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Is Welfare A Bad Thing? Can People Get Decent Paying Jobs If They Want To?
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Posted 3/20/15
All of the talk about how it raises taxes and hurts business makes no since to me. They say that the tax raises necessary prevents people from being hired, but the inverse is also true; if more people were hired, fewer would be on welfare programs and taxes could decrease. As social creatures, humans depend on and rely on each other to survive. As intelligent beings, humans should be accredited to support when needed. Welfare is has good intentions and the issues people have with it seem overblown.

I have never looked into the statistics, but I believe that most of the people on those programs actually do need the support. It is just that those who abuse the system are noticed more. The same is true for politics, the minority hold extremist values but the media gives them more attention.
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Posted 3/20/15
If anyone state here that "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" Marxism maxim is wrong.
Lets remember that property is the base of the modern freedom. and welfare can only exist like a base of early adoption of people getting in the cycle of economics.
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Posted 3/20/15 , edited 3/20/15

IngramIV wrote:

If anyone state here that "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" Marxism maxim is wrong.
Lets remember that property is the base of the modern freedom. and welfare can only exist like a base of early adoption of people getting in the cycle of economics.


blanket statements are rarely worth much, this holds true for the above as well.

there are extremely few pure economies in the world for a reason, truth is any ideology by itself will never work, they are inherently flawed by their very nature, they are ideals in a world that is anything but ideal, square peg, round hole.

also the base of modern freedoms stem from various civilizations, of which many had very different ideas of "property" than we do today, many of these ideals carry over to modern societies as well, in some countries you never actually own a plot of land, only the permanent right of use, in others not even that and despite that all of the societies where this hold true still fit within the modern world.

personally i think you are right when you say social security should be primarily about rehabilitation, but i also think there should be place for those that dont have other options, human decency and what it does for society is worth more to me than the financial strain such a system might have.
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Posted 3/20/15

PWRofInk wrote:

All of the talk about how it raises taxes and hurts business makes no since to me. They say that the tax raises necessary prevents people from being hired, but the inverse is also true; if more people were hired, fewer would be on welfare programs and taxes could decrease. As social creatures, humans depend on and rely on each other to survive. As intelligent beings, humans should be accredited to support when needed. Welfare is has good intentions and the issues people have with it seem overblown.

I have never looked into the statistics, but I believe that most of the people on those programs actually do need the support. It is just that those who abuse the system are noticed more. The same is true for politics, the minority hold extremist values but the media gives them more attention.


The thing a lot of anti-welfare people seem to forget, which touches on what you're saying, is that welfare in the US as it is largely pays out to people already working one or more jobs for companies which pay absolutely minimum wage and engage in shady practices to avoid raises or benefits. Often while raking in multi-millions or multi-billions in profit. Tax money is literally being used to subsidize large corporations so they don't have to pay anywhere near a living wage.

Most people on welfare are also on it for less than a year before leaving the system; people on it for years at a time are in the minority, and people defrauding the system are next to non-existent. Companies and politicians defrauding the system and wasting tax payer money are much more common and much more of a problem than someone who might get away with a few thousand dollars of stolen money.

Welfare prevents people from being outright cast aside by society and lets them get their feet back under them. This is good because it allows them to recover from what's often a temporary situation and eventually contribute back to the system. Leaving people to fend for themselves when they have neither food nor money nor shelter also drains way more money from the system than welfare does. Such people are more likely to get sick and be sick longer before going to a clinic. Since ERs can't turn people away, they have to eat the cost of an illness that, while fast and cheap to treat on onset, has progressed further and is in need of more expensive treatment.

I don't know why people are so focused on the people with the least amount of power and money instead of those who have more than enough and abuse loopholes to sit on money that they will never touch. No one needs hundreds of millions or more dollars to live comfortably. Not when poverty is a growing problem and critical infrastructure is in massive need of repair or replacement (average age of bridges in the US: 42; number in dire need of repair: 65,605; number that are at high risk of collapse: 7,795).

Nevermind the companies which are allowed to horde billions while its workers have to work multiple jobs and utilize welfare just to scrape by with the skin of their teeth.

As far as risk to the economy goes, welfare is pretty low on the list.
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Posted 3/20/15 , edited 3/20/15
If we could create more public sector jobs for those who have no jobs or education...

Then welfare wouldn't be that nessasary would it?
Welfare is just a short term solution that doesn't actually fix the jobless rate. However, creating more jobs is harder than giving people welfare. So the government takes the easy route
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Posted 3/20/15

HuastecoOtaku wrote:

I know this single mom who works 40+ hours a week in a restaurant and still doesn't make enough to cover her costs. She gets welfare to help her out. I have no problems with people like her.
The real jerks are the ones who drive luxury cars and use food stamps. I used to see it all the time at my former job.


I know what you're talking about. I'm friends with a former classmate on Facebook who made a status saying, "I got a food stamp card (three laughing emojis) Stoner snack card." This is also the same guy who shows off pictures of his new shoes and car. If you can afford the luxury of lighting one up every day (he often makes statuses talking about his "good kush") then why do you need the card? I really doubt he grows his own.
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Posted 3/20/15 , edited 3/21/15

karmaside wrote:


silversongwriter wrote:

If we could create more public sector jobs for those who have no jobs or education...

Then welfare wouldn't be that nessasary would it?


The elderly, disabled, people with bad work history, people with felonies, the list goes on.

Sure, we should try to make jobs for everyone but realistically its help these people or let them die off.


Well... I'm talking specifically about those able to work. Those exceptions are different.
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Posted 3/20/15 , edited 3/20/15
A lot of people do take advantage of welfare. But it's true that a lot of people don't make enough to make ends meet. People aren't getting paid as much and opportunity for raises aren't as frequent as before either. You have to do what you have to to eat and survive..

If there was no welfare program I'm sure crime and homeless rates would be up, lol.



On another note, I read on yahoo news recently that unemployment rates are down, but it's also true that that number shrank a certain amount because people stopped looking for employment.
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Posted 3/20/15 , edited 3/20/15

megahobbit wrote:

No its not people tend to ignore the fact that while a small minority of people cheat welfare a large majority need it to live.

I don't fall into that Libertarian BS of earning your right to basic necessitates. People trying to justify there own short sighted greed.


What''s wrong with being greedy? I should be able to keep what I earn, neither you or anyone has a right to the contents of my wallet.

I'm the one who worked for it, and you were not there to help, if I wanted to wipe my behind with my paycheck, who's right is it to stop me?

People like to jump up and say "stay out of our bedrooms!" which I concur, but guess what? stay out of my bank account!

Just like anyone shouldn't have to Justify their private life, I shouldn't have to justify where I think my money should end up.

Strangers lives mean nothing to me, I don't know them, and therefore I owe them nothing. As we type, people are dying, getting beaten, having a heart attack, ect.. guess what? I hear none of it, it's a pitched black abyss to me, I've never met these poor saps, I don't care what happens to them, just as they don't care what happens to me.

I only care about me, my family, and close friends, everyone else are just white noise.

The more cash I get to keep, the more of a safety net I can build for those I love.

Why am I wrong?
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Posted 3/20/15

DarkFrostX wrote:


megahobbit wrote:

No its not people tend to ignore the fact that while a small minority of people cheat welfare a large majority need it to live.

I don't fall into that Libertarian BS of earning your right to basic necessitates. People trying to justify there own short sighted greed.


What''s wrong with being greedy? I should be able to keep what I earn, neither you or anyone has a right to the contents of my wallet.

I'm the one who worked for it, and you were not there to help, if I wanted to wipe my behind with my paycheck, who's right is it to stop me?

People like to jump up and say "stay out of our bedrooms!" which I concur, but guess what? stay out of my bank account!

Just like anyone shouldn't have to Justify their private life, I shouldn't have to justify where I think my money should end up.

Strangers lives mean nothing to me, I don't know them, and therefore I owe them nothing. As we type, people are dying, getting beaten, having a heart attack, ect.. guess what? I hear none of it, it' a pitched black abyss to me, I've never met these poor saps, I don't care what happens to them, just as they don't care what happens to me.

I only care about me, my family, and close friends, everyone else are just white noise.

The more cash I get to keep, the more of a safety net I can build for those I love.

Why am I wrong?


Well at least your honest about being a douchebag. I can respect that but Its scary to know there is someone out with as little empathy and compassion as you.
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Posted 3/20/15

DarkFrostX wrote:


megahobbit wrote:

No its not people tend to ignore the fact that while a small minority of people cheat welfare a large majority need it to live.

I don't fall into that Libertarian BS of earning your right to basic necessitates. People trying to justify there own short sighted greed.


What''s wrong with being greedy? I should be able to keep what I earn, neither you or anyone has a right to the contents of my wallet.

I'm the one who worked for it, and you were not there to help, if I wanted to wipe my ass with my paycheck as if it were toilet paper, who's right is it to stop me?

People like to jump up and say "stay out of our bedrooms!" which I concur, but guess what? stay out of my fucking bank account!

Just like anyone shouldn't have to Justify their sex life, I shouldn't have to justify why I think I should be able to choose where I think my money should end up.

Strangers lives mean nothing to me, I don't know them, and therefore I owe them nothing. As we type, people are dying, getting beaten, being raped, having a heart attack, ect.. guess what? I hear none of it, it' a pitched black abyss to me, I've never met these poor saps, I don't care what happens to them, just as they don't care what happens to me.

I only care about me, my family, and close friends, everyone else are just white noise.

The more cash I get to keep, the more of a safety net I can build for those I love.

Why am I wrong?


You're wrong because you're missing the bigger picture. The money you didn't spend on welfare doesn't necessarily go directly into your pocket to increase your wealth, end of story. Just as there is a cost for getting struggling citizens back on their feet, there is also a cost associated with simply letting your citizens die.
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Posted 3/20/15
And if life ever goes south for him, he'll be among the loudest begging for support.
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Posted 3/20/15 , edited 3/20/15

DarkFrostX wrote:

What''s wrong with being greedy? I should be able to keep what I earn, neither you or anyone has a right to the contents of my wallet.

I'm the one who worked for it, and you were not there to help, if I wanted to wipe my behind with my paycheck, who's right is it to stop me?

People like to jump up and say "stay out of our bedrooms!" which I concur, but guess what? stay out of my bank account!

Just like anyone shouldn't have to Justify their private life, I shouldn't have to justify where I think my money should end up.

Strangers lives mean nothing to me, I don't know them, and therefore I owe them nothing. As we type, people are dying, getting beaten, having a heart attack, ect.. guess what? I hear none of it, it's a pitched black abyss to me, I've never met these poor saps, I don't care what happens to them, just as they don't care what happens to me.

I only care about me, my family, and close friends, everyone else are just white noise.

The more cash I get to keep, the more of a safety net I can build for those I love.

Why am I wrong?


I can kind of see where you're coming from. Human beings have a natural instinct to be greedy and protect loved ones.

It's up to the person and their values to be generous to strangers at will. Doing so is just a plus to society, and I don't look down on people who try to "mind their own business."
However, I do admire and respect people who are kind to everyone and aspire to do so myself. If everyone would be kind to each other, the world would be happier. But I understand not 100% of the population will do so, and shouldn't be forced to. It's up to them.
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Posted 3/20/15 , edited 3/20/15

megahobbit wrote:


DarkFrostX wrote:


megahobbit wrote:

No its not people tend to ignore the fact that while a small minority of people cheat welfare a large majority need it to live.

I don't fall into that Libertarian BS of earning your right to basic necessitates. People trying to justify there own short sighted greed.


What''s wrong with being greedy? I should be able to keep what I earn, neither you or anyone has a right to the contents of my wallet.

I'm the one who worked for it, and you were not there to help, if I wanted to wipe my behind with my paycheck, who's right is it to stop me?

People like to jump up and say "stay out of our bedrooms!" which I concur, but guess what? stay out of my bank account!

Just like anyone shouldn't have to Justify their private life, I shouldn't have to justify where I think my money should end up.

Strangers lives mean nothing to me, I don't know them, and therefore I owe them nothing. As we type, people are dying, getting beaten, having a heart attack, ect.. guess what? I hear none of it, it' a pitched black abyss to me, I've never met these poor saps, I don't care what happens to them, just as they don't care what happens to me.

I only care about me, my family, and close friends, everyone else are just white noise.

The more cash I get to keep, the more of a safety net I can build for those I love.

Why am I wrong?


Well at least your honest about being a douchebag. I can respect that but Its scary to know there is someone out with as little empathy and compassion as you.


]I only care about me, my family, and close friends

Is that not empathy? just because I don't care for strangers means I don't feel? If you were someone I knew and trust, I would have empathy towards you, yet, I don't.

I don't see me being a douche bag at all, I'm just saying how most people on this planet are.

Right now my stomach hurts due to indigestion, do you care?
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Posted 3/20/15 , edited 3/20/15

DarkFrostX wrote:


megahobbit wrote:


DarkFrostX wrote:


megahobbit wrote:

No its not people tend to ignore the fact that while a small minority of people cheat welfare a large majority need it to live.

I don't fall into that Libertarian BS of earning your right to basic necessitates. People trying to justify there own short sighted greed.


What''s wrong with being greedy? I should be able to keep what I earn, neither you or anyone has a right to the contents of my wallet.

I'm the one who worked for it, and you were not there to help, if I wanted to wipe my behind with my paycheck, who's right is it to stop me?

People like to jump up and say "stay out of our bedrooms!" which I concur, but guess what? stay out of my bank account!

Just like anyone shouldn't have to Justify their private life, I shouldn't have to justify where I think my money should end up.

Strangers lives mean nothing to me, I don't know them, and therefore I owe them nothing. As we type, people are dying, getting beaten, having a heart attack, ect.. guess what? I hear none of it, it' a pitched black abyss to me, I've never met these poor saps, I don't care what happens to them, just as they don't care what happens to me.

I only care about me, my family, and close friends, everyone else are just white noise.

The more cash I get to keep, the more of a safety net I can build for those I love.

Why am I wrong?


Well at least your honest about being a douchebag. I can respect that but Its scary to know there is someone out with as little empathy and compassion as you.


[quote]I only care about me, my family, and close friends


Is that not empathy? just because I don't care for strangers means I don't feel? If you were someone I knew and trust, I would have empathy towards you, yet, I don't.

I don't see me being a douche bag at all, I'm just saying how most people on this planet are.

Right now my stomach hurts due to indigestion, do you care?

Look there a difference between me not caring about your stomach hurting(try mints or ginger ale) and you not caring about people dying in the street. You have empathy(which is why a specified little) but I dont know someone as brazenly honest in there "I dont give a crap that people are dying and cant make ends meet" attitude. I could try to play to what empathy you do have (ie: what if your family member was dying and you didnt have enough money to help them out), I could try to play to the idea that society is generally safer and healthier with less poverty, or I could be incredibly petty by making a comment about how 2edgy4you your argument is. Im going to do none of those and say that while I respect you for being honest about your viewpoint and not cloaking it in the usual stupid arguments libertarians use you show a startlingly scary attitude about life.
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