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Is Welfare A Bad Thing? Can People Get Decent Paying Jobs If They Want To?
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Posted 3/20/15 , edited 3/20/15

DarkFrostX wrote:


kingjonnyoftown wrote:

Everyone deserves the means to live their life. Current means/eligibility tested welfare systems need to be replaced with an unconditional minimum income for everyone. As technology advances, there are going to be less and less jobs. Already there are lots of people wasting their lives away in jobs that could be replaced by machines, or just not done at all. These jobs only still exist because of the outdated idea that everyone should have to earn a living by generating profit, and that the only worthwhile activity is activity that generates profit.

An unconditional minimum income would eradicate poverty, cost less than current welfare systems, improve public mental and physical health, and when it's been tested in the past, it even decreases unemployment, since more people can afford to work less hours. Every time it's been tested, it's also caused economic growth in general, by increasing everyone's spending power.

Libertarians and other conservatives are petty, greedy children who have obviously lived incredibly sheltered lives, and their wilful ignorance is holding back the advancement of civilisation.


Someone has yet to explain to me how greed is a bad thing? why are people pushing their morality on to other people?

Is keeping what I earn and spending it on what I want such a bad thing?

Advancement of civilization? that's subjective, some view advancements in many different lights, there is no "advancement" it's all opinionated.


Ultimately we live on a world with finite resources and everyone wants to live.

If you not sold on the moral reasons then perhaps one centered on greed itself will be more convincing.

If the wealth gap between the richest and poorest becomes too great and the poorest can not afford to live society will begin to break. People who are starving or whos children are starving will become first desperate and resort to crime which will naturally be targeted at people with means. If this continues long enough or the population becomes even more desperate civilisation cracks, the many abandon humanity tear down the few and madame guillotine comes a calling. Its pretty fucked up and very messy when this happens so keeping the population at a minimum level of standard of living is cheaper and safer in the long run.
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Posted 3/20/15

DarkFrostX wrote:


megahobbit wrote:


DarkFrostX wrote:


kingjonnyoftown wrote:

Everyone deserves the means to live their life. Current means/eligibility tested welfare systems need to be replaced with an unconditional minimum income for everyone. As technology advances, there are going to be less and less jobs. Already there are lots of people wasting their lives away in jobs that could be replaced by machines, or just not done at all. These jobs only still exist because of the outdated idea that everyone should have to earn a living by generating profit, and that the only worthwhile activity is activity that generates profit.

An unconditional minimum income would eradicate poverty, cost less than current welfare systems, improve public mental and physical health, and when it's been tested in the past, it even decreases unemployment, since more people can afford to work less hours. Every time it's been tested, it's also caused economic growth in general, by increasing everyone's spending power.

Libertarians and other conservatives are petty, greedy children who have obviously lived incredibly sheltered lives, and their wilful ignorance is holding back the advancement of civilisation.


Someone has yet to explain to me how greed is a bad thing? why are people pushing their morality on to other people?

Is keeping what I earn and spending it on what I want such a bad thing?

Advancement of civilization? that's subjective, some view advancements in many different lights, there is no "advancement" it's all opinionated.



Have you ever read A Christmas Carol?

Yes, they're sweet, but unrealistic to the world we live in.


Im gonna stop posting because are post are getting reported to the mods like hotcakes and I want to stay out of hotwater.


Welcome to Crunchyroll, it's just a someone going around and troll reporting, the funny thing is, they will be the ones to get banned, not us. Trust me when i say you're not in any trouble (as long as you follow the rules), I've been getting reported on for days now, and only one of my post were warned two days, but I will admit, it was pretty "rated R" what I wrote.


I was referring to the Christmas Carol the one with Scrooge and stuff. My point being is that no matter what Ayn Rand tells you greed is inherently harmful to the people around you. Every society ever has agreed upon this. I repeat every single one. Im not forcing my morals upon you when literally the majority of literature, art, society, and culture agrees greed is wrong.

Problem is you seem to accept what is wrong about greed ie: unwillingness to help people who dont affect you personally and dont seem to see the problem with it.
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Posted 3/20/15
Well the alternative is pretty much social darwinism. Which I am staunchly against.
So no, I don't think it's a bad thing.
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Posted 3/20/15 , edited 3/20/15

megahobbit wrote:


DarkFrostX wrote:


megahobbit wrote:


DarkFrostX wrote:


kingjonnyoftown wrote:

Everyone deserves the means to live their life. Current means/eligibility tested welfare systems need to be replaced with an unconditional minimum income for everyone. As technology advances, there are going to be less and less jobs. Already there are lots of people wasting their lives away in jobs that could be replaced by machines, or just not done at all. These jobs only still exist because of the outdated idea that everyone should have to earn a living by generating profit, and that the only worthwhile activity is activity that generates profit.

An unconditional minimum income would eradicate poverty, cost less than current welfare systems, improve public mental and physical health, and when it's been tested in the past, it even decreases unemployment, since more people can afford to work less hours. Every time it's been tested, it's also caused economic growth in general, by increasing everyone's spending power.

Libertarians and other conservatives are petty, greedy children who have obviously lived incredibly sheltered lives, and their wilful ignorance is holding back the advancement of civilisation.


Someone has yet to explain to me how greed is a bad thing? why are people pushing their morality on to other people?

Is keeping what I earn and spending it on what I want such a bad thing?

Advancement of civilization? that's subjective, some view advancements in many different lights, there is no "advancement" it's all opinionated.



Have you ever read A Christmas Carol?

Yes, they're sweet, but unrealistic to the world we live in.


Im gonna stop posting because are post are getting reported to the mods like hotcakes and I want to stay out of hotwater.


Welcome to Crunchyroll, it's just a someone going around and troll reporting, the funny thing is, they will be the ones to get banned, not us. Trust me when i say you're not in any trouble (as long as you follow the rules), I've been getting reported on for days now, and only one of my post were warned two days, but I will admit, it was pretty "rated R" what I wrote.


I was referring to the Christmas Carol the one with Scrooge and stuff. My point being is that no matter what Ayn Rand tells you greed is inherently harmful to the people around you. Every society ever has agreed upon this. I repeat every single one. Im not forcing my morals upon you when literally the majority of literature, art, society, and culture agrees greed is wrong.

Problem is you seem to accept what is wrong about greed ie: unwillingness to help people who dont affect you personally and dont seem to see the problem with it.


Society's moral compass can change, shall we take a trip down memory lane to about 10 years ago? gay marriages were icky for most parts of world (still is to a certain extent), and something people pretended didn't exist, now they're starting to become the norm, witch hunts were also the norm for hundreds of years among other long list of things....

You're right, every historical/present society is against me on this one, but who is to say that will not change as well? society is always changing, one can only imagine the future.
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Posted 3/20/15
I know people whose parents have worked multiple jobs and still depended on welfare. It's not that simple to just be rich. Sometimes welfare is necessary but there are a lot of people that take advantage of it. I hear a lot of my friends talking about they want to get on it (even though they work and get FA from school) while I'm sitting here plotting and struggling trying to be able to live without it.
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Posted 3/20/15

DarkFrostX wrote:


megahobbit wrote:


DarkFrostX wrote:


megahobbit wrote:


DarkFrostX wrote:


kingjonnyoftown wrote:

Everyone deserves the means to live their life. Current means/eligibility tested welfare systems need to be replaced with an unconditional minimum income for everyone. As technology advances, there are going to be less and less jobs. Already there are lots of people wasting their lives away in jobs that could be replaced by machines, or just not done at all. These jobs only still exist because of the outdated idea that everyone should have to earn a living by generating profit, and that the only worthwhile activity is activity that generates profit.

An unconditional minimum income would eradicate poverty, cost less than current welfare systems, improve public mental and physical health, and when it's been tested in the past, it even decreases unemployment, since more people can afford to work less hours. Every time it's been tested, it's also caused economic growth in general, by increasing everyone's spending power.

Libertarians and other conservatives are petty, greedy children who have obviously lived incredibly sheltered lives, and their wilful ignorance is holding back the advancement of civilisation.


Someone has yet to explain to me how greed is a bad thing? why are people pushing their morality on to other people?

Is keeping what I earn and spending it on what I want such a bad thing?

Advancement of civilization? that's subjective, some view advancements in many different lights, there is no "advancement" it's all opinionated.



Have you ever read A Christmas Carol?

Yes, they're sweet, but unrealistic to the world we live in.


Im gonna stop posting because are post are getting reported to the mods like hotcakes and I want to stay out of hotwater.


Welcome to Crunchyroll, it's just a someone going around and troll reporting, the funny thing is, they will be the ones to get banned, not us. Trust me when i say you're not in any trouble (as long as you follow the rules), I've been getting reported on for days now, and only one of my post were warned two days, but I will admit, it was pretty "rated R" what I wrote.


I was referring to the Christmas Carol the one with Scrooge and stuff. My point being is that no matter what Ayn Rand tells you greed is inherently harmful to the people around you. Every society ever has agreed upon this. I repeat every single one. Im not forcing my morals upon you when literally the majority of literature, art, society, and culture agrees greed is wrong.

Problem is you seem to accept what is wrong about greed ie: unwillingness to help people who dont affect you personally and dont seem to see the problem with it.


Societies moral compasses can change, shall we take a trip down memory lane to about 10 years ago? gay marriages were icky, and something people pretend did exist, now they're starting to become the norm, witch hunts were also the norm for hundreds of years among other long list of things....

You're right, every major society is against me on this one, but who is to say that will not change as well? society is always changing, one can only imagine the future.


I doubt it libertarians will ever get a major foothold in the foreseeable future. Things have shown signs of becoming more left leaning economically just a matter of time before it happens.
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Posted 3/20/15

rosebudpony wrote:

There is a difference between tyranny and someone just not caring about people they don't know. While I don't agree with DarkFrost's way of life, they're not really hurting anyone unless they're making it impossible or difficult for other people to get the resources they need. It's their conscience, not mine.


Which is something I would never do, now that's heartless in my book.

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Posted 3/20/15

HuastecoOtaku wrote:

I know this single mom who works 40+ hours a week in a restaurant and still doesn't make enough to cover her costs. She gets welfare to help her out. I have no problems with people like her.
The real jerks are the ones who drive luxury cars and use food stamps. I used to see it all the time at my former job.


As of 2001 about two thirds of persons aged 20-65 at some point in their lives lived in a household that received some form of meanstested welfare program. [doi: 10.1093/sw/47.3.237] I doubt this number has changed since then. Based on that, it's safe to assume many of those nicer cars were likely bought in better times before they needed the assistance. Most people only use it for a few years.
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Posted 3/20/15 , edited 3/20/15

megahobbit wrote:


DarkFrostX wrote:


megahobbit wrote:


DarkFrostX wrote:


megahobbit wrote:


DarkFrostX wrote:


kingjonnyoftown wrote:

Everyone deserves the means to live their life. Current means/eligibility tested welfare systems need to be replaced with an unconditional minimum income for everyone. As technology advances, there are going to be less and less jobs. Already there are lots of people wasting their lives away in jobs that could be replaced by machines, or just not done at all. These jobs only still exist because of the outdated idea that everyone should have to earn a living by generating profit, and that the only worthwhile activity is activity that generates profit.

An unconditional minimum income would eradicate poverty, cost less than current welfare systems, improve public mental and physical health, and when it's been tested in the past, it even decreases unemployment, since more people can afford to work less hours. Every time it's been tested, it's also caused economic growth in general, by increasing everyone's spending power.

Libertarians and other conservatives are petty, greedy children who have obviously lived incredibly sheltered lives, and their wilful ignorance is holding back the advancement of civilisation.


Someone has yet to explain to me how greed is a bad thing? why are people pushing their morality on to other people?

Is keeping what I earn and spending it on what I want such a bad thing?

Advancement of civilization? that's subjective, some view advancements in many different lights, there is no "advancement" it's all opinionated.



Have you ever read A Christmas Carol?

Yes, they're sweet, but unrealistic to the world we live in.


Im gonna stop posting because are post are getting reported to the mods like hotcakes and I want to stay out of hotwater.


Welcome to Crunchyroll, it's just a someone going around and troll reporting, the funny thing is, they will be the ones to get banned, not us. Trust me when i say you're not in any trouble (as long as you follow the rules), I've been getting reported on for days now, and only one of my post were warned two days, but I will admit, it was pretty "rated R" what I wrote.


I was referring to the Christmas Carol the one with Scrooge and stuff. My point being is that no matter what Ayn Rand tells you greed is inherently harmful to the people around you. Every society ever has agreed upon this. I repeat every single one. Im not forcing my morals upon you when literally the majority of literature, art, society, and culture agrees greed is wrong.

Problem is you seem to accept what is wrong about greed ie: unwillingness to help people who dont affect you personally and dont seem to see the problem with it.


Societies moral compasses can change, shall we take a trip down memory lane to about 10 years ago? gay marriages were icky, and something people pretend did exist, now they're starting to become the norm, witch hunts were also the norm for hundreds of years among other long list of things....

You're right, every major society is against me on this one, but who is to say that will not change as well? society is always changing, one can only imagine the future.


I doubt it libertarians will ever get a major foothold in the foreseeable future. Things have shown signs of becoming more left leaning economically just a matter of time before it happens.


I never said it would be in the foreseeable future, could be a hundred years from now, could be a thousand, things can change rather quickly if given the right circumstances. Let's say a hypothetical world war breaks out, it wipes out 90% of the world population (again, purely hypothetical and unlikely) and who are alive are mostly conservatives, they can rebuild the world as they see fit.

We have no way of knowing what the future holds, It's highly unpredictable, part of what makes life so interesting, and at the same time, terrifying.
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Posted 3/20/15

megahobbit wrote:

No its not people tend to ignore the fact that while a small minority of people cheat welfare a large majority need it to live.

I don't fall into that Libertarian BS of earning your right to basic necessitates. People trying to justify there own short sighted greed.


tell you the truth I DO NOT know how people can make a living making anything under 17$ and hour. Maybe its do to me living in NY and the tax and cost of living is nuts. (and I am not even in the city.) Guess I should be happy I found a job that pays ok in a small town. But I do feel for all the others that have to suffer with 3 jobs just to make it by. Hell even with me making 70k a year, things are still to costly.
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Posted 3/20/15

DarkFrostX wrote:

Which is something I would never do, now that's heartless in my book.



Well, there you go. I'm not Mother Theresa, or to put it better, someone who devotes much of their time to helping people less fortunate than I, so I don't have a right to judge how generous you are.
You're not benefiting your community, but you're not hurting it either. So it's not really a big deal to me.
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Posted 3/20/15 , edited 3/20/15

DarkFrostX
Someone has yet to explain to me how greed is a bad thing? why are people pushing their morality on to other people?

Is keeping what I earn and spending it on what I want such a bad thing?

Advancement of civilization? that's subjective, some view advancements in many different lights, there is no "advancement" it's all opinionated.


Not that you asked me, but on a personal note, it boils down to personal philosophy.
As a humanist, I believe that we should help each other as best as we can and that we should contribute as a collective towards making the world a better place.

Greed is the antithesis of this, as it focuses on the preservation and advancement of the individual rather than the collective as a whole. Which in return slows down progress for humanity and society as a whole.

Not to mention that greedy people tend to become very unlikable, selfish, unsympathetic, callous douchebags. Looking at people like Mitt Romney for instance. People who don't give a crap about what happens to other people and who wants to take away their rights and who wants to remove things like universal health care, welfare or minimum wage just so that they themselves can make more money. So that they can live in decadence while leaving others to suffer and die even though it would barely cost them anything to make it so that it didn't have to be that way.

And that is a way of thinking that I find to be absolutely despicable and disgusting.
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Posted 3/20/15
Welfare... I believe people on welfare are lazy. Get your ass out and apply for jobs. It took me two months to land a second job but I finally have one. If I can have two jobs than these lazy people on welfare can get one.
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Posted 3/20/15 , edited 3/20/15

Syndicaidramon wrote:


DarkFrostX
Someone has yet to explain to me how greed is a bad thing? why are people pushing their morality on to other people?

Is keeping what I earn and spending it on what I want such a bad thing?

Advancement of civilization? that's subjective, some view advancements in many different lights, there is no "advancement" it's all opinionated.


Not that you asked me, but on a personal note, it boils down to personal philosophy.
As a humanist, I believe that we should help each other as best as we can and that we should contribute as a collective towards making the world a better place.

Greed is the antithesis of this, as it focuses on the preservation and advancement of the individual rather than the collective as a whole. Which in return slows down progress for humanity and society as a whole.

Not to mention that greedy people tend to become very unlikable, selfish, unsympathetic, callous douchebags. Looking at people like Mitt Romney for instance. People who don't give a crap about what happens to other people and who wants to take away their rights and who wants to remove things like universal health care, welfare or minimum wage just so that they themselves can make more money. So that they can live in decadence while leaving others to suffer and die even though it would barely cost them anything to make it so that it didn't have to be that way.

And that is a way of thinking that I find to be absolutely despicable and disgusting.


Makes sense, but as you say, it is down to personal philosophy,

Most of what you wrote is very opinionated, and most people can not tell me logically why greed is a bad thing, nor can they use economics to prove their point with out violating another economic school of thought.

Humans are naturally greedy, we all have committed some kind of greed before, even if we did not notice it.

I understand the kind of world people want, but for the most part, it's fantasy.
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Posted 3/20/15

DarkFrostX wrote:

Someone has yet to explain to me how greed is a bad thing? why are people pushing their morality on to other people?

Is keeping what I earn and spending it on what I want such a bad thing?

Advancement of civilization? that's subjective, some view advancements in many different lights, there is no "advancement" it's all opinionated.


I've never liked the argument that I, as an individual citizen, should be allowed to choose which of the government's programs I pay for. Once you've paid your taxes, that money is paid to the government. It is no longer yours. What you, as an individual, would have spent it on is no longer relevant.

When considering how a government should be spending its money, you should be weighing the benefits and deficits that certain types of spending have on society. Much like how I think Crunchyroll should be spending its money in order to continue bringing me the latest in anime, I would prefer that my government spend its money in order to continue providing services that help protect the citizens who live here.

Arguments like, "You can't tell me why greed is a bad thing, therefore it must be okay for me to think that we should do away with welfare," ignore the basic premise. You haven't been able to prove that welfare is bad for society. You're the one pushing your morality onto the government and, by extension, the people who live with you in your society.
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Posted 3/20/15
I do not think welfare is a bad thing, as I mentioned above [doi: 10.1093/sw/47.3.237] 2/3rds of adults end up using one form or another during their lives. Most people who end up using welfare have simply found themselves in a state of flux where they go from relative affluence to relative poverty and bounce back after a few years. It does it's job for those people.

There are also some people who hammock, but I'm not sure how much I care if someone decides to be lazy. The quality of life isn't that great so I couldn't handle it myself, but whatever works for them. Consumer spending is what drives the American economy and people using welfare aren't going to be saving (much) any time soon. The recipients spend it. Some of our customers are our customers because they receive aid, and I am keenly aware of this fact.
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