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Post Reply What's Your Opinion on Firearms and/or The 2nd Amendment?
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27 / M / TX
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Posted 3/23/15

I seriously doubt the average American civilian has any effective counter measures against large numbers of drones, tanks, attack helicopters, jet aircraft or 1.3 professionally trained active servicemen. Face it, an armed uprising would be crushed by the government.


It's like people who constantly bash on the second amendment conveniently forget that the American Revolutionary War ever happened. Context is important when trying to examine the meaning of anything.


you are absolutely correct so, here is what the founding fathers had in mind, an unrifled, single shot flintlock musket.

One thing you need to take into account is if there is ever a civil war how many soldiers would follow orders and fight against their fellow country men. While I agree that there would much damage I also believe thousands if not hundred of thousands of soldiers would flat out refuse to turn their guns on civilians.


You'd be surprised how obedient soldiers when carrying out questionable orders on their "fellow countrymen" or civilians especially when they are "terrorists" "threats to national security" "Un-American" "a threat to liberty" or in the words of Frederick the great "If my soldiers were to begin to think, not one of them would remain in the army"



While I do understand what your saying unless the government took to an extremist position like the nazi's " join us or die, your family falls into suspect" I don't foresee anything of the likes happening in my or my nieces and nephews lifetime either. Worst case if a solider refuses to follow orders a court martial, in nazi Germany bullet to the head or labor camp for the rest of your life.
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42 / Tyrell HQ
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Posted 3/23/15
I'm not a fan of guns. Although I do own a high powered Pellet gun to shoot the raccoons that try to eat my chickens~
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20 / M / Eng Land
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Posted 3/23/15 , edited 3/23/15
Could someone tell me why I see so many English people claim we don't have firearms over here? I must be missing something because I live in England and my dad's livelihood is selling guns. Hell we have gun ranges, clay pigeon shooting and everything over here. Is it just in reference to walking around on the streets with a gun?
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20 / M
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Posted 3/23/15
The amount of broken quotes within these last 2 pages is quite disturbing...

Anyways, as someone mentioned before, an all out war between civilians and military would be impossible. Just like there are good and bad cops, there are good and bad soldiers. A lot would shot civilians with no hesitation if ordered to. But I'm confident a lot more would refuse to fire on civilians on their own native land and would most likely get to defend the civilians. Unless I'm mistaken, soldiers have a right to disobey an order when they have reason to believe the order is unjust. I'm not in the military so I'm not sure how accurate that statement is, but nonetheless, you will surely see a lot of soldiers turning against their bosses if ordered to fight civilians.
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23 / M / UK
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Posted 3/23/15 , edited 3/23/15

J-POP187 wrote:

While I do understand what your saying unless the government took to an extremist position like the nazi's " join us or die, your family falls into suspect" I don't foresee anything of the likes happening in my or my nieces and nephews lifetime either. Worst case if a solider refuses to follow orders a court martial, in nazi Germany bullet to the head or labor camp for the rest of your life.


Civil wars are very bloody affairs and result in extreme or cruel measures being taken and implemented with surprising speed and efficiency especially if the situation is perceived to be desperate. However, I do not see (or want to for that matter) a real civil war occurring in the USA as there are much more peaceful and efficient measures for resolving conflict such as diplomacy or voting in elections.
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26 / M / UK
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Posted 3/23/15

PhantomGundam wrote:

It's funny how British people always say they don't understand the second amendment when they're the reason it exists in the first place. The founding fathers just escaped from a tyrannical king so they put in measures to make sure their new government doesn't become the same as Britain's. If it ever came to that, it would be the citizens that fight back and put the government in its place.

It's like people who constantly bash on the second amendment conveniently forget that the American Revolutionary War ever happened. Context is important when trying to examine the meaning of anything.


Hmm

Yeh 150+ years ago that argument stands.

US Military is the most powerful in the world, it has battleships, nuclear submarines, tanks, armoured vehicles, aircraft carriers, bombers, jets.

Try revolting against your "tyrannical" government with a pistol, you will be blown up by an unmanned drone before you got a chance to take one building.

That argument doesn't stand anymore, this isn't an era of muskets and gunpowder, the world doesn't operate that way anymore.

Also it's not that we forgot about the revolutionary war... we just don't care. No one currently alive was born and fought it, it's a piece of history. We learn about it, but it's hardly something we care about in our every day lives.

The ONLY argument that stands is "I want guns because i like them" NOTHING ELSE
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20 / M
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Posted 3/23/15

Kieran-kun wrote:


Hmm

Yeh 150+ years ago that argument stands.

US Military is the most powerful in the world, it has battleships, nuclear submarines, tanks, armoured vehicles, aircraft carriers, bombers, jets.

Try revolting against your "tyrannical" government with a pistol, you will be blown up by an unmanned drone before you got a chance to take one building.

That argument doesn't stand anymore, this isn't an era of muskets and gunpowder, the world doesn't operate that way anymore.

Also it's not that we forgot about the revolutionary war... we just don't care. No one currently alive was born and fought it, it's a piece of history. We learn about it, but it's hardly something we care about in our every day lives.

The ONLY argument that stands is "I want guns because i like them" NOTHING ELSE


It seems everyone who thinks like this is under the assumption that the overwhelming majority of the military would be willing to attack the very civilians they swore to protect. If a government is so corrupt that civilians actually bother rising up against it, do you really believe every soldier would point their guns against them? I have very little faith in both our government AND military and even I think that's unlikely.
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26 / M / UK
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Posted 3/23/15

PhantomGundam wrote:


Kieran-kun wrote:


Hmm

Yeh 150+ years ago that argument stands.

US Military is the most powerful in the world, it has battleships, nuclear submarines, tanks, armoured vehicles, aircraft carriers, bombers, jets.

Try revolting against your "tyrannical" government with a pistol, you will be blown up by an unmanned drone before you got a chance to take one building.

That argument doesn't stand anymore, this isn't an era of muskets and gunpowder, the world doesn't operate that way anymore.

Also it's not that we forgot about the revolutionary war... we just don't care. No one currently alive was born and fought it, it's a piece of history. We learn about it, but it's hardly something we care about in our every day lives.

The ONLY argument that stands is "I want guns because i like them" NOTHING ELSE


It seems everyone who thinks like this is under the assumption that the overwhelming majority of the military would be willing to attack the very civilians they swore to protect. If a government is so corrupt that civilians actually bother rising up against it, do you really believe every soldier would point their guns against them? I have very little faith in both our government AND military and even I think that's unlikely.


I agree with you 100%

HOWEVER, you're making the same assumption that they wouldn't....

The fact is this scenario will never happen as it's hypothetical but neither of us can say for sure what would happen. As such it's not really a powerful argument to support your view.
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20 / M
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Posted 3/23/15

Kieran-kun wrote:


PhantomGundam wrote:


Kieran-kun wrote:


Hmm

Yeh 150+ years ago that argument stands.

US Military is the most powerful in the world, it has battleships, nuclear submarines, tanks, armoured vehicles, aircraft carriers, bombers, jets.

Try revolting against your "tyrannical" government with a pistol, you will be blown up by an unmanned drone before you got a chance to take one building.

That argument doesn't stand anymore, this isn't an era of muskets and gunpowder, the world doesn't operate that way anymore.

Also it's not that we forgot about the revolutionary war... we just don't care. No one currently alive was born and fought it, it's a piece of history. We learn about it, but it's hardly something we care about in our every day lives.

The ONLY argument that stands is "I want guns because i like them" NOTHING ELSE


It seems everyone who thinks like this is under the assumption that the overwhelming majority of the military would be willing to attack the very civilians they swore to protect. If a government is so corrupt that civilians actually bother rising up against it, do you really believe every soldier would point their guns against them? I have very little faith in both our government AND military and even I think that's unlikely.


I agree with you 100%

HOWEVER, you're making the same assumption that they wouldn't....

The fact is this scenario will never happen as it's hypothetical but neither of us can say for sure what would happen. As such it's not really a powerful argument to support your view.


I'm basing my assumptions on basic human nature. Not every soldier comes from a military family. The families of most soldiers are civilians. I doubt you would see many soldiers willing to shoot their own families, friends, neighbors, etc. If ordered to. Even if a soldier has nothing to lose from following such insane orders, a lot of them still have their morals.

If you can show me a modern industrialized nation (North Korea doesn't count) where the military would blindly shoot their own civilians, I guess that would make your argument more credible. It may a hypothetical situation, but that doesn't mean you can't make an educated guess based on how humans normally act. Otherwise there'd be no point in trying to predict how an enemy would move in warfare (which is more or less what this hypothetical scenario is about).
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23 / M / UK
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Posted 3/23/15

DevinKuska wrote:

In response to Nemoskull and Voc666... We are all entitled to our opinions on this subject but I question which country you hail from and which country you currently reside. To say the 2nd amendment is obsolete is to say ALL of the constitution and Bill of rights are obsolete. IF thats the case and your an American citizen I would suggest that you voicing your opinion on the matter is thanks to the first amendment and if its obsolete... why are you exercising it? I am truly troubled by anyone who thinks any part of the cornerstone of this great nation I call home is obsolete. To say as much is to spit in the face of every man, woman, or child who lost their life in the persuit of freedom, and happiness in the United States of America. Further more as a patriot and formerly USMC I take personal offense at this notion. Lastly the 2nd amendment cannot be overruled or removed. This is due to the very clear language used "Shall not be infringed." The language used here has never been debated, its absolute in nature.



To say that the 2nd amendment is obsolete is to say that: the 2nd amendment nothing more. I hate to break it to you but the idea that every person should be allowed to have a gun does have (a lot of potential) flaws. Certain aspects even central aspects of a country or society can and do become obsolete for a variety of reasons. For example we are no longer a hunter gather society (despite being so for nearly two million years) or even an agrarian society (despite being so for around 10,000 years) but an industrial society (and that stretches back a mere 300-200 years).
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30 / M / UK
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Posted 3/23/15 , edited 3/23/15

PhantomGundam

It seems everyone who thinks like this is under the assumption that the overwhelming majority of the military would be willing to attack the very civilians they swore to protect. If a government is so corrupt that civilians actually bother rising up against it, do you really believe every soldier would point their guns against them? I have very little faith in both our government AND military and even I think that's unlikely.


I don't envisage anything so clear cut, I can see people convinced of their governments own tyranny taking up arms but initially this could well be a fringe position rather than a mass uprising. Soldiers deployed in a peacekeeping role historically handle even unarmed protesters very poorly, If the soldiers come under fire they are not going to be conflicted there going to return fire. A government doesn't have to send them to kill and putdown a uprising they just have to put the soldiers on the ground to protect the public and wait for some idiot to start firing. After abu ghraib happened I have very little faith in soldiers deciding that their orders are illegal. Its unreasonable to expect them to their trained to obey orders after all we don't exactly encourage independent thought but instead obedience and trust in the chain of command.

Please understand I think if a democratic society decides they want to have guns for personal defence/hunting/fun/whatever reason its their decision to make, I'm just unconvinced its going to be what saves you from tyranny in modern times.
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21 / M / Alaska
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Posted 3/23/15
i think everyone should be allowed to own guns, rpg's tanks, ect and then everyone would go on a daily killing spree like on GTA online but we wouldn't respawn so the population would be reduced in random areas
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21 / M
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Posted 3/23/15
I'm all for the 2nd amendment. Really, it doesn't matter if guns are illegal or not, if an area is doing well both socially and economically, crime will be low regardless. If that is the case, then anyone without a criminal record should be allowed to have one. I mean, guns are cool. They always were and always will be. Action movies and video games wouldn't be doing so well if they weren't. If someone wants one and doesn't want to hurt anyone with it, then leave him alone.
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22 / M / AZ
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Posted 3/23/15
I'm keeping my guns in hands reach ready to use when needed. The 2nd amendment isn't going anywhere and if you don't like it you can go straight back to England or wherever you came from.
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25 / M / New York City
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Posted 3/23/15
I don't really mind ppl owning guns or the second amendment, but I prefer if there was some regulations to prevent some potential dangerous ppl from getting a gun. I believe that it will be a minor hassle to everyone if it means that certain tragedies can be avoided. Something like background check or mandatory class. MOST ppl are responsible enough to own a gun but there are few ppl that probably should have one. Also if there was a military threat to mainland U.S.A that would have need for civilian help, the gov't would prolly create militia and armed them...is what I think.
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