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Post Reply Why censor nudity and yet graphic dismemberment is ok?
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Posted 3/25/15

LoomyTheBrew wrote:


maxgale wrote:

The sheer amount of ignorance spouted in regard to Japanese culture and history by those always blaming "the West" is unfortunate. Its like, fine, the only thing they are interested in are the half naked cartoon girls, but please don't pretend to actually be some authority on anything to do with the actual country and its people.


Well said sir, well said.

It's always the West's fault. We are horrible people and should feel ashamed to be associated with them!




Totally! I mean, it was such a perfect country, a veritable paradise! Russo-Japanese war? Rape of Nanking?

Trifles!
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Posted 3/25/15 , edited 3/27/15

maxgale wrote:


mnmike wrote:


biscuitnote wrote:


Le_Dom wrote:


biscuitnote wrote:

Seeing naked bodies offends peoples christian values. Violence on the other hand is integral part of the Christian faith. The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies!Nahum 1:2-8 NLT I will sweep away everything in all your land," says the LORD. "I will sweep away both people and animals alike. Even the birds of the air and the fish in the sea will die. I will reduce the wicked to heaps of rubble, along with the rest of humanity," says the LORD. "I will crush Judah and Jerusalem with my fist and destroy every last trace of their Baal worship. I will put an end to all the idolatrous priests, so that even the memory of them will disappear. For they go up to their roofs and bow to the sun, moon, and stars. They claim to follow the LORD, but then they worship Molech, too. So now I will destroy them! And I will destroy those who used to worship me but now no longer do. They no longer ask for the LORD's guidance or seek my blessings." (Zephaniah 1:2-6 NLT)


Except that less than 1% of the japanese population is christian...


Before Japan had contact with the west they were much more sexually open.


Wow, what evidence do you have of this? Are you sure you're not just believing in a past that never actually existed outside of the imagination of contemporary movie and anime makers?

Christianity came to Japan shortly after the first Portuguese merchants about 1550. It enjoyed about a 50 year period of flourishing (Oda Nobunaga associated it with modernity and westernization, both of which he generally supported), before the Tokogawa Shogunate cracked down hard on it. After that, it steadily declined--both in numbers and influence--hitting a nadir during the period when Japan closed itself off from the West almost completely, before rebounding (slightly) into what it is now after Japan reopened itself in the mid-late 1800s.

So, you are arguing that during that 50 year period, over 400 years ago, Japan's centuries old cultural traditions about sex were completely overthrown, and since then have not evolved? Umm, you're going to need to give some sort of evidence, because otherwise that assertion doesn't pass the laugh test.

It's always nice to assert that pre-modern cultures were somehow more sexually liberated. In fact, that's the exception, not the rule. The general trend is for powerful men want to monopolize and lock-up their women--and part of that is forbidding sex outside of cultural institutions that those powerful men control access to (like marriage). That's not just a Christian or a Western thought. Unfortunately, it's human nature.




The sheer amount of ignorance spouted in regard to Japanese culture and history by those always blaming "the West" is unfortunate. Its like, fine, the only thing they are interested in are the half naked cartoon girls, but please don't pretend to actually be some authority on anything to do with the actual country and its people.



.....I think some people just really, really don't like christianity and want to blame it for everything sometimes, because it didn't even enter my head as an answer for this threads topic/question. In any case, my answer was going to be... "without censoring, i'm pretty sure less people would buy the uncensored blu rays, so there. question answered. People will buy the blu rays for the boobies and plot"
The End
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Posted 3/25/15

Fried_Twinky wrote:



.....I think some people just really, really don't like christianity and want to blame it for everything sometimes, because it didn't even enter my head as an answer for this threads topic/question. In any case, my answer was going to be... "without censoring, i'm pretty sure less people would buy the uncensored blu rays, so there. question answered. People will buy the blu rays for the boobies and plot"
The End


Yeah, its been a prob since early days of the fandom, helped in no small part by how most anime treats Christianity. Instead of owning up to things like government-sanctioned massacres of Christians, Japan instead gives "Evil Pope Final Boss No. 474559088" as the portrayal of the faith of a third of the globe.
mnmike 
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Posted 3/25/15

Luggage10 wrote:


mnmike wrote:



Wow, what evidence do you have of this? Are you sure you're not just believing in a past that never actually existed outside of the imagination of contemporary movie and anime makers?

Christianity came to Japan shortly after the first Portuguese merchants about 1550. It enjoyed about a 50 year period of flourishing (Oda Nobunaga associated it with modernity and westernization, both of which he generally supported), before the Tokogawa Shogunate cracked down hard on it. After that, it steadily declined--both in numbers and influence--hitting a nadir during the period when Japan closed itself off from the West almost completely, before rebounding (slightly) into what it is now after Japan reopened itself in the mid-late 1800s.

So, you are arguing that during that 50 year period, over 400 years ago, Japan's centuries old cultural traditions about sex were completely overthrown, and since then have not evolved? Umm, you're going to need to give some sort of evidence, because otherwise that assertion doesn't pass the laugh test.

It's always nice to assert that pre-modern cultures were somehow more sexually liberated. In fact, that's the exception, not the rule. The general trend is for powerful men want to monopolize and lock-up their women--and part of that is forbidding sex outside of cultural institutions that those powerful men control access to (like marriage). That's not just a Christian or a Western thought. Unfortunately, it's human nature.


But Japan was much more sexually open in the past, although the time frame you quoted is a bit off. True, they came in contact with the West in the 1500s, but they weren't truly open to the West until the Meiji Restoration in the late 1870s, and that's when the prudishness got imported. Contact with a couple Christian merchants wasn't going to change Japanese cultural traditions, but Japan wanting to become a world power would. It's a very image-obsessed country, so it wanted to be respected. Unfortunately, the nations it wanted to be respected by (the West) were much more prudish and saw Japan as backwards with regards to cultural attitudes towards sex. So Japan tried to "fix" this "backwardness," which did take some time, but you can definitely see the effects.

As for evidence, you can look at the abundance of classical Japanese art that many would consider pornography today (even tentacle porn, see The Dream of the Fisherman's Wife ). So, so many pornographic woodblock prints (which started to decline around the end of the 19th century, coinciding with Japan's new openness). You can look at the sheer amount of sex in The Tale of Genji , one of the oldest and most influential Japanese novels (and in several other books written around that time). And you can look at mixed bathing, which no one had a problem with until the West told them it was wrong, and then it was banned. This isn't to say pre-Meiji Japan was some sort of free-love paradise, but in general pre-Meiji attitudes towards sex were more similar to, say, modern Europe than modern Japan.



Of course, I can show you plenty of Western art and literature examples from the same period that also indicate much less prudishness about sex. (Read the Canterbury Tales sometime, or just visit the Renaissance Art section of your local fine art museum, and ogle the countless pictures of naked women.) Which is to say, that the problem isn't inherent to Christianity, writ large.

You're arguing that the problem is Japan's perception of modern culture derived in large party from American and English Puritanical/ and Victorian concepts of chastity and purity, and that the incorporation of those concepts was a conscious decision by the Japanese leadership as part of the broader modernization of Japan in the Industrial Era.

I don't know if I agree with this argument, but it is certainly plausible.

Still, "Japan's perception of Western values caused Japanese prudishness" is a MUCH different argument than "Christian influence caused Japanese prudishness".
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Posted 3/25/15



Of course, I can show you plenty of Western art and literature examples from the same period that also indicate much less prudishness about sex. (Read the Canterbury Tales sometime, or just visit the Renaissance Art section of your local fine art museum, and ogle the countless pictures of naked women.) Which is to say, that the problem isn't inherent to Christianity, writ large.

You're arguing that the problem is Japan's perception of modern culture derived in large party from American and English Puritanical/ and Victorian concepts of chastity and purity, and that the incorporation of those concepts was a conscious decision by the Japanese leadership as part of the broader modernization of Japan in the Industrial Era.

I don't know if I agree with this argument, but it is certainly plausible.

Still, "Japan's perception of Western values caused Japanese prudishness" is a MUCH different argument than "Christian influence caused Japanese prudishness".


Lesson learned: always read the innermost quote in a block of quoted text. I was only trying to support the outer one ("...contact with the west..."), which doesn't mention anything about Christianity. But I should have made that clearer. My bad

I agree with you, it wasn't Christian influence that caused Japanese prudishness. And you're right, there are definitely filthy Western works from pre-1870 (i.e. most of history). I would say there's a bit of a difference between Venus rising from the waves and a woodblock print depicting sex acts, but I don't know fine art very well so there may well be some more explicit stuff. Canterbury Tales is absolutely filthy though, you've got me there. And regardless of where it came from, the fact that this prudishness hasn't changed much in over a hundred years is definitely all on Japan.
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Posted 3/25/15
i dont know why they censor nudity but not violence but i really like how i dont have to see the nudity. Also the vololence ussualy dosent bother me if it is censored or not censored if it's too violent i'll just watch something else but i usualy dont have that problem
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Posted 3/25/15
You know i would rather they just cut out entire scenes if they censor them as badly as they often do in some anime... i mean entire sections are ruined because the immersion of a show is ruined because out of nowhere half the screen is blanked out. Im too old to be "protected" from daft things like animated kissing or smoking never mind the boobs or the violence.

Censorship is censorship... why the hell people are convinced this is less to do with law in countries and more to do with culture and even christianity is beyond me.
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Posted 3/25/15
Censorship is censorship. no matter the reasons or motives. but it is not necessary. it only serves to divide and subjugate humans to the will of the oppressors. why else would anyone ANYONE care what you said or published that wasn't legally slander and/or libel? "Well it gets kids thinkin 'bout'" and isn't that the problem? That they don't want people thinking outside the parameters THEY establish?
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Posted 3/25/15

AzazelOfNexium wrote:

I wonder if people realize that even porn is censored in japan (except for nipples)


LOL I was think of posting this when saw the OP.
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Posted 3/25/15
Censorship is money politics. Most politicians keep these laws in place in order to keep getting campaign money from SJW lobby groups. These same groups pressure advertisers to pull ads from "racy" or "inappropriate" shows to coerce TV networks to censor their lineup. And I don't buy the BS that it's for the children's sake, because:

1. Little Timmy can google whatever he wants and get it free, and it's far more hardcore than a boob or butt shot.
2. If you don't want your kids watching certain content, then be a damn parent and watch over them and monitor what they watch. Parking them in front of the TV and leaving them alone is not parenting, it's lazy. Or you could send them outside to play, might make it so we have less fatass children.

Anyway, back on topic. Censorship is a lazy and blatant attempt to exert an interest group's morals onto the general public. Which I find laughable, as people will lose their minds if a nipple is shown on TV, yet they won't bat an eyelash as they pay $10 to see a craptastic movie about a rich jackass forcing a woman into an unhealthy, unsafe, and abusive relationship under the pretense of S&M. So again, if you pay extra you get no censorship. Just like if you pay extra for HBO, Starz, or any other movie channel where you get unedited movies. I would imagine Hollywood and these channels support censorship in the media as a way to ensure consumers have an incentive to keep throwing money at them.

Which brings us to anime censorship. Most money made in the anime industry is from BD/DVD sales. Censoring all other showings of a series puts consumers in the position to either buy the box sets or premium channel subscriptions in order to see the original unmolested artwork. It's also why Crunchyroll often has difficulty getting the uncensored versions, as distribution companies don't want to see a portion of their profits going to streaming sites. Plus you have companies like Funimation competing against them for licensing rights, which further hampers things.

So the moral of the story is this: Money is power, and this power is being abused by SJW groups and corporations to force you to pay extra to see unedited and unmolested content. Then they'll use this money to keep the cycle going.

Or they could, I don't know, make a series that was good enough to make people want to buy the series for their library because of the story and characters, rather than paying to be able to see more than a screen halfway filled with black or white shading due to blatant T&A to entice horny fans. Not that there's anything wrong with fan service, but I enjoy it when it's appropriately utilized and not as a blatant censor magnet to drive up DVD/BD sales.

I'll get off my soapbox now. It's all just my opinion anyways.
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Posted 3/25/15 , edited 3/25/15
This is a half-assed post and it probably doesn't flow very well... so please don't come after me if you don't like it.

America is becoming too sensitive. Have you ever looked at the box with movie ratings where it lists the reasons for said rating? Things like, fantasy action, cartoon smoking, suggestive themes, quirky situations? SERIOUSLY?!?!? These are the things we need to shelter our kids from? In Europe they have commercials, advertisements in magazines and so forth with nudity in them. It is a little different than an anime girl giving a guy a boob-job to suck out the poison from a snake bite (as an extreme) or having an energy blast blow off all your clothes (pretty common), but the end result is the same. A naked body. Big deal! It shouldn't be up to the animation studios or the streaming sites to censor what people watch. Adults should monitor their own damn kids and control what they watch on tv or the computer. And they have the ability to not watch things that they find offensive to themselves. Oh no, you saw a naked person or some blood!! Turn the show off! It's their own laziness and a lack of responsibility that then causes them to complain about what is and isn't censored, thus forcing companies to meet their demands because it's easier than fighting a delusional parent or religious nutjob. Sensitive people always wanna push their own feelings on others, like they feel the need to "protect" everyone from what THEY deem indecent. And this is something that will never end. Might as well get used to waiting for the uncensored blu ray releases of shows to get the full experience.
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Posted 3/25/15
I completely agree with the first part of your comment. The second part I'm not sure I'm reading right. Are you saying that censorship is influenced more by laws but the people here think it's influenced by culture and religion? I agree that the final deciding factors of censorship are the laws we restrict ourselves with... But you do have to take into account that the law is influenced by culture and religion. Such as gay marriage, abortion, even prostitution. Not sure where you're from in the world, but every state in America has different laws dictated by the religious and cultural views of the people voting. I guess it's like the transitive law lol. A=B and B=C so A=C. Culture and religion dictate law, law dictates censorship, so culture and religion dictate censorship

Either way they are ruining our anime experience and it needs to stop! I feel like I find gold when a show slips through on Hulu or whatever that isn't censored. Usually it's older stuff like Elfen Lied or Shuffle, but that's fine because they're untainted by black bars and white beams of light haha.
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Posted 3/25/15 , edited 3/25/15
I don't know if you asking me, but I believe that's it's law influenced by culture and/or religion. Hence why I mentioned groups shoving money at politicians to pass censorship laws that benefit their cultural/religious belief. I am in the US, and while our Constitution calls for the separation of Church and State, the use of money to influence politicians has greatly blurred that line. This in addition to politicians pushing for legislation based on their cultural/religious beliefs in an attempt to create ideal morals rather than focusing on laws that ensure the safety and security of American interests and freedoms. The separation is slowly being eroded by people with money and inflated sense of purpose trying to create their ideal version of America vs a successful America.
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Posted 3/25/15
I wish that Tokyo Ghoul would censor the nudity over the blood and gore, but that's just because there isn't much nudity to begin with. >_>
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Posted 3/25/15
To annoy all the people who inevitably ask this question.
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