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Post Reply Indiana: First Amendment Rights or Bigotry?
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Posted 3/31/15
Does anyone here know that discriminatory contracts are illegal?
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Yeah, people don't usually examine legislative intent or actually even read the statute. They basically read someone's interpretation of it and go "THIS NEW LAW DOES WHAT? OH HELL NAW!" And it just gets more twisted from there. Trying to explain law to people who aren't used to legal reading is like trying to speak to a foreigner.

Legal writing rarely sounds bad outright. It's an imperfect patchwork of stuff that gets amended and added to constantly. It tries to adapt to changing times and changing ideals.

I agree about the impact on business owners. They should be allowed to control their business how they wish as long as it is not discriminatory refusal of service. Even though businesses are important to the public, they are still the property of their owners. What people don't realize is that discrimination claims are quite hard to win in court due to the heightened requirements, which came about due to the ungodly number of people all yelling about discrimination the moment someone else does what they don't like. If you haven't already, work a customer service job and you'll know exactly what I mean.


Leave it to the business to decide. I want to know what gives LGBT/ anyone else to get upset if i decided to refuse business to anyone and everyone, I decided I don't want to do business with. This is getting blown way out of proportion because LGBT think it's a personal attack on them. No where in the bill does it specifically say LGBT. The LGBT community needs to take a chill pill. Religious or not you come in my place of business and be an A$$ or rude or start causing issues. First ill show you the door. After that the gloves come off and you are going out the door in worse shape than you came in. I don't judge if you LGBT or just an idiot. I don't like to deal with stupid and i don't have time to put up with your high and might act just because you are LGBT. I don't care if you are or not. I don't want to do business with you leave and go find someone else to do it.

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Posted 3/31/15 , edited 3/31/15




Leave it to the business to decide. I want to know what gives LGBT/ anyone else to get upset if i decided to refuse business to anyone and everyone, I decided I don't want to do business with. This is getting blown way out of proportion because LGBT think it's a personal attack on them. No where in the bill does it specifically say LGBT. The LGBT community needs to take a chill pill. Religious or not you come in my place of business and be an A$$ or rude or start causing issues. First ill show you the door. After that the gloves come off and you are going out the door in worse shape than you came in. I don't judge if you LGBT or just an idiot. I don't like to deal with stupid and i don't have time to put up with your high and might act just because you are LGBT. I don't care if you are or not. I don't want to do business with you leave and go find someone else to do it.




True. People these days have a tendency to call everything discrimination. Still, it is POSSIBLE that something is discrimination. It merely comes down to the rationale behind certain decisions, which tends to matter more than the outcome that service was refused. And why won't this stupid thing let me quote properly...
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Posted 3/31/15 , edited 4/20/15
All of this comes down to the fact that LGBT can't handle that there are people out there that can't agree with there personal "CHOICES." So they go around yelling and crying discrimination when someone says "No I can't serve you cause my personal "CHOICE" to believe in god and follow what "I believe," is different than what they "believe." I personally don't care if your LGBT or not. If you wouldn't go around flaunting that you are LGBT and rubbing it in peoples faces, cause every time someone disagrees with you, your going to start crying and yelling discrimination for your personal "CHOICE." Pushing your " CHOICES" on someone is just going to make it worse.
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Posted 3/31/15

FlyinDumpling wrote:

Does anyone here know that discriminatory contracts are illegal?


Most folks don't understand that when you go into a place of business you are possibly entering into a contract for services or goods. This is of course if you purchase something since in fact that is a basic contract. Person buying promises to pay for good purchased person selling goods promised to provide those goods or services. It is a contract an unspoken one but still a contract, it is also regulated and enforceable by law.

So most folks don't even get that much it is just how business works they don't understand that they are entering into an agreement when buying something as simple as a candy bar. Since contracts are regulated by law this means you can legally control anti discriminatory practices at the state and federal level since federal law controls interstate commerces. Which means you can't write laws that allow folks to discriminate against others.
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Posted 3/31/15 , edited 4/20/15

Icewolf1561 wrote:

All of this comes down to the fact that LGBT can't handle that there are people out there that can't agree with there personal "CHOICES." So they go around yelling and crying discrimination when someone says "No I can't serve you cause my personal "CHOICE" to believe in god and follow what "I believe," is different than what they "believe." I personally don't care if your LGBT or not. If you wouldn't go around flaunting that you are LGBT and rubbing it in peoples faces, cause every time someone disagrees with you, your going to start crying and yelling discrimination for your personal "CHOICE." Pushing your " CHOICES" on someone is just going to make it worse.


What is a gay person pushing on someone from whom they choose to buy a soda. It's the soda shop pushing their religous choice on someone they think is gay.

Edit:

The LGBT aren't pushing anyone to be gay. Certain people think it's a religious duty to force gay people to be straight. I'm with the LGBT on this one.
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Posted 3/31/15 , edited 3/31/15

papagolfwhiskey wrote:

What is a gay person pushing on someone from whom they choose to buy a soda. It's the soda shop pushing their religous choice on someone they think is gay.
Normally people won't even tell their sexual orientations to strangers anyways, so this is just a terrible guessing game.


gvblackmoon wrote:

Most folks don't understand that when you go into a place of business you are possibly entering into a contract for services or goods. This is of course if you purchase something since in fact that is a basic contract. Person buying promises to pay for good purchased person selling goods promised to provide those goods or services. It is a contract an unspoken one but still a contract, it is also regulated and enforceable by law.

So most folks don't even get that much it is just how business works they don't understand that they are entering into an agreement when buying something as simple as a candy bar. Since contracts are regulated by law this means you can legally control anti discriminatory practices at the state and federal level since federal law controls interstate commerces. Which means you can't write laws that allow folks to discriminate against others.
Thank you for the explanation. I took a class in law in my early years of college, it was quiet interesting and I learned a lot. I encourage anyone to take an introductory class in law. Just like how employment is a contract between the employer and employee, a purchase is too. You can't discriminant when you're hiring someone, the same can be applied to the later. Employment at Will allows employers to fire their workers for any reason SO LONG as those reasons aren't discriminatory. I think the same should apply. I don't really know much about this Indiana law, a link to the actual document would help loads.
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Posted 3/31/15 , edited 3/31/15

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


Icewolf1561 wrote:

All of this comes down to the fact that LGBT can't handle that there are people out there that can't agree with there personal "CHOICES." So they go around yelling and crying discrimination when someone says "No I can't serve you cause my personal "CHOICE" to believe in god and follow what "I believe," is different than what they "believe." I personally don't care if your LGBT or not. If you wouldn't go around flaunting that you are LGBT and rubbing it in peoples faces, cause every time someone disagrees with you, your going to start crying and yelling discrimination for your personal "CHOICE." Pushing your " CHOICES" on someone is just going to make it worse.


What is a gay person pushing on someone from whom they choose to buy a soda. It's the soda shop pushing their religous choice on someone they think is gay.

Edit:

The LGBT aren't pushing anyone to be gay. Certain people think it's a religious duty to force gay people to be straight. I'm with the LGBT on this one.


They are pushing that everyone except them. Like that baker in Arizona. He doesn't except there life style and decided he would rather not take the job. Now he is having to go through court cases and possible jail time and fines. Just because he chose to not make a cake for them. So the gay couple are now dragging his name through the mud and crying because he said "NO." He wasn't forcing his religion on them. He was just following his beliefs. Now that he has made that choice the gay couple that he denied service to are giving him 2 options. Bake a cake or lose his business and possible time in jail. Seems like pushing there life style on him to me!

Most wouldn't know if you are LGBT unless you say something. But in this case like most other cases you put it out there. So since you put it out there the business owner should have a choice to take the job or not. If he does fine. If he doesn't fine also. Go find another bakery and get over yourself.

Yes it is a bad game of guess there sexual orientation. I prefer to do business and not know your life style. But when you put it out there to be judged and then you get mad cause someone doesn't believe the way you do is no reason to cause a problem. My life my choice. Your life your choice. I don't judge you, and when I say i would rather pass on a job go find somewhere else to go.
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Posted 3/31/15

FlyinDumpling wrote:


papagolfwhiskey wrote:

What is a gay person pushing on someone from whom they choose to buy a soda. It's the soda shop pushing their religous choice on someone they think is gay.
Normally people won't even tell their sexual orientations to strangers anyways, so this is just a terrible guessing game.


exactly, one of my points.

Unless people are having Gay sex on the countertops (and I put it to you that having any kind of sex on the countertop is reason to refuse service) the only way to say that someone is gay is because you THINK they are. you may be right. strong evidence such as public displays of affection or outright declarations might be pretty good evidence...

...I still don't get how refusing to serve people based on that fact you think they are offensive to your beliefs is any different from putting up a sign that says 'whites only'.

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Posted 3/31/15 , edited 3/31/15

Icewolf1561 wrote:

They are pushing that everyone except them. Like that baker in Arizona. He doesn't except there life style and decided he would rather not take the job. Now he is having to go through court cases and possible jail time and fines. Just because he chose to not make a cake for them. So the gay couple are now dragging his name through the mud and crying because he said "NO." He wasn't forcing his religion on them. He was just following his beliefs. Now that he has made that choice the gay couple that he denied service to are giving him 2 options. Bake a cake or lose his business and possible time in jail. Seems like pushing there life style on him to me!


They're not making him be gay. They're asking him to bake a cake which is something he does for anyone else. refusing them is pushing his choices on them. Not the other way around.

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Posted 3/31/15 , edited 3/31/15

FlyinDumpling wrote:


papagolfwhiskey wrote:

What is a gay person pushing on someone from whom they choose to buy a soda. It's the soda shop pushing their religous choice on someone they think is gay.
Normally people won't even tell their sexual orientations to strangers anyways, so this is just a terrible guessing game.


Yeah 90% of time its not going to come up, it's when its things like turning up and a hotel only to be refused the double bed you've booked because your two guys or two galls. That's when this is a issue and we can't have people turning down couples, turning up at 2 am expecting they have a room and then get told to go elsewhere simply because of their sexuality. The exact same thing happened with interracial couples, their choosing to be in a interracial relationship people would say and would turn them away. We needed a law to stop that and I don't see how this situation is any different. Just because you don't like someones sexuality/race/disability/choice of partner you don't get to not serve them.
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Posted 3/31/15 , edited 3/31/15

papagolfwhiskey wrote:

They're not making him be gay. They're asking him to bake a cake which is something he does for anyone else. refusing them is pushing his choices on them. Not the other way around.



And he is saying no I would rather not make the cake. Period end of story. But no there is a big fuss cause he told a gay couple that he would rather not take the job.

There is a big difference between a "white's only" sign and telling a LGBT person that you would rather not do work for them. Being LGBT is a "CHOICE." You can't control what color your skin after you are born. Unless you are Micheal Jackson and that's just a different story. And if you read i didn't say they were pushing him to be gay. They are pushing him to accept there "CHOICE," and he would rather not.

Its not that they are pushing LGBT on others, its that there are pushing acceptance on people that don't believe in there choices.
Posted 3/31/15 , edited 3/31/15

Icewolf1561 wrote:

And he is saying no I would rather not make the cake. Period end of story. But no there is a big fuss cause he told a gay couple that he would rather not take the job.

There is a big difference between a "white's only" sign and telling a LGBT person that you would rather not do work for them. Being LGBT is a "CHOICE." You can't control what color your skin after you are born. Unless you are Micheal Jackson and that's just a different story. And if you read i didn't say they were pushing him to be gay. They are pushing him to accept there "CHOICE," and he would rather not.

Its not that they are pushing LGBT on others, its that there are pushing acceptance on people that don't believe in there choices.


I don't know, when have we ever made the choice to be straight? I don't think I can force myself to like men. Not even for a million dollars. I'm just that hetero.

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There is a big difference between a "white's only" sign and telling a LGBT person that you would rather not do work for them. Being LGBT is a "CHOICE." You can't control what color your skin after you are born. Unless you are Micheal Jackson and that's just a different story. And if you read i didn't say they were pushing him to be gay. They are pushing him to accept there "CHOICE," and he would rather not.

Its not that they are pushing LGBT on others, its that there are pushing acceptance on people that don't believe in there choices.


Firstly your not going to find much agreement with most people that being LGBT is a choice I accept that you may be talking about acting on those feelings however. The correct comparison is with the anti-miscegenation laws people were refused service because they were in a interracial relationship again as you point out a choice. We didn't allow people to refuse service to interracial couples and were not likely to let people do it to gay couples.
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Posted 3/31/15
Last year of high school I listened to a pansexual girl harp about how persecuted she'd been for hours a day, every conversation. For a few months. Some LGBT people are really outspoken about being so. It was annoying. I've also met people you'd never know were gay unless they told you. They were cool.

This is a case of two parties who have mutually exclusive viewpoints, One of them will drown out the other. Quite frankly, the easy method would be to go to a different store, but I actually don't know about the underlying situation behind all of this. I have a feeling that not only will the law be repealed, but a different one will go in place saying something along the lines of businesses being unable to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation. I'd feel bad for a business owner who actually suffers because they refuse somebody service. There are normally plenty of stores willing to provide services. But I can also see how somebody would be pissed about being refused service because of something totally inconsequential. Either way this goes into the "volatile people being angry" folder.
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