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Post Reply Would you have a problem if a friend told you they were "ex-gay"?
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Posted 4/13/15

silversongwriter wrote:


ilikeotherstuff wrote:



(No offense) Excluding the fact that you likely don't know everything about their personal lives,
If what you're saying is /actually/ true &they really /didn't/ like it, then they were never gay.

I believe the saying goes, "Gay sex doesn't make you gay. Being gay makes you gay."

Also, "friends" & "family" were just examples.
In the end in any situation, the one who puts the most pressure on you /is/ you.
Other than that, "It felt wrong" & "God showed me the way" both sound like cop-outs to me, though that may just be my personal opinion.


If they had feelings for the same sex before, and have different feelings, then their sexuality changed.
Sexual fluidity is real and exists, there's just no scientific evidence it can be controlled.

When I said they, "didn't like it", I meant they liked the same sex, but hated themselves for liking the same sex.
I know a dude who almost lost his mind and actually cried about it... That was awkward, so I told him some "believe in yourself" stuff to get him to stop. A month later he claimed to have turned straight through means I don't really wanna discuss as they're graphic


Ughh this thread makes my head hurt.
Look man, at the end of the day, I don't care. It's really none of my business.
&my posts were mostly conjecture based off of people that I've known.

If they are really, truly, /SINCERELY/ happy then good for them.
I only hope that they are in fact /SINCERE/ and don't end up hurting their possible future opposite sex partner.
Faking this kind of thing doesn't do anyone any favors. That's all I really wanted to get across.


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Posted 4/13/15

Kerensa wrote:

I believed in will power.

So theoretically, conversion therapy could work, but it would have nothing to do with the therapy and come completely from within

Also, keep in mind, conversion therapy is an umbrella term and there's different ways people attempt it. I don't see a problem with people experimenting with ways to change a persons sexuallity psychologically. Hell, Timothy Leary experimented with this, and apparently LSD therapy made some people he expirmented on straight.... others remained gay however.

I have no issues with these places. As long as the people consent, it's okay for them to legally run... I mean, you can't prove ghosts are real. Yet, there's no law against paranomal investigation.

And I think as long as you're an adult and you legally consent, they can use whatever means they want. If you're 18 or older and you think someone shocking you with electricity will help... well... That's your decision.


I'd find it easier to read your reasonings if it wasn't apparent that you're just regurgitating what you were told in the class, or learned through other biased sources. I implore you to seek out other forms of education in this matter before you open such a controversial conversational piece...

i didn't learn this stuff from nobody.
Obviously the point I'm making is that science isn't really capable of determining it. And proving homosexuality isn't a choice isn't enough to say it's unchangeable.

Also, keep in mind, I'm not saying ANYBODY could change
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Posted 4/13/15 , edited 4/13/15

silversongwriter wrote:


Schmooples wrote:

Conversion therapies of all stripes have been proven not to work, not just for gays but for other sexual minorities as well. Some conversion therapies, like those involving LSD, could work on suggestion. LSD makes people much more suggestible - if they were told when under the influence that they were actually straight, it could have a lasting effect on them, assuming there wasn't lasting conflict. Others simply try to train a negative reaction to certain stimuli.

However, sexuality is a very complicated thing and isn't quite as black and white as people make it out to be. There are biological and environmental factors that play into it. The environmental factors can change, but the biological cannot; for that reason, I consider sexuality to be semi-fluid. Willpower is a strong thing, indeed, but it cannot override a basically biologic proclivity. It can, however, be used to ignore it or marginalize it.

I would go so far as to say that no person is absolutely androphilic or gynophilic. Some people may be close to an absolute, and therefore due to either social or internal pressures be nudged one way or the other, but that same basic orientation is there. Others may even realize that they aren't totally straight or gay, but simply identify with one group or the other for simplicity or other factors.

Ultimately, my only concern is when they advocate for dangerous therapies and convince other, often desperate individuals to undergo an unpleasant or damaging therapy - Aversion therapy, LSD therapies, etc.


If someone changed their sexuality, then I see no issue with them wanting to encourage others to do the same. I'm possitive someone who did that would have some sense of pride of being able to over come something society dictates as impossible.
Of course, it's a different story if they claim god changed it.

There really isn't a part of the brain that predeterimines sexuality, according to science it's a difference in genes. But I'm sure it isn't the structure of the brain. Plus, keep in mind, there is such a thing as neuroplacisity. The brain changes all the time. Whether that plays a role in sexuality is impossible to determine


As I said, sexuality is somewhat flexible but not entirely so. Sexuality is a complex matter that works like any other preference in the brain; you can't find the part of the brain that tells you that you like steak, for example. It is complicated and relies on a number of different systems. The brain doesn't change that much, as less you are referring to major traumas or manipulated hormones, but I don't doubt that some of the wiggle-room that exists is part of the brain's plasticity.

They shouldn't encourage other people to engage in risky, unpleasant therapies for the same reason that I wouldn't encourage people to use black salve for cancer: it doesn't reliably do any good, if it ever does any at all. On top of that, and more importantly, people shouldn't have to be encouraged to change something that is perfectly acceptable. People are fine the way they are, and when they are taught otherwise, they shouldn't have other people reinforcing that poor self-image - and they definitely should have to get there hopes up for something that would not work despite the pain it causes.

EDIT: Well, to address a point above me: Science can determine the causes, and there is a lot of evidence to support the current biological + environmental approach. However, just because the precise factors haven't all been discovered, it doesn't mean that we need to turn to pseudoscience that has been proven to be ineffectual. There is such a thing as a placebo effect, even in psychology.
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Jesus that article is sad. Its scary to see that people are still this homophobic and will disown there kids.
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Posted 4/13/15
I have a cousin that's "ex-gay" and is happily married with three daughters and three step kids. There's nothing wrong to be part of the LGTB group. People can find what they want in life to make them happy and worth living if it isn't in a way harmful to another person. My cousin is a down to earth and very kind. He's Christian now,but he doesn't judge or do what other Christians normal do. So, He's been another path,but he chose what he wanted to be happy.
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Posted 4/13/15

Schmooples wrote:
As I said, sexuality is somewhat flexible but not entirely so. Sexuality is a complex matter that works like any other preference in the brain; you can't find the part of the brain that tells you that you like steak, for example. It is complicated and relies on a number of different systems. The brain doesn't change that much, as less you are referring to major traumas or manipulated hormones, but I don't doubt that some of the wiggle-room that exists is part of the brain's plasticity.

They shouldn't encourage other people to engage in risky, unpleasant therapies for the same reasn that I wouldn't encourage people to use black salve for cancer: it doesn't reliably do any good, if it ever does any at all. On top of that, and more importantly, people shouldn't have to be encouraged to change something that is perfectly acceptable. People are fine the way they are, and when they are taught otherwise, they shouldn't have other people reinforcing that poor self-image - and they definitely should have to get there hopes up for something that would not work despite the pain it causes.


Basically, I'm saying science cannot and will not be able to know. I know what science is saying, and I believe it. Like I said, I put this under the "dark figure" of science. What we cannot and probably will not ever know or understand.

And if someone is unhappy with being gay for whatever reason, I'd tell them it's okay to change and to find their own way to do it. I seen a dude try before... spent 4 months trying to recondition his mind. And he went from thinking God hated him as a fetus, to being a semi-reasonable person.

So I'm glad I told him to go ahead with what he believed. Although, he wasn't ex-gay, he's ex-bi.
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Posted 4/13/15

silversongwriter wrote:

Basically, I'm saying science cannot and will not be able to know. I know what science is saying, and I believe it. Like I said, I put this under the "dark figure" of science. What we cannot and probably will not ever know or understand.

And if someone is unhappy with being gay for whatever reason, I'd tell them it's okay to change and to find their own way to do it. I seen a dude try before... spent 4 months trying to recondition his mind. And he went from thinking God hated him as a fetus, to being a semi-reasonable person.

So I'm glad I told him to go ahead with what he believed. Although, he wasn't ex-gay, he's ex-bi.


No, it can be understood, and the current model simply lacks a few precise factors. It is, however, primarily thought to be understood; thus, they say conversion therapy in ineffective, but that sexuality may change within a person's life. Aside from that point, though, just because it isn't understood now doesn't mean it never would be. Just look at how much science has advanced: at one point, they thought it was impossible for anything heavier than air to fly. We understand how matter works at the atomic level, we know why stars "burn."

We understand by what general guidelines orientations work, though. They are generally persistent for extended periods of a persons life and cannot be forcibly changed. We understand the basic mechanisms for orientation, but not every single little factor.
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Posted 4/13/15

Schmooples wrote:


silversongwriter wrote:

Basically, I'm saying science cannot and will not be able to know. I know what science is saying, and I believe it. Like I said, I put this under the "dark figure" of science. What we cannot and probably will not ever know or understand.

And if someone is unhappy with being gay for whatever reason, I'd tell them it's okay to change and to find their own way to do it. I seen a dude try before... spent 4 months trying to recondition his mind. And he went from thinking God hated him as a fetus, to being a semi-reasonable person.

So I'm glad I told him to go ahead with what he believed. Although, he wasn't ex-gay, he's ex-bi.


No, it can be understood, and the current model simply lacks a few precise factors. It is, however, primarily thought to be understood; thus, they say conversion therapy in ineffective, but that sexuality may change within a person's life. Aside from that point, though, just because it isn't understood now doesn't mean it never would be. Just look at how much science has advanced: at one point, they thought it was impossible for anything heavier than air to fly. We understand how matter works at the atomic level, we know why stars "burn."

We understand by what general guidelines orientations work, though. They are generally persistent for extended periods of a persons life and cannot be forcibly changed. We understand the basic mechanisms for orientation, but not every single little factor.


You said it could change within the persons life. Perhaps a desire to change is a side effect of a change that's going to happen?
Or... perhaps the state of someones mind may have an effect on that change.

Or... And people will hate what I'm gonna say but... Maybe there's a god?
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Posted 4/13/15



i didn't learn this stuff from nobody.

Ya know, I could very well be wrong... but didn't you say you went to a Christian school? If that is the case I find it hard to believe that everything you're saying now isn't something you heard in a classroom at your school. Even the list you had under a spoiler in your initial post looks to be something you'd find on biased website. The grammar seems a little off in comparison to your current grammar so it feels like a copy and paste... but I could be wrong.


Obviously the point I'm making is that science isn't really capable of determining it.


You are correct in saying that science hasn't made definitive proof that says concretely one way or the other. There has been a lot of research looking to find the "gay gene" and they believe, as of last year, that they have found some pretty good evidence for there being a specific chromosome that is "linked" (for lack of better word) to being homosexual (http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=9625997&fileId=S0033291714002451). Moreover, there are many animals that engage in homosexuality as well. About 130 bird species engage in homosexual activity; lions, chimpanzees, bison and dolphins have also been spotted in same-sex pairings. This sort of evidence that other animals within the animal kingdom are engaging in same-sex pairings lead one to believe that it isn't out of the ordinary for the human animal to engage in similar activity.

If you're truly interested in the science behind linking homosexuality to our chromosomes, you should look up some of the interesting research around Xq28 and a gene on chromosome 8. It's interesting stuff even if you choose not to believe in the results their studies are producing.

As of this point there is no resounding proof that what you are saying actually works for individuals who are switching from being homosexual to heterosexual. Yes, you have their "word", but we are all aware of the hard truth that people lie -- especially when they're in fear of losing something or worse. I am not implying that these people are afraid of something, but with all the hate going around, and families disowning their own children over it, some of those "ex-gay" or "ex-bi" people may fear the wrath of their family, or even their surrounding public.

There was a show, however, on TLC called "My Husband is not Gay". If you ever got around to watching that, they were men who were gay and supposedly kicked the habit. But the ex-gay husbands would all get together and talk about their "habit" in attempt to steer clear of it. They claimed to be straight, had families and children... But it was still apparent in their behaviors that they were still harboring attraction to people of the same sex as them. The show was canceled, for obvious reasons.


I'm not saying ANYBODY could change

Keep in mind, I'm not saying that you are saying ANYBODY could change.
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Posted 4/13/15

silversongwriter wrote:


Schmooples wrote:

No, it can be understood, and the current model simply lacks a few precise factors. It is, however, primarily thought to be understood; thus, they say conversion therapy in ineffective, but that sexuality may change within a person's life. Aside from that point, though, just because it isn't understood now doesn't mean it never would be. Just look at how much science has advanced: at one point, they thought it was impossible for anything heavier than air to fly. We understand how matter works at the atomic level, we know why stars "burn."

We understand by what general guidelines orientations work, though. They are generally persistent for extended periods of a persons life and cannot be forcibly changed. We understand the basic mechanisms for orientation, but not every single little factor.


You said it could change within the persons life. Perhaps a desire to change is a side effect of a change that's going to happen?
Or... perhaps the state of someones mind may have an effect on that change.

Or... And people will hate what I'm gonna say but... Maybe there's a god?


Those are some pretty dramatic leaps in logic there. When in doubt, apply Occam's Razor.

I'm of the opinion that a placebo effect would be responsible for the initial "change" in orientation, or perhaps the feelings are simply repressed. After that, there is a chance of it changing or not changing. There is a massive precedent for ex-gays to "relapse" and slip back into their homosexual desires/practices. This view has the least assumptions and fewest unanswered questions, since a majority of mechanisms within it are explained, but it doesn't mean it is absolutely correct.

If not that, the desire may be able to nudge it slightly in one direction - but not to the other end of the spectrum.
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Posted 4/13/15 , edited 4/13/15

There's no point in really debating...

Cause I am a Cartesian Dualist and I believe in a soul. I think of the brain as but a radio which interprets or "Broadcasts" our conciousness in a way we can be aware of. Sort of like a computor. THe internet isn't generated within the computor. But you need a computor or similar device to access the internet. So to me... the mind/soul is like the internet, and a brain is like a computor or router

I also believe there is some sort of god as well... Perhaps he changes people sexuality so they can be happy, and not because he has an issue with it.
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Posted 4/13/15

Kerensa wrote:

You are correct in saying that science hasn't made definitive proof that says concretely one way or the other. There has been a lot of research looking to find the "gay gene" and they believe, as of last year, that they have found some pretty good evidence for there being a specific chromosome that is "linked" (for lack of better word) to being homosexual (http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=9625997&fileId=S0033291714002451). Moreover, there are many animals that engage in homosexuality as well. About 130 bird species engage in homosexual activity; lions, chimpanzees, bison and dolphins have also been spotted in same-sex pairings. This sort of evidence that other animals within the animal kingdom are engaging in same-sex pairings lead one to believe that it isn't out of the ordinary for the human animal to engage in similar activity.



It's important to note that most animal species don't exhibit individuals that are exclusively oriented one way or the other. Also important to note that there have been twins, separated at birth, that have turned out to be of different sexual orientation. A gene (or set thereof) could contribute to a biological basis of orientation, but it is also partly environmental.
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Posted 4/13/15

Schmooples wrote:


silversongwriter wrote:


Schmooples wrote:

No, it can be understood, and the current model simply lacks a few precise factors. It is, however, primarily thought to be understood; thus, they say conversion therapy in ineffective, but that sexuality may change within a person's life. Aside from that point, though, just because it isn't understood now doesn't mean it never would be. Just look at how much science has advanced: at one point, they thought it was impossible for anything heavier than air to fly. We understand how matter works at the atomic level, we know why stars "burn."

We understand by what general guidelines orientations work, though. They are generally persistent for extended periods of a persons life and cannot be forcibly changed. We understand the basic mechanisms for orientation, but not every single little factor.


You said it could change within the persons life. Perhaps a desire to change is a side effect of a change that's going to happen?
Or... perhaps the state of someones mind may have an effect on that change.

Or... And people will hate what I'm gonna say but... Maybe there's a god?


Those are some pretty dramatic leaps in logic there. When in doubt, apply Occam's Razor.

I'm of the opinion that a placebo effect would be responsible for the initial "change" in orientation, or perhaps the feelings are simply repressed. After that, there is a chance of it changing or not changing. There is a massive precedent for ex-gays to "relapse" and slip back into their homosexual desires/practices. This view has the least assumptions and fewest unanswered questions, since a majority of mechanisms within it are explained, but it doesn't mean it is absolutely correct.

If not that, the desire may be able to nudge it slightly in one direction - but not to the other end of the spectrum.


If the desire can nudge in a certain direction... perhaps it can nudge more after that. and a little more... and a little more... and a little more..
It is a progressive process, and according to my friend, he went through 4 months of torture, each day. He had some nasty wounds and burns and shit.
I told him it was messed up, but he said he'll turn straight or die trying to turn straight

He said the first two months were the worst and that was the peak of his torture, and he used extremely fucked up methods that would make you puke if I told you about. Then in the 3rd and 4th months it called down.... Eventually, he'd only apply his "exercises" a few times because he claimed his desire for men was fleeting. Eventually, he claimed to not have any more gay thoughts and stopped the torture.
But however, he said if his thoughts resurface, he'll simply do it again. So far, he's fine now

I did talk him out of doing "Starvation therapy". Because thats a little too extreme.
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Posted 4/13/15

silversongwriter wrote:

If the desire can nudge in a certain direction... perhaps it can nudge more after that. and a little more... and a little more... and a little more..
It is a progressive process, and according to my friend, he went through 4 months of torture, each day. He had some nasty wounds and burns and shit.
I told him it was messed up, but he said he'll turn straight or die trying to turn straight

He said the first two months were the worst and that was the peak of his torture, and he used extremely fucked up methods that would make you puke if I told you about. Then in the 3rd and 4th months it called down.... Eventually, he'd only apply his "exercises" a few times because he claimed his desire for men was fleeting. Eventually, he claimed to not have any more gay thoughts and stopped the torture.
But however, he said if his thoughts resurface, he'll simply do it again. So far, he's fine now

I did talk him out of doing "Starvation therapy". Because thats a little too extreme.


There is a biological basis that does not change; there is a limit to how much can be nudged, if it can truly be nudged at all.

Aversion therapy (which your friend did in a self-inflicted way) has been proven to be ineffective in changing sexual orientation, no matter what the orientation is. It discourages thought, but does not change the underlying orientation. At the most extreme, he would feel physical distress when confronted with such material or thoughts (like Clockwork Orange).

Really, you should have talked him out of all of it, instead encouraging him to accept himself. Self-mutilation is never a good thing.
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Posted 4/13/15
Doesn't really bother either way.. To be honest.
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