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Posted 4/20/15 , edited 4/20/15
"it is intended as a literacy baseline for those who have completed compulsory education"
Exactly, it is intended to be that way but like I said, Japanese adults have told me that they don't know the jouyou kanji in its entirety so why should we care about doing better than them? This isn't theory crafting. This is actual data I got from them.

The other guy is fluent in Japanese and has lived in the country anyways so I trust him on the romaji. However, I do think you still might as well learn at least hiragana/katakana because I've talked to Japanese people online who couldn't distinguish romaji from English, lol. Well, I guess that would be my goal and not others'.

Grammar: No you don't need to learn it lol. I know polyglots who have become fluent without them and I sure as heck never studied grammar as a kid and I'm fine. I question whether people in the 1500s even knew what grammar was and I doubt their languages were broken. The map is not the terrain. You don't need a map to figure out places. This is already discussed deeply in my links anyways.

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/how-real-is-anime-japanese
I don't get where this anime rumor even comes from. People in real life that you grew up with don't even use a wide array of words in comparison to what's in shows. The difference is that you spend 7+ hours with your relatives daily but with shows, most people don't spend more than 1 or 2. In addition, I do mean to include reading w/e as it helps greatly with connecting the dots.
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Posted 4/20/15 , edited 4/20/15

RedExodus wrote:

"it is intended as a literacy baseline for those who have completed compulsory education"
Exactly, it is intended to be that way but like I said, Japanese adults have told me that they don't know the jouyou kanji in its entirety so why should we care about doing better than them? This isn't theory crafting. This is actual data I got from them.

The other guy is fluent in Japanese and has lived in the country anyways so I trust him on the romaji. However, I do think you still might as well learn at least hiragana/katakana because I've talked to Japanese people online who couldn't distinguish romaji from English, lol. Well, I guess that would be my goal and not others'.

Grammar: No you don't need to learn it lol. I know polyglots who have become fluent without them and I sure as heck never studied grammar as a kid and I'm fine. I question whether people in the 1500s even knew what grammar was and I doubt their languages were broken. The map is not the terrain. You don't need a map to figure out places. This is already discussed deeply in my links anyways.

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/how-real-is-anime-japanese
I don't get where this anime rumor even comes from. People in real life that you grew up with don't even use a wide array of words in comparison to what's in shows. The difference is that you spend 7+ hours with your relatives daily but with shows, most people don't spend more than 1 or 2. In addition, I do mean to include reading w/e as it helps greatly with connecting the dots.


EDIT2: This argumentation is really just pointless. Doesn't matter who is "right" or who is "wrong", we'll get nowhere.
http://lifehacker.com/5811255/why-you-cant-win-an-argument-on-the-internet


Then show that "data". Saying that you heard this and that from someone isn't a very good source.

What he wrote was that romaji is often seen in public places. As I too said, if your goal is to speak japanese and not read it, sure, skip all kanji and rely solely on kana (or romaji...). But there's no way you're going to be fully fluent (reading/writing/speaking) just using romaji, because the japanese sure as heck don't write in romaji apart from "public places", company names, and such... And even if you could be understood if you wrote a letter all in romaji, I don't think they'd appreciate it...

Don't need to learn grammar? You need to learn grammar for japanese just as you needed to learn grammar for english.

You didn't go to school? I thought everyone had grammar in school these days. Even if you did in fact not go to school and learn grammar, your english is fine. And you're either a grammatic mastermind who never needed to learn grammar, or you did in fact study grammar. Most people atleast, need to study grammar. Look at all the tons of people on the internet who write extremely flawed english grammar wise.

If you don't know your grammar you're going to talk like a cow and not get understood whatsoever. Even if you don't "study grammar" as in textbook studying, you still need to know the grammar rules, even if you don't think of them as grammar rules, you still need to know them. You need to pick them up in one way or another, otherwise you won't get understood. Perhaps you could skip all grammar and just learn vocab, and still understand most things by context and vocab, but you wouldn't be able to speak yourself and make your own sentences.
You need to know particles, such as WA, GA, KA, NE, NA, YO and many, many, many more. Without knowing these you won't get very far at all, and these are in fact grammar rules, and not vocab.

People in the 1500's also had grammar rules. Without grammar rules, a sentence in english could look like this: "Rule grammar has I like not". This is obviously, very gramatically wrong, and it doesn't work at all. If you're seriously interested in english during the 1500's, here's a wikipedia article on it, it mentions grammar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_English

I'm not saying anime-japanese and the like is not "real japanese" - although voices can be unnatural/exxagerated in some shows, it's not a terrible way of getting more familiar with the language. Learning japanese solely by anime is hardly a very good idea however. Anime, dramas, movies, and many other mediums in japanese can be an amazing contributor to getting familiar with the language, to learn more words, and to be the only source of learning after you've gotten far enough. But to start out from knowing nothing and attempting to learn japanese ONLY by watching anime and japanese movies/dramas? Not going to happen. Picking up words here and there is one thing, becoming fluent is a completely different thing.

EDIT: I read your previous link about "grammar not existing". And sure, grammar doesn't exist if you look at it like that.
But it's still there... The only difference is that he/she calls it something else, disregards any patterns and just learns different gramattical forms of words as separate words, and probably looks upon particles as vocab aswell (which I find really odd but whatever).

The thing is, this guy or girl still learned grammar by learning the grammar as "different words". And he/she still learned grammar by immersing him/her self in the language, he/she just doesn't call it grammar. It makes no practical differance as long as you still learn the same things... He/she also mentioned that natives of any language probably don't know of the grammar rules they're using. Yeah, that's sure as hell the case, I have since long ago forgotten what all the grammatical rules are called that I'm using, but I still needed to learn them at some point. But when you use them enough, they start to becoem so natural that you don't even think about it anymore. To skip the step of actually learning them, I suppose it is possible, but it's not a widely accepted way of learning languages, and it would probably not be highly effective for the general population. If it was, the entire world has their school systems messed up.
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Posted 4/20/15
you will need a BA in general just to be considered good enough to be a teacher. When they see a BA most cases it wont matter what BA you have as long as you have one.
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Posted 4/20/15
I bought this poster to help out while I'm learning. The different colors starting from the top are supposed to signify what you should know for what test, that being the N5-N1 test. This ain't my pic, but I pulled it to show a sense of scale. There's a lot of stuff you need to memorize to pass those things.

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Posted 4/20/15 , edited 4/20/15

Shigumundo wrote:



Yo, I didn't intend for this to be an argument but more of like a discussion as much of a pet peeve it is for me to see certain things repeat themselves. Yeah, it's data because I talked to actual Japanese people whereas most people do not. I did not talk to English people trying to guess Japanese stuff, it was actually Japanese people. It's like how it's more reliable to ask your seniors on how aging changes your behavior rather than guessing it yourself, 'cuz studies find that those predictions are very inaccurate. This was in a vsauce video somewhere but I'll have to find it later. I cannot show you the data of course though 'cuz it's not like I just took graphs or interviews off the internet but these were personal conversations rather. If you think about it, it is required for us to learn math up to pre-calc and history in school but do we remember much of them as adults? Do we know them? No. Same as those hundreds of useless jouyou kanji.

I have no idea why I'm seeing the next paragraph because it seems we agree about romaji.

About the grammar, I was speaking perfect English even before I went to school like when I was 4 years old. I write perfect English too when it was to my grandma. i just rite leik dis on teh intanetz wen am lazee or nawt srs. I have never seen a native English kid of age 4~5+ speak like people type on the internet even without grammar lessons.. Of course, patterns exist in the language and this predates grammar. This means grammar is just another method as human minds are really good at seeing patterns. So good at it that we can do this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAcjV60RnRw and music/language are shown to use similar parts of the brain in studies. It goes back to what I meant by "The map is not the terrain". The map is not the first or only method of understanding a place but we're going to do it similarly either way. Not using a map doesn't mean I won't use my brain to remember the locations by sight. Yes, I will learn connector words like GA but it comes from using my head and feeling patterns, not because I picked up a book labeled "grammar".

If you put together khatuzumoto's article with the video before it, those are different words because they sound different. It is a fact that kids don't know what words are when they first learn a language but instead sees several words as one sound and one meaning which is also good for developing good intonation and accent in general. They discern the separate meanings of words later on rather than immediately. I know people who forgot English when living in other countries and the first things to go were connector words like "of" since they don't really pay attention to those or study them as "words", they were just sounds that hang around there.

Your point I actually agree with if you mean attempting to learn from anime and associated things from scratch. It is a fact that babies do not learn well from shows from scratch in controlled environments in studies. To begin with, we need language parents or other things that gives us context or will show us the ropes. I do not agree with having to be near-fluent though. This video by a polyglot with a scientific background explains it well. The final stage is not near fluency though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8oz6ad2o1w
Edit: I think that was the wrong vsauce video at the beginning but I'm not sure. There was a mention about us being able to hear similar songs somewhere. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHCHEykUxP4
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Posted 4/20/15
Aw, that's cute, you're asking a question about Japanese in an anime forum, LOL. Can't help.
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Posted 4/20/15

Big_A wrote:


BlackStarLine wrote:

You may want to explain what an N1 is...


Sorry, N1 is the most difficult level of JLPT (Japanese Language Profiancy Test) wich is said to be mighty difficult.


Where are you taking these courses? i have an interest in learning japanese i just dont know which college has good programs for it. If you quote me back i would greatly appreciate it


Hobu-totonou-kun wrote:

I`m N2 at the moment and I`m planning to take N1 by the end of this year (in my country we just have the december test)

I work in the car manufacturing business and japanese is one the key skills needed, I work for the enterprise that sells the paint process (Phosphate, E-coat, primer, base and clear coat) to car manufacturers, I`m responsible for japanese clients (Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Mazda, etc.)

Let me tell you that they don`t really care about my JLPT level but instead the actual speaking and reading skills (also translation skills) even tough I`m not a translator (I`m industrial engineering) BUUUUUT....some guys have asked me if I have taken the JLPT test and they get prettty amazed when I tell the I`m N2 and have offered me some job options...

So I think the most important is to have actual skills and you know that JLPT doesn`t really tests your speaking skills.

For the kanji, well you need at least 1,800 but the better way is to learn the whole Touyou kanji list (a total of 2,145) because any kanji outside this list needs to have furigana on top so you can read it.

I`ve studied for 7 years (almost 8), I lived in Japan for months and have travel 3 times more for business trips, twice for vacation (and one more for vacation in 10 days from now) also I have a lot of study materials (around 80 books)...so if you need any help I`d gladly help ^___^



Where have you studied your Japanese? ive been interested in learning the language and culture (not sure if i want a career for it yet or not) If you could quote me back it would definitely help me out
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Posted 4/20/15

ayesharocks wrote:

Aw, that's cute, you're asking a question about Japanese in an anime forum, LOL. Can't help.


I know... it's actually a huge difference right? Heard it from a japanese friend of mine. Sadly I've adapted the accent of anime but are trying to watch more tv-shows and movies to adapt to a new one.
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Posted 4/20/15

Ninja_Pro92 wrote:
Where are you taking these courses? i have an interest in learning japanese i just dont know which college has good programs for it. If you quote me back i would greatly appreciate it


This is a test you can apply for at the JLPT official website. http://www.jlpt.jp/e/
I study on my own, but before that it was a language school that got me started. Private school, could only afford 3 months, still great though.
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Posted 4/20/15
If you really can pass N1 you can do anything! I mean you are complete fluent in japanese. Not even all Japanese people can pass N1 it is so difficult. I have studied Japanese a lot and my skill level is about N3. I am good at kanji and can write over 1000 and read many, but I definitely wouldnt pass N1! And the kanji is not the most difficult thing about N1. I think the hardest thing is learning all the vocabulary about 7000-8000 words which is a lot.
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Posted 4/20/15

Big_A wrote:


Ninja_Pro92 wrote:
Where are you taking these courses? i have an interest in learning japanese i just dont know which college has good programs for it. If you quote me back i would greatly appreciate it


This is a test you can apply for at the JLPT official website. http://www.jlpt.jp/e/
I study on my own, but before that it was a language school that got me started. Private school, could only afford 3 months, still great though.


oh wow! well i cant apply for the test cause i obviously dont know any japanese just random words from anime lol thanks for quoting me back! appreciate it! private schools i did hear are stupid expensive! thanks though
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Rabbit Horse
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Posted 4/20/15
from what i read, there are quite a few kanji not on the list of 2k or so joyo kanji that you actually need to know to actually be fluent
(rather than just being fluent on paper)
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Posted 4/20/15

falcoillusion982 wrote:

If you really can pass N1 you can do anything! I mean you are complete fluent in japanese. Not even all Japanese people can pass N1 it is so difficult. I have studied Japanese a lot and my skill level is about N3. I am good at kanji and can write over 1000 and read many, but I definitely wouldnt pass N1! And the kanji is not the most difficult thing about N1. I think the hardest thing is learning all the vocabulary about 7000-8000 words which is a lot.


Seems we define word count and fluency differently. The other dude was saying we need 20k+ words and that tests aren't practical for testing actual fluency(listening, speaking skills) and then I see this.

How do we define what a word is even? Would "do, doing, done, did" be different words for example?
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Rabbit Horse
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Posted 4/20/15
^ those are just the conjugations of the same word (in this case, the verb "to do")
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Posted 4/20/15
Apparently, some people see them as different words. There are some polyglots who do and says you need 20k+. I guess if those are not considered separate words, around 8k makes a lot of sense from what I've researched.
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