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Do you fight the corrupt government?
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Posted 5/2/15
Information gathering is the most critical part of political participation. Tracking representatives' voting records, keeping a good idea of which executive orders do what, watching court decisions (and possibly reading through the briefs afterward), checking candidate and representative donor lists, examining reports issued publicly by various institutions within the government, staying abreast of what's getting emphasis in the news, knowing who is on which committees and subcommittees and what they're talking about, monitoring attendance records at legislative hearings, tracking policy trends and their effects, reading through legislation, there's a lot people can do to become better informed.

Unfortunately, one cannot reasonably do all of those things which people "ought to do" without essentially devoting all their time to it, and expecting everyone to do all of that defeats the purpose of having a representative democracy in the first place. As Morbidhansen has rightly stated, it's like trying to track ants' movement in a set area, but that's just law. Trying to keep track of the whole thing would be like trying to continue following those ants' movements while also keeping track of every oxygen molecule in the atmosphere of that area. It'd be terribly overwhelming. But doing some of these things is something which should be universal since it makes for a better-informed electorate which is well-equipped to take their representatives to task on major issues if and when they should need to. And there are things which warrant attention.

Civil forfeiture is an institution which is a valuable asset for law enforcement, but unfortunately in the US it has been subject to heinous abuse by several police departments. There is a system for checking against abuse of the powers enumerated in the PATRIOT Act, but it has a long history of saying yes far more often than it says no. This warrants additional scrutiny, especially considering the importance of the subject. The proportion of investigations into suspected misconduct on the part of federal officers revealing no actionable behaviour is high enough to warrant suspicion that at least some of these cases were mishandled. While the legislature narrowly managed to avoid claiming the title "least active Congress in US history" it is nevertheless the case that the legislature has well earned its low approval rating for its ineffectual governance. Finally, Citigroup literally wrote portions of legislation affecting itself. There are things to be concerned about in the US to be certain.

With all of that in mind, let's not get ahead of ourselves. For the most part the rank-and-file employees of the various governments and departments within the US are simply good, honest people doing important (and often thankless) work. That's true of the various law enforcement agencies, it's true of public health agencies, it's true of judicial institutions, it's true of the various revenue gathering agencies, it's true of regulators ensuring compliance with laws surrounding broadcasting standards, manufacturing standards, food packaging standards, sanitation standards, and so on. It's perfectly well to take government actors to task when they misbehave or fail to fulfill their duties, but vilifying public service is a sure way to ensure its quality stays on a downward slope. Police officers aren't pirates or bandits, though the US does seem to have a problem with excessive force, in some cases racism, and abuse of civil forfeiture within its law enforcement communities which need to be addressed. How? Become better informed and pay attention to mayoral and gubernatorial races would be the first step I'd propose. If no worthwhile candidates emerge and you feel you could do better, work to gather rapport and donors from the public and run yourself next cycle. If you don't think you could do better, find someone you think could and gather rapport and donors for them instead.
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Posted 5/2/15

moonhawk81 wrote:


Jamming777 wrote:

Your protest by lien, leaves much to be desired. Most governments have official duties shield laws that are applied to any good faith mistake on their part. You also open yourself to be accused of frivolous application for liens and require additional evidentiary procedure for your applications in the future. Legal civil action is not the cure-all answer, just a tool to be used in specific instances.


I would advise those following this thread, particularly the usage of liens as legal instruments against the actions of public officials performing their sworn duties, to immediately look-up the term sovereign citizen. That seems to me to be the tone of the original post. [An old adage runs: "Make your own decisions, but at least know what you're signing up for."]


You should read this from a Moor's legal status and position within society, i.e "nothing greater"
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Posted 5/2/15

Magical-Soul wrote:


moonhawk81 wrote:


Jamming777 wrote:

Your protest by lien, leaves much to be desired. Most governments have official duties shield laws that are applied to any good faith mistake on their part. You also open yourself to be accused of frivolous application for liens and require additional evidentiary procedure for your applications in the future. Legal civil action is not the cure-all answer, just a tool to be used in specific instances.


I would advise those following this thread, particularly the usage of liens as legal instruments against the actions of public officials performing their sworn duties, to immediately look-up the term sovereign citizen. That seems to me to be the tone of the original post. [An old adage runs: "Make your own decisions, but at least know what you're signing up for."]


You should read this from a Moor's legal status and position within society, i.e "nothing greater"


Thank you for your confirmation. This is a sovereign citizen-themed thread, then.
pikohn 
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Posted 5/2/15
I don't hate the government...I've just chosen to let go of things that are beyond my power to change. Depending on what side you lay on (civilian or official), the more you let government into your life...the harder it will become. I'm speaking from experience... just try not keeping up with politics...and enjoying life around you...it's liberating.
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Posted 5/2/15 , edited 5/2/15

moonhawk81 wrote:

Thank you for your confirmation. This is a sovereign citizen-themed thread, then.


Dug around and found this primer on what is admittedly a new subject for me:

http://www.sog.unc.edu/sites/www.sog.unc.edu/files/R09.1%20Sovereign%20citizens%20briefing%20paper%20Sept%2012%20%28Crowell%29.pdf

Of particular relevance in that document is the section labeled "Filings" on page five, and it also led me to this discovery:

http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/PDF/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-118.6.pdf

That's right, folks: if you file a lien against a public officer/employee or a family member thereof for doing their duty by issuing a citation for driving without a valid driver's license in North Carolina you are committing a Class I felony. Further, if the office you're trying to file it with has reason to suspect that you're not on the up and up they do not have to file your lien and you will have to go through a series of steps to contest the denial and substantiate the contractual or statutory basis of your lien.

I also found this recent case summary on filing false liens and falsification of tax records:

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/nebraska-sovereign-citizen-convicted-filing-false-liens-against-federal-officials-and-federal

Long of it short? This is a form of activism best avoided.
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Posted 5/2/15 , edited 5/2/15
Changing our government is a slow struggle no matter what you do to achieve your goals. Corruption is so deeply entrenched in the political system the likelihood anything of importance will change is unlikely. What we need is protest like Occupy but with staying power. We need to boycott business that fund political campaigns we dislike. We most importantly need to get involved in local politics.

Third parties are the solution to Americas political problems. That is not to say voting a third party candidate for presidents a good idea. We need to get third parties elected in local politics were they can actually make a difference.
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Posted 5/2/15 , edited 5/2/15

Amaya- wrote:

History shows us that nothing is ever solved by violence. In the event a coup is successful and a new government is established, resentment and hatred begin to brew among the oppressed, sometimes building up for decades. The Baltimore Riots are a shorter-term example of this. When a community feels oppressed for generations it is never forgotten, and it is like a thirst that cannot be quenched by vengeance. What those rioters did was in vain.


What you do realize that the Baltimore riots were successful in getting the accused cops arrested and tried for the crimes. Im not going to sit here and pretend that peaceful protest will always work.

Its like using physical punishment on your child. We like to pretend its not effective but it really is. If you ask nicely for your child to stop hitting other kids and your child refuses, then you ask again and they still refuse, etc I wont blame you for getting frustrated and smacking them to teach them not to do it. Thats what happened in Baltimore peaceful protest didn't work so Im not going to blame people for rioting to prove a point and guess what it was successful and got results. The problem is the american government not responding to peaceful protests so there only left with the option to riot.

Also "history has shown us that nothing is ever solved by violence"
>Being this Naive
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23 / M / Fort Myer
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Posted 5/2/15
Oh please, I work for the government.
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Posted 5/2/15

11BravoPatterson wrote:

Oh please, I work for the government.


No you work for us. The government works for us. They tend to forget that.
Posted 5/2/15
I will not fight. I will flee.
Posted 5/2/15
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Posted 5/2/15

11BravoPatterson wrote:

Oh please, I work for the government.


Haha same here, USMC

I fight for my "corrupt government"
Ejanss 
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Posted 5/2/15 , edited 5/2/15

Magical-Soul wrote:

We all know the government is corrupt, we all know they lie, we all know driver licenses, permits, etc are pretty much scams and fear mongering.

What I want to know, is if you resist and force them back or anything?


(Now, y'know how some nitpickers get upset when people misuse the phrase "Which begs the question", when they actually mean "Which raises the question"?
After I had to take Logic/Philosophy 101 as a core class during my freshman year, I can demonstrate to those people that what you've helpfully given us here is an actual example of "Begging the question". People, look carefully, and see the difference; seriously, that mistake just drives me up the wall. )
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Posted 5/2/15 , edited 5/2/15

Magical-Soul wrote:

We all know the government is corrupt, we all know they lie, we all know driver licenses, permits, etc are pretty much scams and fear mongering.

What I want to know, is if you resist and force them back or anything?

When it comes to government "officials" the most often we deal with are police, and they are in every sense of the word "pirates" "bandits" etc, by my kinda resistance, I mean legal activity to hinder/destroy/disrupt/bankrupt them. Since police are the most common among most people, those are popular targets for most people, but some go even further then that.

I'm quick to file suits and place liens on them nowadays.

For those that do not know, a lien is basically a debt, whenever a cop pulls you over for anything except a crime, you punish them for it, when they attempt to lie to coerce you into doing something, you punish them for it.

When you file a suit by yourself in federal court in your proper nationality, the law suit is not up for debate whether it's "legit" or not, if the party doesn't show(they won't), you declare the trial in your favor and you leave a copy for the court and you file another copy for your local county(public record), and once you do that, they're gonna be however much in debt you said they had to pay you.

This way, you can "fight" the government the most effective and safest way possible.

Liens can be placed on anything that's not a right or a living person(legal status), so you can go crazy with suits on government officials and entities(corporations) alike.

What does being in debt do? If a court ordered you to pay something, you'd be in debt, you'd have to pay, otherwise no one is gonna do business with you if they search your public record. Because you don't pay your debts. There is mercy in court though, you shouldn't attach billion dollars to a suit just because of an illegal arrest, you can, but it quickly turns you evil if you get into the habit of posting insanely high prices to liens. Take it from creditors who actually done it, "It feels good, but too good, watch out."

Just had to give that little lesson, a look into what I do, and the lengths I go too. There are more ways to be active, but this way is the most effective.

Petitions and protests are activity as well, but you can probably tell I'm a couple steps above that.

Do you have any activity in bettering society?


So your approach is to file a false lien which which the courts take a very dim view of and have taken the appropriate steps to curtail. In this case to file a lien against a government official is a federal felony and treated as if you made a threat against them. I strongly recommend you speak to an attorney before you get into real trouble.

I assume you were told to do this by someone that you look up to and respect that also fails to understand how the legal system actually works. If you are pulled over there is in most cases probable cause unless you are in a city or town where "Driving while not White" is a problem this happens I know it happens and we need to change the system so that this doesn't happen. But we can change the system through the election process this belief you can't is both childish and shows a lack of education on the part of people that believe it.

There is no such thing as an illegal arrest while there is a false arrest you can be compensated for that. Being held for question is not an arrest you haven't be charge with a crime and as such are not under arrest do the follow three things. 1. Ask for an attorney. 2. Assert your right to remain silent. 3. If you speak reassert your right to remain silent. 4. Keep you mouth shut. It really is that simple if you do this they have two option charge you or let you go. Oh if they fail to get you an attorney you have a right to sue since you are allowed to have one present for questioning.

All you are doing is wasting the courts and the people time and money which means you are a drain on society. So please stop and go actually talk to an attorney before you post really bad ideas like this again. Just to show you the results here is a link to a case that shows what happens if you follow through on the young ladies idea.

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2013/05/31/sovereign-citizen-sentenced-for-filing-false-liens-2/

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1521


In closing do not do what the original poster is suggesting it will only get you into legal trouble. This is a criminal act. Do something constructive run for office work for a campaign that has someone that is for the people. Start an initiative if your state has those, but don't do something that get you in jail.
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Posted 5/2/15

megahobbit wrote:


11BravoPatterson wrote:

Oh please, I work for the government.


No you work for us. The government works for us. They tend to forget that.


It is even more basic than that we are our government. You elect someone to represent you it is best if you elect someone that will actually do that. This is why they say all politics are local.
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