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Posted 5/28/15
hey anyone know where I can get this and the other fates??
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Posted 5/28/15 , edited 5/29/15

farispie wrote:


Yes we have and that's part of the reason for my 'inb4' statement.

To me fighting to try to be free and possibly even dying in that process is something worthy of praise; suffering through hell and enduring it is worthy of my sympathy. I have sympathy for Sakura but I don't/won't praise her or put her on my respected list. I don't consider submitting to circumstances courageous, I think fighting to alter those circumstances is courageous. Her mental fortitude to some degree I will admit to being good/great (depending on my mood), though that doesn't per se go towards how 'strong' she is. As for irl victims go, I'd easily push for them to come forward and go to whatever authority figure they could rather than just endure through what they are going through.

I think if I were given the choice of a life of torture or dying via an attempted escape/fighting back, I'd choose the latter. At least in that way I'd have some level of dignity. In the same vein I'd rather lose an arm than bow to someone that commands me to do so, more pride than dignity but still.

Shirou 'saves' her via showing her that she is valued and loved by him thus going against what she's been told/feels about herself. He sees how she is and instead of tossing her away, he accepts her thus again 'saving' her. That's the kind of 'saving' I was referring to.

I meant more that from what I've seen people that liked HF don't like Fate (and by extension Saber) and people that like Fate don't like HF (and by extension Sakura). I see Fate as the "Paladin's Route" (albeit minus the princess and with an equal/stronger female knight) and HF as the "Dark Knight's Route" thus why I can see how there'd be a dis-taste for each one from the opposite side.

I've always viewed Sakura with sympathy, as someone that needs help to break out of her circumstances, and someone that causes anger from me due to her actions in her story; while Saber I view as a strong & courageous character that fights her own battles and to achieve her own goals regardless of how difficult they are to attain.
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Posted 5/29/15 , edited 5/30/15

xCrimsonEX wrote:


farispie wrote:


Yes we have and that's part of the reason for my 'inb4' statement.

To me fighting to try to be free and possibly even dying in that process is something worthy of praise; suffering through hell and enduring it is worthy of my sympathy. I have sympathy for Sakura but I don't/won't praise her or put her on my respected list. I don't consider submitting to circumstances courageous, I think fighting to alter those circumstances is courageous. Her mental fortitude to some degree I will admit to being good/great (depending on my mood), though that doesn't per se go towards how 'strong' she is. As for irl victims go, I'd easily push for them to come forward and go to whatever authority figure they could rather than just endure through what they are going through.

I think if I were given the choice of a life of torture or dying via an attempted escape/fighting back, I'd choose the latter. At least in that way I'd have some level of dignity. In the same vein I'd rather lose an arm than bow to someone that commands me to do so, more pride than dignity but still.

Shirou 'saves' her via showing her that she is valued and loved by him thus going against what she's been told/feels about herself. He sees how she is and instead of tossing her away, he accepts her thus again 'saving' her. That's the kind of 'saving' I was referring to.

I meant more that from what I've seen people that liked HF don't like Fate (and by extension Saber) and people that like Fate don't like HF (and by extension Sakura). I see Fate as the "Paladin's Route" (albeit minus the princess and with an equal/stronger female knight) and HF as the "Dark Knight's Route" thus why I can see how there'd be a dis-taste for each one from the opposite side.

I've always viewed Sakura with sympathy, as someone that needs help to break out of her circumstances, and someone that causes anger from me due to her actions in her story; while Saber I view as a strong & courageous character that fights her own battles and to achieve her own goals regardless of how difficult they are to attain.

=================================================================================================

Right, but that's the unfortunate thing about Sakura's circumstances, she literally has no authority figures she can go to help with her situation. Furthermore, a lot of IRL victims have a lot a lot a lot of psychological baggage that makes it hard for them to report what is done to them. By the way, given how sometimes society treats rape victims, its not exactly a happy way out either.

In other words, its not as a simple of a matter as you make it out to be.

I would be inclined to agree with you if Sakura had a chance, of being free by plotting revenge. But in this situation, its a 100 percent thing that Sakura will die if she tries to kill Zouken. There's no 0.000001 %. Its a 100 percent thing. Plus, even if there was a 0.000001% chance, I still think finding happiness through a normal life is NOT suffering completely. There is merit in trying to move forward instead of throwing away your life for revenge.. I mean think about it, what takes more endurance and perseverance? : Ending your life so you don't feel any more pain, or dammnit find a worthy life despite the pain you've been going through. That is courage to me. Death is not always freedom. Death for the sake of death is nothingness. Pointless. Meaningless.

And I think she does fight to change her circumstances in her own way. After all there is a difference between "shut up and stay put and be a tool for the Matou family" or "Living as a normal high school girl instead of being a tool".


Also no offense Crimson, but what makes you think Sakura remains passive throughout the entire HF route? Uh if you know what she mentally does, and what she at least attempted to sacrifice to save other people, you can at least say she doesn't remain passive.



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Posted 5/29/15

tisiah18 wrote:

hey anyone know where I can get this and the other fates??


Honestly, I am not sure if all the routes are adapted to manga form. And the anime situation is listed in great detail in the UBW thread. If you are looking to experience a complete and detailed picture of all the routes, then the visual novel is for you .
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xCrimsonEX wrote:


megahobbit wrote:

Ehh neither portrayal Is something I would like personally or morally lord knows we dont need anymore "women to be saved" and "women as sex objects" right know. But personally having played the route I would settle for her characterization there. Wont spoil it for you but you will find out its kind of neither.


I'd honestly rather see her put in another vein as well, since one aspect that bugs me is how seemingly she does little to nothing to fight back and instead suffers through her situation. inb4 someone comes in to say how she couldn't do anything: I know the situation and I know how bad it is and yet I still would prefer her to do try to do something. I think there's a difference between the 'damsel in distress' type of saving and the emotional 'tortured soul needing to be told they aren't bad' type; that's what I meant at least partially in the saving her aspect.

By far I prefer Saber's styling which is pushing back on the idea of needing to be saved (fight alongside her? Okay. fight in front of her or in her place? Nope, you will only get her angry side) and fighting her own battles even if they are potentially losing ones. Maybe that's an aspect of why I hear that its harder to get into HF if you liked Fate and vice versa, but my storyline-ocd makes me want to see the story whatever it may turn out to be.


Honestly HF was always my favorite route but its one I would never call progressive in its portrayal of women.
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Posted 5/29/15

megahobbit wrote:


xCrimsonEX wrote:


megahobbit wrote:

Ehh neither portrayal Is something I would like personally or morally lord knows we dont need anymore "women to be saved" and "women as sex objects" right know. But personally having played the route I would settle for her characterization there. Wont spoil it for you but you will find out its kind of neither.


I'd honestly rather see her put in another vein as well, since one aspect that bugs me is how seemingly she does little to nothing to fight back and instead suffers through her situation. inb4 someone comes in to say how she couldn't do anything: I know the situation and I know how bad it is and yet I still would prefer her to do try to do something. I think there's a difference between the 'damsel in distress' type of saving and the emotional 'tortured soul needing to be told they aren't bad' type; that's what I meant at least partially in the saving her aspect.

By far I prefer Saber's styling which is pushing back on the idea of needing to be saved (fight alongside her? Okay. fight in front of her or in her place? Nope, you will only get her angry side) and fighting her own battles even if they are potentially losing ones. Maybe that's an aspect of why I hear that its harder to get into HF if you liked Fate and vice versa, but my storyline-ocd makes me want to see the story whatever it may turn out to be.


Honestly HF was always my favorite route but its one I would never call progressive in its portrayal of women.


I agree that sure the route can come off as demeaning to woman, but I can't really agree with Crimnson's notion of her fighting back and attempting to kill Zouken/Shinji (he didn't bring it up in this thread, but in the UBW thread). At least for me it seems like dying for petty revenge is less courageous than trying to live a normal lfie.

Anyways, the main reason HF is my favourite route is because of Shirou and Kotomine in all honestly.
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farispie wrote:

I agree that sure the route can come off as demeaning to woman, but I can't really agree with Crimnson's notion of her fighting back and attempting to kill Zouken/Shinji (he didn't bring it up in this thread, but in the UBW thread). At least for me it seems like dying for petty revenge is less courageous than trying to live a normal lfie.

Anyways, the main reason HF is my favourite route is because of Shirou and Kotomine in all honestly.


Yeah that was fucking awesome. Its kind of my favorite cause it brings resolution to the Sakura plot from F/Z cause Kariya was one of my favorite characters. I also think that while its really fucked up and regressive I still think its probably the best written and most fascinating of the routes.
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megahobbit wrote:


farispie wrote:

I agree that sure the route can come off as demeaning to woman, but I can't really agree with Crimnson's notion of her fighting back and attempting to kill Zouken/Shinji (he didn't bring it up in this thread, but in the UBW thread). At least for me it seems like dying for petty revenge is less courageous than trying to live a normal lfie.

Anyways, the main reason HF is my favourite route is because of Shirou and Kotomine in all honestly.


Yeah that was fucking awesome. Its kind of my favorite cause it brings resolution to the Sakura plot from F/Z cause Kariya was one of my favorite characters. I also think that while its really fucked up and regressive I still think its probably the best written and most fascinating of the routes.


But seriously like just all the Kotomine and Shirou parallels in the route, and the amazing bad endings in HF sealed the deal for best route (esp. Spark Liner High and Mind of Steel).
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Posted 5/29/15

farispie wrote:


megahobbit wrote:


farispie wrote:

I agree that sure the route can come off as demeaning to woman, but I can't really agree with Crimnson's notion of her fighting back and attempting to kill Zouken/Shinji (he didn't bring it up in this thread, but in the UBW thread). At least for me it seems like dying for petty revenge is less courageous than trying to live a normal lfie.

Anyways, the main reason HF is my favourite route is because of Shirou and Kotomine in all honestly.


Yeah that was fucking awesome. Its kind of my favorite cause it brings resolution to the Sakura plot from F/Z cause Kariya was one of my favorite characters. I also think that while its really fucked up and regressive I still think its probably the best written and most fascinating of the routes.


But seriously like just all the Kotomine and Shirou parallels in the route, and the amazing bad endings in HF sealed the deal for best route (esp. Spark Liner High and Mind of Steel).


The one were Rin tells Sakura she doesn't care about what happened to her and Sakura kills her. That really fucking got me when I played the game that was dark.
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megahobbit wrote:


farispie wrote:


megahobbit wrote:


farispie wrote:

I agree that sure the route can come off as demeaning to woman, but I can't really agree with Crimnson's notion of her fighting back and attempting to kill Zouken/Shinji (he didn't bring it up in this thread, but in the UBW thread). At least for me it seems like dying for petty revenge is less courageous than trying to live a normal lfie.

Anyways, the main reason HF is my favourite route is because of Shirou and Kotomine in all honestly.


Yeah that was fucking awesome. Its kind of my favorite cause it brings resolution to the Sakura plot from F/Z cause Kariya was one of my favorite characters. I also think that while its really fucked up and regressive I still think its probably the best written and most fascinating of the routes.


But seriously like just all the Kotomine and Shirou parallels in the route, and the amazing bad endings in HF sealed the deal for best route (esp. Spark Liner High and Mind of Steel).


The one were Rin tells Sakura she doesn't care about what happened to her and Sakura kills her. That really fucking got me when I played the game that was dark.


Oh, not just kills her. Makes her go through the same things she did, which is even darker.

My personal favorite bad ending was Shirou vs. Saber Alter.
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Posted 5/30/15 , edited 5/30/15

megahobbit wrote:

Honestly HF was always my favorite route but its one I would never call progressive in its portrayal of women.


Define 'progressive' because when I google it in regards to this I can never get a really clear answer



farispie wrote:


Bit delayed/late but been annoyingly busy last day and a half, but now finally got some time on my hands

I mentioned that route not because of Sakura but as more of a parallel, because going to an authority figure is a form of resistance/trying to get out of your situation. Sakura doesn't have that option, agreed but she also doesn't truly show any attempts at anything either. The one thing she does do which I'm not really sure where to place my feeling on it is that she continues to go to Shirou even after being told not to. On the one hand it is showing at least some resistance, on the other hand its still her allowing the situation to continue and just enduring. ugh some of the ways rape victims are treated irl honestly do make me sick, for instance the idea that they have to prove that the entire thing happened and wasn't caused by them -.-

When it comes to how I feel about her it is that simple of a matter, now in how the character should be in a general sense that's complicated. I think that Sakura is definitely a sympathetic character but I can't/won't go further than that.

Even in that I case I would still say its at least worth the attempt, because 'dignity'. I'm not a braggart or even highly confident individual but even I have enough dignity to not let that situation stick. Except she won't be happy for long because Zouken eventually will interfere in that happiness, or if he doesn't and she moves on with her life he gets away with all the sh*t he did. I don't think she should per se go out for revenge on him but at least he deserves something to be done to him as penance via someone. For me the worst idea is that Zouken gets away with it, p.o.s. like him (even irl) shouldn't get away, and again not talking Punisher death plot type but some form of justice/judgement. Trying to live your life and pretend like it isn't happening to me is in the same vein as 'running away', the person continues to be victimized, the person knows its temporary, and the person victimizing gets away with it (the part that is possibly most aggravating). Except it isn't 'Death for the sake of death', its 'Death for the sake of dignity' or 'Death for the sake of feeling like you tried.' At some point I expect the person to go 'Enough!'.

Again I have mixed feelings about her trying to be a normal girl and even continuing to visit Shirou even after being told not to, though at this point you'd have already read them so no need to repeat.

Is there something to be offended by in this sentence o.O (I honestly didn't see anything offensive in it). Not sure if should spoiler or not so
Is it unfair to put her against someone like Saber? Maybe, but Saber is in the vein of what I consider 'strong' thus is my mind uses to weigh others. Though I could compare her to Fujino (KnK ova3) and she'd still lose by my standards, not general consensus standards but my own.
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xCrimsonEX wrote:


megahobbit wrote:

Honestly HF was always my favorite route but its one I would never call progressive in its portrayal of women.


Define 'progressive' because when I google it in regards to this I can never get a really clear answer



farispie wrote:


Bit delayed/late but been annoyingly busy last day and a half, but now finally got some time on my hands

I mentioned that route not because of Sakura but as more of a parallel, because going to an authority figure is a form of resistance/trying to get out of your situation. Sakura doesn't have that option, agreed but she also doesn't truly show any attempts at anything either. The one thing she does do which I'm not really sure where to place my feeling on it is that she continues to go to Shirou even after being told not to. On the one hand it is showing at least some resistance, on the other hand its still her allowing the situation to continue and just enduring. ugh some of the ways rape victims are treated irl honestly do make me sick, for instance the idea that they have to prove that the entire thing happened and wasn't caused by them -.-

When it comes to how I feel about her it is that simple of a matter, now in how the character should be in a general sense that's complicated. I think that Sakura is definitely a sympathetic character but I can't/won't go further than that.

Even in that I case I would still say its at least worth the attempt, because 'dignity'. I'm not a braggart or even highly confident individual but even I have enough dignity to not let that situation stick. Except she won't be happy for long because Zouken eventually will interfere in that happiness, or if he doesn't and she moves on with her life he gets away with all the sh*t he did. I don't think she should per se go out for revenge on him but at least he deserves something to be done to him as penance via someone. For me the worst idea is that Zouken gets away with it, p.o.s. like him (even irl) shouldn't get away, and again not talking Punisher death plot type but some form of justice/judgement. Trying to live your life and pretend like it isn't happening to me is in the same vein as 'running away', the person continues to be victimized, the person knows its temporary, and the person victimizing gets away with it (the part that is possibly most aggravating). Except it isn't 'Death for the sake of death', its 'Death for the sake of dignity' or 'Death for the sake of feeling like you tried.' At some point I expect the person to go 'Enough!'.

Again I have mixed feelings about her trying to be a normal girl and even continuing to visit Shirou even after being told not to, though at this point you'd have already read them so no need to repeat.

Is there something to be offended by in this sentence o.O (I honestly didn't see anything offensive in it). Not sure if should spoiler or not so
Is it unfair to put her against someone like Saber? Maybe, but Saber is in the vein of what I consider 'strong' thus is my mind uses to weigh others. Though I could compare her to Fujino (KnK ova3) and she'd still lose by my standards, not general consensus standards but my own.

==================================================================================================

Allright, well see here is another factor you have to consider :

HF spoilers :




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Posted 5/31/15 , edited 5/31/15

farispie wrote:
-snip-




My main point is that while I feel sympathy for Sakura, I don't hold her highly in the strength/strong character department. That she purposefully handicaps herself in order to not upset the status quo and/or to remain being seen as the 'good girl', or subconsciously does so. And that to me she isn't a character I'd praise for various reasons. You obviously see her differently which is fine.
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Posted 5/31/15 , edited 5/31/15

xCrimsonEX wrote:


megahobbit wrote:

Honestly HF was always my favorite route but its one I would never call progressive in its portrayal of women.


Define 'progressive' because when I google it in regards to this I can never get a really clear answer



farispie wrote:


Bit delayed/late but been annoyingly busy last day and a half, but now finally got some time on my hands

I mentioned that route not because of Sakura but as more of a parallel, because going to an authority figure is a form of resistance/trying to get out of your situation. Sakura doesn't have that option, agreed but she also doesn't truly show any attempts at anything either. The one thing she does do which I'm not really sure where to place my feeling on it is that she continues to go to Shirou even after being told not to. On the one hand it is showing at least some resistance, on the other hand its still her allowing the situation to continue and just enduring. ugh some of the ways rape victims are treated irl honestly do make me sick, for instance the idea that they have to prove that the entire thing happened and wasn't caused by them -.-

When it comes to how I feel about her it is that simple of a matter, now in how the character should be in a general sense that's complicated. I think that Sakura is definitely a sympathetic character but I can't/won't go further than that.

Even in that I case I would still say its at least worth the attempt, because 'dignity'. I'm not a braggart or even highly confident individual but even I have enough dignity to not let that situation stick. Except she won't be happy for long because Zouken eventually will interfere in that happiness, or if he doesn't and she moves on with her life he gets away with all the sh*t he did. I don't think she should per se go out for revenge on him but at least he deserves something to be done to him as penance via someone. For me the worst idea is that Zouken gets away with it, p.o.s. like him (even irl) shouldn't get away, and again not talking Punisher death plot type but some form of justice/judgement. Trying to live your life and pretend like it isn't happening to me is in the same vein as 'running away', the person continues to be victimized, the person knows its temporary, and the person victimizing gets away with it (the part that is possibly most aggravating). Except it isn't 'Death for the sake of death', its 'Death for the sake of dignity' or 'Death for the sake of feeling like you tried.' At some point I expect the person to go 'Enough!'.

Again I have mixed feelings about her trying to be a normal girl and even continuing to visit Shirou even after being told not to, though at this point you'd have already read them so no need to repeat.

Is there something to be offended by in this sentence o.O (I honestly didn't see anything offensive in it). Not sure if should spoiler or not so
Is it unfair to put her against someone like Saber? Maybe, but Saber is in the vein of what I consider 'strong' thus is my mind uses to weigh others. Though I could compare her to Fujino (KnK ova3) and she'd still lose by my standards, not general consensus standards but my own.
=============================================================================================

Okay lets agree to disagree, but I will just put one thing out there : from what I understand, you are saying that a rape victim, especially one that was systematically abused as a child, and expecting her to break out of years and years of psychological trauma to resist is in your own words "a basic reaction?", ie : "the obvious thing to do", If so man, well....that's quite a skewed and frankly kinda slimy view you have there in my opinion. The difference is, well the 7/11 guy replacing getting security cameras and such is a rather easy thing to do at the end of the day, and if they don't replace them, then they are idiots. Rape victims(again esp. child ones) undoing years of abuse and psychological trauma , not blaming themselves, and not using whatever self preservation mechanisms they had to not go insane over the years is not an easy thing to do whatsoever.

And in a way, while I know this isn't your message, you make it sound that "Man, its better to die than living as a rape victim". So, like hey maybe all the rape victims in the world who for whatever reason can't resist back against their abusers or report to the authoroities, should just commit suicide and die with "dignity".
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Posted 5/31/15 , edited 5/31/15

farispie wrote:


What I think is that every person/thing has a basic instinct to alter things that harm them. If someone puts my hand on a hot oven burner I don't care how much hell I've been through I'm going to start swinging and fighting back, by instinct. I do expect a similar instinct to kick in and for a rape victim to take any opportunity possible to get out of their situation. To me 'slimy' would be saying that the rape victim deserved to be raped and/or the rapist shouldn't be punished; which is exactly opposite of my position. I've said it before but basically I would rather have rape victims come forward more often and for the rapists to be brought to justice than to have them have the mindset of just moving on and letting the rapists go free. As for the 711 example, remove the emotional aspect and you get the same mindset. The 711 guy would be repeatedly told he needs to put in cameras and sighed at for not doing so for whatever reason; while a rape victim does the equivalent in just enduring through a situation that isn't going to change and yet is supposed to be held up and praised. To me like the 711 guy needing to be pushed into installing cameras, the rape victim should be pushed into the mindset of changing their circumstances via reporting it to the authorities/bringing it to the public eye. Pragmatically speaking the two are similar circumstances that invoke similar responses. For a somewhat example of what I mean and if you watch Law & Order: SVU (at least the particular episode I did anyway, "Rotten" iirc) then the episode
demonstrates what I view as the instinct.

Commit suicide? No. Take any and every opportunity to run away even at risk of possible death? Yes. If there's a weapon lying around that they can get to and use should they use it even if highly likely to result in death? Yes. Should one just accept the situation as it is? No. My p.o.v. is that its better to die trying to free yourself than to live and continue to be raped/abused/tortured. Just like outside of this I see the idea of fighting for what one believes in even when odds are against you, as a noble and honorable one.
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