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Posted 5/31/15
fairspie...why do you even bother?
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Posted 5/31/15 , edited 5/31/15

xCrimsonEX wrote:


farispie wrote:


What I think is that every person/thing has a basic instinct to alter things that harm them. If someone puts my hand on a hot oven burner I don't care how much hell I've been through I'm going to start swinging and fighting back, by instinct. I do expect a similar instinct to kick in and for a rape victim to take any opportunity possible to get out of their situation. To me 'slimy' would be saying that the rape victim deserved to be raped and/or the rapist shouldn't be punished; which is exactly opposite of my position. I've said it before but basically I would rather have rape victims come forward more often and for the rapists to be brought to justice than to have them have the mindset of just moving on and letting the rapists go free. As for the 711 example, remove the emotional aspect and you get the same mindset. The 711 guy would be repeatedly told he needs to put in cameras and sighed at for not doing so for whatever reason; while a rape victim does the equivalent in just enduring through a situation that isn't going to change and yet is supposed to be held up and praised. To me like the 711 guy needing to be pushed into installing cameras, the rape victim should be pushed into the mindset of changing their circumstances via reporting it to the authorities/bringing it to the public eye. Pragmatically speaking the two are similar circumstances that invoke similar responses. For a somewhat example of what I mean and if you watch Law & Order: SVU (at least the particular episode I did anyway, "Rotten" iirc) then the episode
demonstrates what I view as the instinct.

Commit suicide? No. Take any and every opportunity to run away even at risk of possible death? Yes. If there's a weapon lying around that they can get to and use should they use it even if highly likely to result in death? Yes. Should one just accept the situation as it is? No. My p.o.v. is that its better to die trying to free yourself than to live and continue to be raped/abused/tortured. Just like outside of this I see the idea of fighting for what one believes in even when odds are against you, as a noble and honorable one.

===============================================================================================

And that's where we draw the line, because to me what you are saying is that its better to die than being a rape victim. That one should choose death over living if you are a rape victim under abuse. Sakura can't change her situation, unless she's willing to destroy the rest of the world in the process, and to me that's not noble. Instead she tries to move on and change her situation by finding a normal life with Shirou, which doesn't destroy the world in the process. Of course we want rape victims to get out of their situation, but at the same time you can't blame victims for not actively trying to do, because there's ALOT of psychological, societal, financial at times, mental, emotional, baggage that prevents them from doing so. Its not as simple as you make out to be, and thinking it is shows a lack of perspective. And your Law and Order example doesn't quite work out, since Benson wasn't under systematic abuse, both emotional, mental, etc that gave psyhclogical trauma to prevent her from being able to resist (again, Sakura was being abused as a child which does alot to one's mental state and outlook on life).


Look my main argument isn't that rape victims shouldn't fight back, but : 1) That you shouldn't blame for not fighting back , because there's alot of baggage associated with rape that non-victims can't begin to understand 2) That Rape victims aren't soley defined by them being rape victims, they have a life outside of the abuse, and if they find that life is still worth living, then don't blame them for not choosing death 3) in particular a child abuse victim, and one infected with the fucking ALL EVILS IN THE WORLD and one that still chooses to suffer so that the ENTIRE WORLD DOESN'T GET DESTROYED is kinda not playing a passive role and is one who is courageous in her own way.

And hold the phone, what do you mean remove the emotional aspect? My argument is that the emotional aspect is the main reason why comparing a 711 guy and a rape victim isn't a fair nor valid comparison.
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Posted 5/31/15

sehrverrueckt wrote:

fairspie...why do you even bother?


I dunno man, I dunno. Just when I see Crimson's comments, I just admittedly get a bit annoyed at some of the things he says, so then we get into a debate.
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Posted 5/31/15 , edited 5/31/15

xCrimsonEX wrote:

No. My p.o.v. is that its better to die trying to free yourself than to live and continue to be raped/abused/tortured. Just like outside of this I see the idea of fighting for what one believes in even when odds are against you, as a noble and honorable one.


So, basically you're saying that if someone values their life above dying to prove a point, they are (as you said of Sakura) not worthy of respect?
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Posted 5/31/15

farispie wrote:


And I'm saying its better to try to free yourself and die than continue to be held prisoner/abused. And you're right Sakura destroying the world in order to free herself wouldn't be 'noble' but it would be something I could respect from a certain perspective since she'd be fighting in order to be freed. Except within that 'normal life' she'd always be under Zouken's control and he'd get off with no repercussions. You also shouldn't set the precedent and general mindset that if you get into a rape/abuse situation you should just accept it and not bother with anything as the default, instead push the idea of being opportunistic and seeking justice. I was more talking about the way Benson acts being an example of what I meant with regards to the instinct to fight back, she does so practically on instinct rather than go into a subdued mode. Another example would be Kagura Tennozou (Speed Grapher) who is in a similar situation and doesn't directly fight back, but she also doesn't simply give in either; though she also kind of annoys me due to running back to her mother -.-

1) I don't 'blame' the victim, however I also don't praise giving up or accepting the situation.
2) Again I don't 'blame' them, however I do see the fact that by them going on with their so called 'normal lives' that they're letting the rapist get away with the crime. Not to mention I see little to no value in living a life where you're in fear of that person coming back, instead I'd rather see them bring that person to justice and truly live happily without that fear.
3) That also wants to not ruin her image in front of the guy she has feelings for thus keeps herself locked in a specific situation. I'll say that her bottling up the evils is noble in a sense but I still wouldn't say it makes her a strong hero.

I mean look at it pragmatically, not take away Sakura's emotion but your own. Look at it as just two situations or equations and the two match up. In both cases you have a situation where someone could do something to help their position but choose not to, except in the latter case someone that points this out is obviously 'blaming the victim' because they choose to look at it pragmatically.


imaginarycreatures wrote:

So, basically you're saying that if someone values their life above dying to prove a point, they are (as you said of Sakura) not worthy of respect?


I mean exactly what I said with no flip side of the coin/implication towards other side, dying in order to attempt to be free is worthy of respect and praise. The End, there is no comment for the other side of it. And its not about 'proving a point', its about not giving up or submitting either yourself or whatever you're fighting for. Its about having pride or value in yourself and what you believe in. I will praise and respect Saber day in and day out, for Sakura I will show sympathy.
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Posted 5/31/15 , edited 5/31/15

xCrimsonEX wrote:

And its not about 'proving a point', its about not giving up or submitting either yourself or whatever you're fighting for. Its about having pride or value in yourself and what you believe in.


Isn't fighting and dying for your beliefs (particularly if there's nobody to know why you did it), by definition, proving a point?

And if that action isn't necessary for Sakura to be worthy of respect, they what would (in your opinion) be considered necessary?
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Posted 5/31/15 , edited 5/31/15

imaginarycreatures wrote:

Isn't fighting and dying for your beliefs (particularly if there's nobody to know why you did it), by definition, proving a point?

And if that action isn't necessary for Sakura to be worthy of respect, they what would (in your opinion) be considered necessary?


I have no clue on the dictionary definition of 'proving a point', to me it goes beyond that into belief/ideology. If I were to fight and die to save someone for instance, it wouldn't be to prove I could do it but because I would feel driven by my ideology/sense of morality/altruism to do so. And I'd know I did it and could hold value in that. I could spill a cup of coffee on someone's work that they spent hours to get done to 'prove a point', so its a bit too simplistic a phrase.

If what isn't necessary? fighting and dying for one's belief?
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Posted 5/31/15

xCrimsonEX wrote:

If what isn't necessary? fighting and dying for one's belief?


Yes:


I mean exactly what I said with no flip side of the coin/implication towards other side, dying in order to attempt to be free is worthy of respect and praise. The End, there is no comment for the other side of it.


If there's no flip side, then that action isn't necessary for you to respect Sakura; so what action would be necessary for you to respect Sakura, if fighting toward her inevitable death isn't necessary?
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Posted 5/31/15 , edited 5/31/15


The problem is that there isn't anything else in Sakura that makes me respect her and a thousand and one things that make me go the opposite direction, so this particular aspect is either moot or embedded within.

She doesn't fight for anything initially, she doesn't really put forth her point of view at all instead being quiet and subdued, she allows people to walk over her, she drags others (Rider) into her situation allowing them to suffer through traumatic things again, and she'd rather secretly endure Zouken's torture while seemingly leading a 'normal life' rather than try to do something to bring him to some form of justice or to try to get away from him somehow. The closest thing I've seen is Farispie's point about her holding in all the evils (so long as one doesn't read too far into it) and not going world destructor mode would trigger some amount of respect though those are 2 things vs 5 counters. Add to that my inherent dislike of the 'timid submissive' type of female characters and yeah she doesn't have much reason for me to respect her.

vs Saber (who I do respect):
Fights to fix her past, puts forth her objections to both Kiritsugu and Shirou pretty adamantly and even goes out on her own (regardless of recklessness of it), pushes back when Shirou tries to protect her instead wanting if anything him to fight at her side, tries to fight battles on her own and keep others out of danger, would rather set right the past than try to have a happy life, chooses to do toss away the grail when she finds out its true nature, never turns on people of her volition, and endures various hardships yet still maintains herself and her values.

To me its pretty easy to see why I put respect in who I do.


If there's no flip side, then that action isn't necessary for you to respect Sakura; so what action would be necessary for you to respect Sakura, if fighting toward her inevitable death isn't necessary?


The 'no flip side' was in regards to:


So, basically you're saying that if someone values their life above dying to prove a point, they are (as you said of Sakura) not worthy of respect?


as in what I said didn't have this implication within it, it was a self-enclosed thing. Like saying "I love red." doesn't carry a "and hate all other colors" with it, its just simply what it is.

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Posted 5/31/15

xCrimsonEX wrote:

She doesn't fight for anything initially, she doesn't really put forth her point of view at all instead being quiet and subdued, she allows people to walk over her, she drags others (Rider) into her situation allowing them to suffer through traumatic things again, and she'd rather secretly endure Zouken's torture while seemingly leading a 'normal life' rather than try to do something to bring him to some form of justice or to try to get away from him somehow. The closest thing I've seen is Farispie's point about her holding in all the evils (so long as one doesn't read too far into it) and not going world destructor mode would trigger some amount of respect though those are 2 things vs 5 counters. Add to that my inherent dislike of the 'timid submissive' type of female characters and yeah she doesn't have much reason for me to respect her.

vs Saber (who I do respect):
Fights to fix her past, puts forth her objections to both Kiritsugu and Shirou pretty adamantly and even goes out on her own (regardless of recklessness of it), pushes back when Shirou tries to protect her instead wanting if anything him to fight at her side, tries to fight battles on her own and keep others out of danger, would rather set right the past than try to have a happy life, chooses to do toss away the grail when she finds out its true nature, never turns on people of her volition, and endures various hardships yet still maintains herself and her values.

To me its pretty easy to see why I put respect in who I do.



So, basically what you're saying is that, if Merlin, instead of training Saber to become the future king of Britain, had systematically raped and psychologically and physically tortured her into becoming a vessel of pure evil for his own nefarious purposes, she would have fought back, because her concept of justice and sense of right wasn't instilled in her by Merlin, but came from her own inherent sense of justice?
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Posted 5/31/15
I would play the visual novel to understand the story, but I don't want to download the game, play the routes (fate, UBW, and HF) just so my computer can get fucked up. Then there is the fact that I don't know which website(and how and what i need) to download the game.
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Posted 6/1/15

IAgentOmegaI wrote:

I would play the visual novel to understand the story, but I don't want to download the game, play the routes (fate, UBW, and HF) just so my computer can get fucked up. Then there is the fact that I don't know which website(and how and what i need) to download the game.


Watch a play through its a bitch to try and get it to run on a computer.
Posted 6/1/15
pretty interesting
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Posted 6/1/15

IAgentOmegaI wrote:

I would play the visual novel to understand the story, but I don't want to download the game, play the routes (fate, UBW, and HF) just so my computer can get fucked up. Then there is the fact that I don't know which website(and how and what i need) to download the game.


There are generally safe links to get the VN if you are interested.
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Posted 6/1/15 , edited 6/1/15

imaginarycreatures wrote:

So, basically what you're saying is that, if Merlin, instead of training Saber to become the future king of Britain, had systematically raped and psychologically and physically tortured her into becoming a vessel of pure evil for his own nefarious purposes, she would have fought back, because her concept of justice and sense of right wasn't instilled in her by Merlin, but came from her own inherent sense of justice?


Imo (completely speculation because there isn't a way to know for sure: Yes Saber would have fought back because of who she is, especially if this is post drawing Excalibur. She drew the sword in order to change things and knowing its a heavy burden but still drew it showing her resolve/strength of character. She is who she is not because of anything Merlin taught/instilled in her but as her default. She wouldn't withdraw into a shell and not do anything/endure it, especially considering the one thing she hates is being treated as 'weak' or that being a female makes her 'weak' and needing to be protected.

To further the point: Revy (Black Lagoon) is raped (possibly abused by her father, I'll have to look it up to know it for sure but iirc) and instead of becoming a timid mouse, she becomes a badass with authority issues (and I like to think the rapists life ended by one of her bullets). On the male side of things there's Suzuya (Tokyo Ghoul) who was abused to absurd degrees and again became a psychologically damaged badass with no issue fighting against his former abuser.
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