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Post Reply Is spacetime an illusion?
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Posted 5/12/15 , edited 5/12/15
I just found this video and it made me think about a few things, I want to know what the CR community take out of this before I say what I think. https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=198&v=YycAzdtUIko&ab_channel=PBSSpaceTime

So what do you think?


Is spacetime an illusion?
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Posted 5/12/15
I don't think we'll ever know tbh
Or well, we might not know it in our current life time, maybe in a millenium or 2 lol
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Posted 5/12/15 , edited 5/12/15
Heres what I think, OP.

You need to state what your thoughts are on something if you're going to bring it up. Otherwise, you're just fishing for comments and then attempting to figure how to intellectually cop out when you get slammed with facts that go completely against your worldview.

First off, you ask such a general question. Is spacetime an illusion?

Well, here is what you and everyone else needs to answer before you even attempt to answer such a question
What is the underpinning philosophical standards you use to answer the question on what exists? An epistemology, OP.

I want you guys to take a minute and look at this painting of the school of athens close up of Plato and Aristotle


Plato is pointing up and telling Aristotle that the ideal forms are the true reality. In otherwords asking, if there were no triangular shaped objects, would the idea of a triangular shaped entity seize to be?

Aristotle is gesturing his hand down and telling Plato that these things in front of us are the true reality.

So, let me go ahead and tell you what I think, OP. I guess you didn't expect who is an expert in the field of sound physics and metaphysics to reply, but let me go ahead and address what you just linked us to.

"Our experiences of measurements of time and space don't correspond to anything per se. They're more like the x, y grid in Math glass. Useful for talking about the board, but arbitrary and inherently meaningless"
Is that right? Lets stop here folks. This is the only snippet we need from this video.

First of all, that x, y grid is called the Cartesian coordinate system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_coordinate_system) which was invented by Rene Descartes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Descartes).

So, lets backtrack here. When the scientific revolution went into full swing and we we're beginning to pitch the idea of this crazy idea that the sun and stars did not orbit the earth, but rather that the earth and stars are in orbit with the sun. We called it Heliocentrism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliocentrism), and the reason it was pitched and pushed by the scientific revolution is because it was much more sound mathematical model that more accurately tells us what our reality was like. In fact, Newton and Leibniz took this even further in their approaches to the applied and theoretical physics. The very triumphs of their discoveries was done on the fact that they STOPPED LOOKING AT HOW IT APPEARED AND INSTEAD CAME UP WITH IDEAL MATHEMATICAL FORMS. THEN THEY SAW IF THOSE THEORIES WERE TRUE. Thats right! They did the math before they observed because our senses are fallible.

Heres a quick exercise. How fast are you moving right now based on how you feel?



Look, I'm going to cut this short. and repeat the quote from the video once again
"Our experiences of measurements of time and space don't correspond to anything per se. They're more like the x, y grid in Math glass. Useful for talking about the board, but arbitrary and inherently meaningless"
They don't correspond to anything? Its arbitrary and inherently meaningless? Yeah, I think about 2000 years of rigorous and well thought out mathematical work pretty much tell us your opinion is wrong.

If you have a theory and want to tell people its correct, then be prepared to show us evidence. If your theory is just speculation then be prepared to be laughed at by 2000 years of geniuses. So far, there hasn't been a B time theorist who can prove the position. I'll just leave you guys with that.

Is spacetime an illusion? No. End of story.
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Posted 5/12/15 , edited 5/12/15
If you are going to link a video make sure you watch it properly first.

Is spacetime an illusion? NO.

The video is saying that space and time do not exist independently of each other, they are just parts of spacetime.

So in a sense space and time are illusions but spacetime is not. It's physics not philosophy.
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Posted 5/12/15

Nuclearspy wrote:
They did the math before they observed because our senses are fallible.


I intend no rudeness, but are you really going to try and downplay the role of observation in science like that? If my memory serves me correctly, it was ignoring observations that got the world into the mess that was the geocentric model in the first place.

To actually weigh in on the original subject, I would say no, I can't agree that spacetime is an illusion. I can't say that our perception is a hundred percent correct, but I also seriously doubt that we are a hundred percent wrong. I also did not see where the the video could be said to be saying something like that. I would really suggest looking into the mathematical side, if you are so inclined. You can gain a lot of knowledge about physics from intuitive and conceptual approaches, but there is some fine grain detail that you miss out on completely if you don't take that approach, and some things...well, they just don't make much sense without the math. Additionally, I would state they were primarily talking about special relativity, and the math you need to understand that is fairly trivial, so I would encourage you to check it out OP.
Posted 5/12/15 , edited 5/12/15
This is truly a mind****.

If the future already exists, is there any point in existence? How awful.



Sometimes I do feel like the future already exists; because no matter how hard I tried to resist a piece of cake, but I couldn't do it. Think I'm meant to die of clogged arteries or heart attack.
Posted 5/12/15 , edited 5/12/15
The video sounds as though it's advocating that spacetime itself is real and instead our separate perceptions of space and time are illusions, not spacetime itself.

Personally, I think both are real, but are just different ways of perceiving spacetime. Personally, I don't think space and time are illusions. It's just a different way of looking at things. You separate the parts from the whole, but it doesn't make it any less of the whole.

Ummm, this is just how I look at it, but let me give an an analogy.



But i'm no physicist or philosopher ~ just some random guy with his own way of looking at things (which might well change at some point anyway), so that's just me.
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Posted 5/12/15
Space time is real. I'm the illusion.
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Posted 5/12/15
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z39P-OKKTs4

This was all I could think about when I read the title.
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Posted 5/12/15
Of course spacetime is real. If it was not I would be unable to experience it.
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Posted 5/12/15 , edited 5/12/15
I honestly found the video confusing. I stopped roughly 3/4ths of the way through because it felt like there were two discussions at one. Part of this it that it seems like two different discussions are going on at once. He's at point introducing special relativity while also interlacing it with woo, and it's hard to separate the two.

The video goes wrong at the beginning when it says that events can happen in any order. That's too broad a statement: any event that occurs with a different location and different time can occur in any other order. If I drink tea then go to bed, everyone will agree I drank tea before I went to bed because it happened at the same location (ignore, if you will, the fact I need to move small distances to get tea and climb into bed--just assume I can do it). And that's the problem: my future isn't predetermined because of special relativity.

This isn't hard to show either. He said it in the video too--causality. Look at this for reference: http://astro.kent.ac.uk/mds/Modules/1112/PH604/ph604-SR11-2.pdf (pages 6-9). In order for me to go to bed before drinking tea in someone else's frame, stuff needs to go faster in light. The fact they don't (which an ad hoc assumption because it results in many time paradoxes) is what rules out the fact that 'my future' is someone else's present.

To put another, people agree on the sequence of events provided that the sequence of events occur in the same location.

[hr]

At least, this is how I think it works. Special relativity isn't my favorite subject so I could be wrong about how I'm interpreted causality.
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Posted 5/12/15 , edited 5/12/15
we don't exist, we are all in a program made by our future selves!
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Posted 5/12/15

seekerperson7 wrote:

The video sounds as though it's advocating that spacetime itself is real and instead our separate perceptions of space and time are illusions, not spacetime itself.

Personally, I think both are real, but are just different ways of perceiving spacetime. Personally, I don't think space and time are illusions. It's just a different way of looking at things. You separate the parts from the whole, but it doesn't make it any less of the whole.

Ummm, this is just how I look at it, but let me give an an analogy.



But i'm no physicist or philosopher ~ just some random guy with his own way of looking at things (which might well change at some point anyway), so that's just me.


I personally think that spacetime exists and isn't a illusion, however I'd say humans have constructed the concept of time due to how the modern world works.

And 1 hour when you're young can feel like a really long time where as an hour for an adult is really short which means that diffrant people may perceive time difrantly, which just happen to be one of the things he brings up in the video.

This means that my theory after this video is that time as it works today is a byproduct of tousends of years of human evolution
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Posted 5/12/15
will you take the red pill or the blue pill
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Posted 5/12/15

kaiju_otaku wrote:

we don't exist, we are all in a program made by our future selves!


But if we don't exist then how come our future self exist?
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