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Post Reply Is the death penalty not enough for some crimes?
Posted 5/22/15
Yes, vacuum their soul after they die. Then you've shown them.


*Yes I got this from Itchy and Scratchy*
Posted 5/22/15 , edited 5/22/15
I brought this up in another thread - but the answer is "No, I don't think it's always enough"

The argument I was making there was that, in an ideal scenario, the law would enact justice. Thus, there would be an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life - adequate compensation for damages and inconveniences. To this end, I said that I wasn't against the death penalty in principle because I see it as a form of justice.

HOWEVER - i'd also like to note here for people who didn't see that post that I went on to clarify my stance against the death penalty afterward, and I was speaking as to why I wasn't against it in principle not in practice.

But you immediately see the problem with this idealistic view - if someone takes more than one life, it's not possible to enact true justice, since a person doesn't have two lives to offer as recompense. Thus, I do feel like the death penalty isn't enough for some crimes - particularly crimes in which more than one person is killed.

However, you can only expect so much justice from a legal system before things just get impractical (or downright impossible in this case). So while I don't think it's enough for some crimes, I don't argue for anything worse. Actually, I don't even argue for the death penalty itself, but that's another story.

I also never advocate dehumanizing criminals. I brought up this topic in yet another thread for two reasons.
1) People can change
2) It's just self-serving to say "people who do this aren't human". It makes humanity look better than it is by removing the bad apples. Nope - they're human. Humans do terrible things.
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Posted 5/22/15 , edited 5/22/15
The three things this community is obsessed with the most: Death penalty, feminism, and religion. None of those three things should ever mix.
Posted 5/22/15 , edited 5/22/15

PhantomGundam wrote:

The two things this community is obsessed with the most: Death penalty and feminism.


Did you miss all the threads on religion and race? Good times.... good times....

Nah ~ it's just anything controversial. Sometimes things like race, feminism, and the death penalty gets spikes in interest due to current events though.
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Posted 5/22/15

J-POP187 wrote:

If it was up to me these types of people already prove they were worthless in regular society by first choosing to commit a crime. While I support capital punishment 100% because we are forced to do it humanly. The only way I would change my stance is if we allowed scientist to tests out diseases and cures on these criminals. Make there worthless lives mean something. OF course that would never happen in the states and that's a shame because imagine how many diseases may be cured if we did this to people who lives had no positive value to society.



KnightOfZero1991 wrote:

That is actually ingenious. We can't have the crime undone, so might as well punish them while getting some benefit for society out of it. It really is a shame, I'm betting not many other people here would agree with this rather effective approach.


Are you shitting me right now?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buchenwald_concentration_camp
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Posted 5/22/15
I'm pretty ambivalent about the death penalty in the first place. On the one hand, it's more cost and space efficient to deal with some criminals in this way, but I think that's the death penalty's only valid defense. I don't believe in vengeance as justice, and I don't necessarily subscribe to justice being a good thing in the first place. I'm more a supporter of rehabilitation where possible, with justice being most useful as a sort of threat over the heads of would-be criminals, but a waste when actually carried out. The goal should be to make sure someone won't do something inconvenient again, rather than to make them suffer because of what they've done.

With that in mind, yes, I think the death penalty is the worst we should be seeing within the justice system, and I see no reason not to do it in a humane way if we're going to do it at all. Revenge is an ugly thing, and succumbing too far to it can be damaging to a person's reputation and relationships. Best not to encourage that sort of self-destructive behaviour by condoning or celebrating it.

I do support the idea of subjecting certain violent criminals to medical research, though. The idea of enduring dangerous and unpredictable testing, to me anyway, seems far more terrifying than being killed, so I'd hazard to guess that it would be a more effective deterrent than the punishments we have now, and that sort of research has all kinds of potential to yield useful knowledge. If it's a choice between destroying a person or making use of them, the latter seems far more reasonable to me; I would argue that this sort of procedure should replace the death penalty.

Again, though, I don't see the point in making a criminal suffer solely for justice; it seems barbaric to me.
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Posted 5/22/15 , edited 5/22/15

BlueOni wrote:


J-POP187 wrote:

If it was up to me these types of people already prove they were worthless in regular society by first choosing to commit a crime. While I support capital punishment 100% because we are forced to do it humanly. The only way I would change my stance is if we allowed scientist to tests out diseases and cures on these criminals. Make there worthless lives mean something. OF course that would never happen in the states and that's a shame because imagine how many diseases may be cured if we did this to people who lives had no positive value to society.



KnightOfZero1991 wrote:

That is actually ingenious. We can't have the crime undone, so might as well punish them while getting some benefit for society out of it. It really is a shame, I'm betting not many other people here would agree with this rather effective approach.


Are you shitting me right now?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buchenwald_concentration_camp


"Prisoners from all over Europe and the Soviet Union—Jews, Poles and other Slavs, the mentally ill and physically-disabled from birth defects, religious and political prisoners, Roma and Sinti, Freemasons, Jehovah's Witnesses (then called Bible Students), criminals, homosexuals, and prisoners of war."

See what is wrong with this? Prisoners were likely to be a very small portion of this. It was primarily a political/religious matter, using prisoners was just a bonus to them. Comparing homosexuals and the disabled to rapists and pedos.. you think that's a fair comparison? Perhaps if the legal system wasn't an absolute train wreck and people could actually better themselves from their time in there, but is that going to ever happen, unlikely.

I can understand if you are against the death penalty in general, as I know some claim to be, nothing wrong with saying that as there are many people falsely imprisoned, but for certain undeniable proof crimes of rape and so forth, I would put aside personal belief to try and make something of a truly terrible situation, we can never erase them for what they have done and no level of 'revenge' with make those effected feel better, so I'd rather use the punishment as a means of helping society.

I'll respect your opinion, but don't go so far off base as to bring Nazism into this, the situations are far too different to even make the comparison.



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Posted 5/22/15

BlueOni wrote:


J-POP187 wrote:

If it was up to me these types of people already prove they were worthless in regular society by first choosing to commit a crime. While I support capital punishment 100% because we are forced to do it humanly. The only way I would change my stance is if we allowed scientist to tests out diseases and cures on these criminals. Make there worthless lives mean something. OF course that would never happen in the states and that's a shame because imagine how many diseases may be cured if we did this to people who lives had no positive value to society.



KnightOfZero1991 wrote:

That is actually ingenious. We can't have the crime undone, so might as well punish them while getting some benefit for society out of it. It really is a shame, I'm betting not many other people here would agree with this rather effective approach.


Are you shitting me right now?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buchenwald_concentration_camp



I love it when the first thing people do is compare things to Nazism. First the people in the camps were civilians they weren't convicted murderers. Also note these civilians in these death camps where never given trails and the few who did get trails "i.e. the rich or influential of that time", were not allowed to argue evidence or present their own evidence. What I'm talking about are people who been given there day in court and yes after the whole trial and appeal process they were still found guilty. Please keep try to keep examples to more modern times. Once a crime has been done it can never be taken back so why should people who could care less about life and society rules garner more sympathy than their victims? While I understand your against the death penalty in any form, you must realize that more than half the country supports capital punishment.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/gallup-poll-who-supports-death-penalty

As for making use of the condemned I would give more credit to America. If they actually started testing on people I firmly believe they would do everything in there power to make sure they reduce any unnecessary pain. But let be honest this would never happen in the states. At best I would hope for anyone on death row would be encourage to sign over their organs for someone who really needs them.

Finally what would be your solution? I believe capital punishment gives closer to the victims. I have no sympathy to people who are willing take a innocent life. Although let me makes this clear I understand the fear of executing an innocent by mistake is what turns many people off from capital punishment. As we discuss before the evidence of someone guilt " cameras never lie,multiple witness reports that i.d. the same person" are what would put my mind at ease if such a thing should ever happen.
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Posted 5/22/15

piratequeen369 wrote:


byClear wrote:

Crimes like this against innocent families and people, I can't explain how frustrated these make me knowing that the criminals in these cases get a better treatment than the victims. If it were up to me, people like the suspect in this case, would be tortured beyond what I would care to discuss. To me, criminals that carry out these kinds of acts shouldn't even be recognized as a human anymore and should have all their human rights dropped. Then we can do whatever we want to them until they die.

That's my opinion on the matter and I'm want to know everyone else's take on crimes like this. Is Life Locked Up/ Humane Execution enough? Or should there be more punishment for criminals like this?


That's called revenge, it's not a punishment nor is death a punishment, it's simply getting rid of who you don't like. Call the death penalty what it is, not a punishment. A punishment is what you give to people who you want to improve their behavior, making someone go through aimless suffering is just a plain old crime.


It is a little thing called Justice, given them exactly what they deserve. You have to be some kind of sicko to defend murders
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Posted 5/22/15

wolfbrother0 wrote:


piratequeen369 wrote:


byClear wrote:

Crimes like this against innocent families and people, I can't explain how frustrated these make me knowing that the criminals in these cases get a better treatment than the victims. If it were up to me, people like the suspect in this case, would be tortured beyond what I would care to discuss. To me, criminals that carry out these kinds of acts shouldn't even be recognized as a human anymore and should have all their human rights dropped. Then we can do whatever we want to them until they die.

That's my opinion on the matter and I'm want to know everyone else's take on crimes like this. Is Life Locked Up/ Humane Execution enough? Or should there be more punishment for criminals like this?


That's called revenge, it's not a punishment nor is death a punishment, it's simply getting rid of who you don't like. Call the death penalty what it is, not a punishment. A punishment is what you give to people who you want to improve their behavior, making someone go through aimless suffering is just a plain old crime.


It is a little thing called Justice, given them exactly what they deserve. You have to be some kind of sicko to defend murders


Revenge isn't justice, it's just retaliation caused by passionate but thoughtless anger. I can understand the death penalty for terrorists but really, torturing is sinking down to their level, if you want torture for crime, go live in the Middle East and see if you'll like it, what was it? 30 lashes with a whip for a woman if she steals? You don't have to be a natural born criminal to do that, you could just be messing around with friends. Anyway, the thing is, sometimes innocent people framed for a crime will get tortured, not a good idea.
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Posted 5/22/15

piratequeen369 wrote:


wolfbrother0 wrote:


piratequeen369 wrote:


byClear wrote:

Crimes like this against innocent families and people, I can't explain how frustrated these make me knowing that the criminals in these cases get a better treatment than the victims. If it were up to me, people like the suspect in this case, would be tortured beyond what I would care to discuss. To me, criminals that carry out these kinds of acts shouldn't even be recognized as a human anymore and should have all their human rights dropped. Then we can do whatever we want to them until they die.

That's my opinion on the matter and I'm want to know everyone else's take on crimes like this. Is Life Locked Up/ Humane Execution enough? Or should there be more punishment for criminals like this?


That's called revenge, it's not a punishment nor is death a punishment, it's simply getting rid of who you don't like. Call the death penalty what it is, not a punishment. A punishment is what you give to people who you want to improve their behavior, making someone go through aimless suffering is just a plain old crime.


It is a little thing called Justice, given them exactly what they deserve. You have to be some kind of sicko to defend murders


Revenge isn't justice, it's just retaliation caused by passionate but thoughtless anger. I can understand the death penalty for terrorists but really, torturing is sinking down to their level, if you want torture for crime, go live in the Middle East and see if you'll like it, what was it? 30 lashes with a whip for a woman if she steals? You don't have to be a natural born criminal to do that, you could just be messing around with friends. Anyway, the thing is, sometimes innocent people framed for a crime will get tortured, not a good idea.


It being revenge is just your opinion which is caused by a backwards love of criminals and ignorance. Some crimes the only punishment that fits is death. To treat criminals of that level as anything other than animals is insane. The death penalty is not torture by the way.
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Posted 5/22/15
New penalty - painful death. In this you will be guillotined (from hands and feet) closer and closer until you have no arms or legs. Then they will end your misery. That is the only penalty I could come up with that would be worse than just the plain death penalty. The end is the same, but the path is very different.
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Posted 5/22/15 , edited 5/23/15

KnightOfZero1991 wrote:

"Prisoners from all over Europe and the Soviet Union—Jews, Poles and other Slavs, the mentally ill and physically-disabled from birth defects, religious and political prisoners, Roma and Sinti, Freemasons, Jehovah's Witnesses (then called Bible Students), criminals, homosexuals, and prisoners of war."

See what is wrong with this? Prisoners were likely to be a very small portion of this. It was primarily a political/religious matter, using prisoners was just a bonus to them. Comparing homosexuals and the disabled to rapists and pedos.. you think that's a fair comparison? Perhaps if the legal system wasn't an absolute train wreck and people could actually better themselves from their time in there, but is that going to ever happen, unlikely.


No, I don't see what's wrong there. The reason why is because you're just shuffling around the fact that the proposal you're supporting explicitly calls for the state to be endowed with the power to deny human research subjects one of the most crucial and basic rights any ought to be afforded: the right to refuse consent to participate in and withdraw from experimentation. The rationale behind this proposal is that convicts on death row are intrinsically "worthless" (one might venture to use the word subhuman), and so do not deserve even that right.

It doesn't matter if you're taking away the right to refuse or withdraw consent to be experimented upon because someone's a murderer. The state shouldn't ever be endowed with that power. The state shouldn't be able to force people to participate in human experimentation without their consent, or even to be allowed to refuse them the opportunity to withdraw consent to participate.

As for the bit about the justice system's various problems and the issue of recidivism posing major challenges? Yes, they do. That does not, however, mean that transforming the prison system into a pool for involuntary human research subjects is a good idea, let alone an ethical one.


I can understand if you are against the death penalty in general, as I know some claim to be, nothing wrong with saying that as there are many people falsely imprisoned, but for certain undeniable proof crimes of rape and so forth, I would put aside personal belief to try and make something of a truly terrible situation, we can never erase them for what they have done and no level of 'revenge' with make those effected feel better, so I'd rather use the punishment as a means of helping society.

I'll respect your opinion, but don't go so far off base as to bring Nazism into this, the situations are far too different to even make the comparison.


It's not some unrelated topic. It's immediately relevant to the proposal being laid out by you and J-POP. You're proposing a breach of research ethics which were born in part because of the deeds at Buchenwald. It is entirely relevant to point to the abuses committed by researchers at that camp in a discussion where no less than two people have proposed that research subjects ought not bear the protection of a requirement that they give informed consent.
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Posted 5/22/15
I thought we'd moved on from Hammurabi.
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Posted 5/22/15
Capital punishment is arguably too much already, why would we want to reintroduce medieval style torture as well?
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