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Post Reply Who determines the value of human life society of individuals?
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Posted 6/7/15

anzn wrote:

Christianity isn't actually anti-LGBT though. Which is why, I said it's not even actual Christian beliefs either. It's just THEIR beliefs but they say it's Christianity's. Basically they're extremists.


No, the bible is undenyably homophobic.

As for whether christians are homophobic or not, that's up to how you define "homophobic"
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Posted 6/7/15
The right to life is what defines us as human beings.
As a human being, your most fundamental right is life. It's unconditional.
Justifying why someone has the right to live, is a dehumanizing act in and of itself.

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Posted 6/7/15
Morals and human decency is just common sense really. I'm an atheist so I don't believe in God. I don't think there is a God that has to outline the rules for us. We should know them instinctively. And life is more meaningful if you don't believe in God, because it means you have one life to use. And you're living for you, not because someone created you.

All of that is my opinion, which I have stated in a calm and inoffensive manner without insulting anyone. But let's watch it get edited or removed anyone. Because I can't say anything. But other people can insult every single minority on planet earth.

Posted 6/7/15

silversongwriter wrote:


anzn wrote:

Christianity isn't actually anti-LGBT though. Which is why, I said it's not even actual Christian beliefs either. It's just THEIR beliefs but they say it's Christianity's. Basically they're extremists.


No, the bible is undenyably homophobic.

As for whether christians are homophobic or not, that's up to how you define "homophobic"

Not really...
Of course, they never taught you in core history classes about this stuff. The European Christian's went around the world to steal, kill, and force THEIR BELIEFS on others. Not Christianity's beliefs. That's basically what a extremist is. Kinda like the ones who bombed the Twin Towers in 9/11. They weren't Muslims, they were really just extremists. You'd know this because in Islam, they do not believe in condoning in violence, no matter what the circumstance. They do not believe in forcing their beliefs onto others as well, but anyone is allowed to join their religion if they want.
In the Bible it pretty much said stuff like, "Do not judge others." Yet these Christian's did that, & still do that, to this day "Do not kill." But these Christian's still went around killing others for not liking their beliefs & judging them for it. And still do that, to this day. America was practically created by these extremist christian beliefs.
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Posted 6/7/15

anzn wrote:


silversongwriter wrote:


anzn wrote:

Christianity isn't actually anti-LGBT though. Which is why, I said it's not even actual Christian beliefs either. It's just THEIR beliefs but they say it's Christianity's. Basically they're extremists.


No, the bible is undenyably homophobic.

As for whether christians are homophobic or not, that's up to how you define "homophobic"

Not really...
Of course, they never taught you in core history classes about this stuff. The European Christian's went around the world to steal, kill, and force THEIR BELIEFS on others. Not Christianity's beliefs. That's basically what a extremist is. Kinda like the ones who bombed the Twin Towers in 9/11. They weren't Muslims, they were really just extremists. You'd know this because in Islam, they do not believe in condoning in violence, no matter what the circumstance. They do not believe in forcing their beliefs onto others as well, but anyone is allowed to join their religion if they want.
In the Bible it pretty much said stuff like, "Do not judge others." Yet these Christian's did that, & still do that, to this day "Do not kill." But these Christian's still went around killing others for not liking their beliefs & judging them for it. And still do that, to this day. America was practically created by these extremist christian beliefs.


Well, like I said. The bible does condemn homosexuality. It depends on whether you think it's "homophobic" to see it as a sin, or whether you have to actually hate them to be "homophobic". Most christians do not hate gays, but most of them still think it's a sin. Whether you consider that "anti-gay" is up to you

As for the bible itself. I think if God is gonna send them to hell, it's pretty clear he has a problem with them.
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Posted 6/8/15

silversongwriter wrote:


ZenZaku wrote:

I see your point and I too entertained these thoughts. Existentialist questions are rather fun to ponder. As our society sits right now, we believe that a person determines their own value, however their value depends on the scale society has set out. Personal value is one thing, societal value is another. Both should be considered as separate things, not one or the other.

At this moment in history, people who are discriminatory against blacks, gays, or many other distinctions people have given themselves are quickly attacked for their ideals. A question to be asked is why do these people not deserve a say? What's so wrong about their ideals, do they not deserve a form of protection from the majority that disagrees with them? So right now, this attitude can be construed as you either allow everyone to do as they please or else society will ridicule and ostracize you. Is this right? Society deems that it is, and society seriously outweighs the self in terms of numbers.
The thing is, these empty silhouettes can say whatever they want through the anonymity of the internet; and through the force of social change. But at the level of self will you believe what they say? When you look at the idea of confirmation bias, you will surround yourself with those who think as you do. This is a defense against society, is it not? It is also a way for you to use the society to help influence your value of self. Everyone who follows along with, I'm going to call it the Awareness Mentality, right here and now are feeling rather good about themselves. They're sticking up for everyone's right to be who they are and to not feel bad about being born with the things that cannot be changed. The groups who disagree with the Awareness Mentality are being pushed out and shamed, be it publicly or on the internet. Their value of self must come from the small, in terms to society as a whole, groups in order to ward off these vast blows to their egos.

There is a thread on the front page of the general discussion about a man who confronts some "thugs" and gets beaten up for doing so. Is this man right for challenging the dominant society in his area, or is he wrong for going against the society's wishes?


Well... I believe in a God and some level of objective morality. And most importantly, I believe men and women have souls. Otherwise, I'd say no human life has value.

Without a soul, you'd be forced to believe the human brain is 100% of our conciousness. Meaning who we are is determined by birth and environment. If there's no soul, then human being are like adaptable AI programs. Killing a human and killing a NPC from GTA are one in the same unless you believe in some god or a soul. Otherwise, what's the difference?

The brain is an electrical device
A video game is an electrical device.
A human learns and adapts to it's surroundings
A NPC learns and adapts to it's surroundings
A human mind is powered by electrical signals
A NPC is powered by digital coding

I'd say with no god, and no objective morality... Human live has 0 value


So let me just cut to the chase here:

Believing in a god of whatever religion or code doesn't change the social programming we all endured as children. The golden rule and other such things were devised in order to not have everyone thinking absolutely nothing of everyone else.

Our consciousness is our soul. Or depending on what you've read into pyschology/philosophy, the Id. The thing that makes us who we are, whatever it is, is the ever-lasting fluff of religion. And yes, this thing is how we are raised in our environments and how we shape our beliefs as we grow.

The difference between killing some random pedestrian in GTA or some random pedestrian in real life is that in real life, you go to jail and assuming you get parole you now have a black mark that makes people hate you, this will follow you until your Life x1 vanishes. In GTA, the pixelated cops come and possibly kill your pixelated character, which then respawns and you continue with the game out a bit of money and some weapons/ammo. The thing that real life consequences have that GTA consequences don't, are a long lasting impact on you.

-The brain operates due to electrical impulses that jump from synapse to synapse.

-A video game system operates by electrical current being pulled into it to run the mechanical devices and also to get the HDD and disc reader running.

-We learn as we are exposed to life.

-An NPC will behave only in the limited manners they are allowed. This is because NPCs in GTA have been coded to behave certain ways and cannot rise above or out of them. The difference is we humans are free to "buck our coding" and do whatever if we choose.

-The brain works via electrical discharges, that's about all we know so far.

-This digital coding will not expand, it will remain static until it is given an update.

I do agree with the parallels between us as humans and NPCs, however it's a generalization at best.

Part of the issue I see here is that you believe that without some adherence to a religion, an individual cannot have a set of agreed upon morals that reflect society at large. This is grossly illogical. Though no one can be sure, it is largely possible that these ideals of kindness and the other things of morality have been around since the beginning of humanity. It was then set in stone as the core of the world religions as a way to immortalize them to the masses of the old world. The difference between our times was that news traveled slowly. A group of bandits could operate with a degree of impunity due to how inaccurate intel was. So there was a need to make people feel that even if they got away Scott free, in the end they'd be sorry.

Now it is entirely possible that the Bible and the other religious texts were at one point actually straight from the deity's "mouth." The problem is then we humans got a hold of it. Then we decided to let it, and the people who championed it, rule us. These texts then became political tools to control. Regardless of authenticity of divine existence.

And finally, your response seems geared more in the vain of whether life as a whole has meaning, instead of determining how we and society are at odds in deciding the value of each individual.
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Posted 6/8/15


Nope

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Posted 6/8/15 , edited 6/8/15
The Bible is pretty much pointing out that ALL PEOPLE are sinners and can't help it so they must turn to God for any hope of not going to hell. It is saying that all sin is equally detestable in the eyes of a pure God. The Bible doesn't really encourage hatred of people, just hatred of sin. It's the believers who never get it right. The same applies to a number of other religions, if not all other religions, including Islam.

In response to OP's first post, I must say that the value of human life or of the individual is not decided by any one person. Even if one tyrant or dictator makes all the rules determining worth, his rules don't do anything if there are no people enforcing them and no people following them. It's decided by nobody, yet decided by everybody. This is due to the mainstream values that inevitably emerge as a number of people gather together to form a society. It is the collective behaviors and values of the people that determine the worth of the individual, in my opinion. These behaviors and values change over time, so an individual in one point in time could have been of differing worth, depending on the society in which he/she lives.
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Posted 6/8/15 , edited 6/8/15
I think my life matters. Or at least I'd like to think so. So does everyone else's.

By the way, I know a few LGBT+ people who are religious. My mother included. Used to be, anyways. She believed the bible was up for interpretation.
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Posted 6/8/15
So for this whole bible talk, it's written by many individuals, and over many ages, it's a steaming pile of hypocrisy if you were to try and take it at face value. The bible is the face of Christianity, so the religion itself is inherently flawed and corrupt. It's only the induction of free will and personal interpretation that can actually give religion any positive bearing..it's pretty much the same as almost any religion though. Given this, what sense is there in determining value of life through religion.

I'm agnostic myself, and while I can't sit with any current religion, there probably is some sort of god, whether this is an actual deity, or just a object/entity that determines the laws of the universe, who knows. The value of human life? as much as we are just another species living on this Earth, it's just nature that we would determine ourselves to be above else, after all, one inherently puts themselves in front of all their actions, even when helping others, it's merely self-satisfaction. On that, a neutral stance would be to value all human life equally. Taking humanity as a collective, as a single entity, anything that threatens the whole, is definitely foregoes it's value in the system, thus murderers, rapists, etc. who threaten the integrity of the system, 'society,' loses it's value.

It's always interesting to discuss at what point one becomes a threat to the whole, in terms of punishment, and how society determines that threshold, but in my opinion it comes down to humanity's prime directive, self-preservation.
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Posted 6/8/15
I determine the value of my own life. No one determines the value of my life or ever will. The same goes for everyone else's life.
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