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Post Reply Is it possible selfishness isn't the real problem?
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Posted 6/10/15

Ejanss wrote:


Animegirlzvstheworld wrote:


Ejanss wrote:


Animegirlzvstheworld wrote:


Ejanss wrote:Remember when he asked, "What do people think of me? (picture of Dick Dastardly)"?

I wanted to answer, but I couldn't find a picture of Andy Kaufman as Tony Clifton.


Well, maybe you should get a pic of Mel Gibson or Henry Kissinger.

Or Ed Gein.


Huh?? They're not pathetically failed standup comics (from a performer gratingly in love with his own stage presence)!


Maybe Pee-wee Herman?


Erm.....only in the public-masturbatory sense.





How bout Larry Harmon(AKA Bozo the Clown)?
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Posted 6/10/15


Your premise that most poeple dont have giving and selflessness as core values is somewhat ridiculous
The majority of the worlds population (including Catholics) are Christians
Then there are many muslims and bhuddists
Most people BELEIVE in selflessness, practice is another thing entirely
People know they should be kinder and more giving, they just dont want to

As for the ayn rand stuff, its a fun fantasy like any other. But big goverment is good at one thing, and thats crushing any threats to itself
And considering the western lifestyle, its really not that bad anyway, more annoying really than dangerous, like the DMV, no, exactly like the DMV
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Posted 6/10/15
Well, giving is in self interest, even if your the cruelest most evil of dictators, it is to your benefit to have a placated (happy) populace that is healthy and safe enough to work. Many tyrants throughout history have done amazing things for hummanity that really helped poeple, but were also magolamaniacs who only did it so they had an empire strong enough to compete with their enemies.
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Posted 6/10/15 , edited 6/10/15

silversongwriter wrote:Yea... it is serving self interests. However, if helping others were part of peoples self-interests, then the world would be a much better place. To truly have than ingrained within you can make you a joyful giver, and not just someone who gives out of the sake of societal expectations of pressure.


How would it be a better place? It would be exactly the same except people would have to rely on others to find happiness.

The only way the world can be a "better" place is if we agree on an objective standard to strive for and get closer to it. In this case you say that objective standard is "self interest" but because you believe self interest can be fulfilled in two completely different ways (being selfish and being selfless) it doesn't logically matter whether one is fulfilled over the other. In fact it seems to me that being selfish is the far easier choice to make over the two and thus the "better" option.

Well if you want to make the world a "better" place you should probably start by coming up with an objective philosophy for yourself that maps out a straight path to follow rather than one with a fork in the road.
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Posted 6/10/15

Tethealla wrote:


silversongwriter wrote:Yea... it is serving self interests. However, if helping others were part of peoples self-interests, then the world would be a much better place. To truly have than ingrained within you can make you a joyful giver, and not just someone who gives out of the sake of societal expectations of pressure.


How would it be a better place? It would be exactly the same except people would have to rely on others to find happiness.

The only way the world can be a "better" place is if we agree on an objective standard to strive for and get closer to it. In this case you say that objective standard is "self interest" but because you believe self interest can be fulfilled in two completely different ways (being selfish and being selfless) it doesn't logically matter whether one is fulfilled over the other. In fact it seems to me that being selfish is the far easier choice to make over the two and thus the "better" option.

Well if you want to make the world a "better" place you should probably start by coming up with an objective philosophy for yourself that maps out a straight path to follow rather than one with a fork in the road.


I'm just saying it'd be nice if people were more generous. And I think if generosity was part of peoples value system, more people would understand the joy of giving. If more people get joy out of giving, more people would give things... And giving things to people is a good thing.
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Posted 6/10/15

silversongwriter wrote:I'm just saying it'd be nice if people were more generous. And I think if generosity was part of peoples value system, more people would understand the joy of giving. If more people get joy out of giving, more people would give things... And giving things to people is a good thing.


I guess my question is: why?
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Posted 6/10/15

Tethealla wrote:


silversongwriter wrote:I'm just saying it'd be nice if people were more generous. And I think if generosity was part of peoples value system, more people would understand the joy of giving. If more people get joy out of giving, more people would give things... And giving things to people is a good thing.


I guess my question is: why?


Are you seriously asking me why giving to those less fortunate is a good thing?
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Posted 6/10/15

silversongwriter wrote:Are you seriously asking me why giving to those less fortunate is a good thing?


Yes. I'm curious what your answer is
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Posted 6/10/15 , edited 6/10/15

Tethealla wrote:


silversongwriter wrote:Are you seriously asking me why giving to those less fortunate is a good thing?


Yes. I'm curious what your answer is


Well... because it helps people. Cause it makes people smile, because it inspires others... I don't see how generosity isn't a good thing
I guess if you seriosuly don't care about others, being generous can sometimes be good because a lot of people will return the favor.

You know, you need to watch some MLP. Then the magic of friendship would help you understand.
That goes for everyone on this thread. Y'all niggas need Celestia
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Posted 6/10/15 , edited 6/10/15

Animegirlzvstheworld wrote:


Ejanss wrote:


Animegirlzvstheworld wrote:
What can I say?

This guy, I just...

I can't say it, I just can't.


Remember when he asked, "What do people think of me? (picture of Dick Dastardly)"?

I wanted to answer, but I couldn't find a picture of Andy Kaufman as Tony Clifton.


Well, maybe you should get a pic of Mel Gibson or Henry Kissinger.

Or Ed Gein.


Leave Mel Gibson alone, it was that womans fault he said those things
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Posted 6/10/15

eclair-lumiere wrote:

Selfishness is a basic human instinct really. It's a natural survival instinct to look out for yourself before others. Not to mention it's hard to be generous when being kind to people doesn't seem to get you anywhere these days.


I'm glad I'm older. The instincts are more easily controlled due to experience. Having suffered more makes a person grumpier but more willing to give time, effort and materials to the needy. When I was young I was more likely to laugh at you or not give a crap. It's harder to laugh or not give a crap after years of suffering the walk on the mortal coil. I ain't even done yet. By the time I die I'll be as sour and grumpy as an old bitter lemon, but giving away what I have left. Damn kids get off my lawn!! Here have a Popsicle....
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Posted 6/10/15 , edited 6/10/15

silversongwriter wrote:Well... because it helps people. Cause it makes people smile, because it inspires others... I don't see how generosity isn't a good thing
Okay so why are any of those things important? Didn't you say it's in our nature to serve our self interests? So you believe we must go against our nature in order to be "good" correct?

That's just an argument for sheer survival and the maximization of pleasure though, there's nothing really substantial to be discussed about that in my opinion. I mean all men die eventually so the way I see it living merely for pleasure/survival is effectively pointless


silversongwriter wrote:You know, you need to watch some MLP. Then the magic of friendship would help you understand.
That goes for everyone on this thread. Y'all niggas need Celestia
I do actually, I love cartoons and think its the best out right now
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Posted 6/10/15 , edited 6/10/15

Tethealla wrote:

Okay so why are any of those things important? Didn't you say it's in our nature to serve our self interests? So you believe we must go against our nature in order to be "good" correct?


You know what... Yes. It's good to go against ones nature. We humans have created morality (which is subjective, but it's still exist within peoples minds), culture, values, traditions, societies religion, technology, and all sorts of things that affect our view point. Why not use such things to better us as a people?
Why would we not use the one thing that makes us special above all other life forms on earth. I think a culture of generosity would be nice. A culture where giving to others is part of ones basic values would create peace and harmony. If people obtained joy from giving, then it would make everyone feel good. both the giver and recipient.
If it makes people feel good, it's probably good.

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Posted 6/10/15

silversongwriter wrote:You know what... Yes. It's good to go against ones nature. We humans have created morality (which is subjective, but it's still exist within peoples minds), culture, values, traditions, societies religion, technology, and all sorts of things that affect our view point. Why not use such things to better us as a people?
Why would we not use the one thing that makes us special above all other life forms on earth. I think a culture of generosity would be nice. A culture where giving to others is part of ones basic values would create peace and harmony. If people obtained joy from giving, then it would make everyone feel good. both the giver and recipient.
If it makes people feel good, it's probably good.


So I've got a few points to make here:

1. Why is it good to go against our nature? That doesn't make any sense especially when there's no objective standard that drives us to do so. And why does being able to go against our nature make us special? For one we don't know that we're the only species able to do it on this planet, it's impossible to test on other animals. But even so, how would a single arbitrary feature like that objectively place us above any other life form?

2. How can people truly obtain joy from giving if it goes against our nature? If self interest is truly embedded in our nature then we will constantly be struggling no matter how long we spend trying to enjoy helping others. Also in response to your last statement "if it makes people feel good, it's probably good" - why does this not apply to being selfish? Why is it not considered good to do things for our own sake?

3. Furthermore, you say we have "created morality" and that it is subjective. Then surely you would admit that everything you're saying now concerning your own standard of "good" is merely subjective and therefore meaningless because for your cause to be truly good we'd all have to be the same and share the same subjective standard so that it wouldn't be "bad" to anyone.

And I apologize for playing devils advocate, but you seem like a nice guy that genuinely wants to do good so I felt I had to try to make you realize that for good to exist an objective standard must exist; and an objective standard starts with the belief that morality is not subjective - and from there you're free to find your own path. If you don't want to believe that then fine, but I hope at least you understand the logic in what I'm saying.
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Posted 6/10/15

Tethealla wrote:


silversongwriter wrote:You know what... Yes. It's good to go against ones nature. We humans have created morality (which is subjective, but it's still exist within peoples minds), culture, values, traditions, societies religion, technology, and all sorts of things that affect our view point. Why not use such things to better us as a people?
Why would we not use the one thing that makes us special above all other life forms on earth. I think a culture of generosity would be nice. A culture where giving to others is part of ones basic values would create peace and harmony. If people obtained joy from giving, then it would make everyone feel good. both the giver and recipient.
If it makes people feel good, it's probably good.


So I've got a few points to make here:

1. Why is it good to go against our nature? That doesn't make any sense especially when there's no objective standard that drives us to do so. And why does being able to go against our nature make us special? For one we don't know that we're the only species able to do it on this planet, it's impossible to test on other animals. But even so, how would a single arbitrary feature like that objectively place us above any other life form?

2. How can people truly obtain joy from giving if it goes against our nature? If self interest is truly embedded in our nature then we will constantly be struggling no matter how long we spend trying to enjoy helping others. Also in response to your last statement "if it makes people feel good, it's probably good" - why does this not apply to being selfish? Why is it not considered good to do things for our own sake?

3. Furthermore, you say we have "created morality" and that it is subjective. Then surely you would admit that everything you're saying now concerning your own standard of "good" is merely subjective and therefore meaningless because for your cause to be truly good we'd all have to be the same and share the same subjective standard so that it wouldn't be "bad" to anyone.

And I apologize for playing devils advocate, but you seem like a nice guy that genuinely wants to do good so I felt I had to try to make you realize that for good to exist an objective standard must exist; and an objective standard starts with the belief that morality is not subjective - and from there you're free to find your own path. If you don't want to believe that then fine, but I hope at least you understand the logic in what I'm saying.


1. Going against our nature can bring about all sorts of great improvements. For one, there's greater satisfaction than just following human nature. Some people seek to improve themselves or create their own sense of morality and identity. Why would humanity have such an amazing ability if we're not supposed to do it?

2. Well, if you've been raised and have been conditioned to see generosity as a virtue. Then engaging in it will give you pride and happiness. Plus, it's just human empathy to feel better when you see others feel better. However, I believe environment and background play a bigger role in that. If generosity is a virtue in ones heart... you don't need to tell them to give, they'd give of thier own heart and of thier own will

3. We can... but a lot of things are collective. Even though some people differ... 90% of the world agrees stealing is wrong, killing is wrong unless it's nessasary, lying is wrong unless it's nessasary, and that suffering is bad... poeple are free to disagree with that, however, that's a small number of people who support such things. Morality is subjective, but it's also collective. And peoples morals are undoubtably influenced by society.

I believe a society that stresses generosity will end up creating a collective idea that "generosity is morally correct".
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