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Is anime really that sexist?
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Posted 7/4/15 , edited 7/7/15

biscuitnote wrote:
why does everything have to be so sanitized


This is unfortunately the world we live in. People are so afraid to offend. Those offended make such a stink, and can ruin your entire reputation by telling the world that you are the worst thing you can be called in today's age: a bigot.

The higher you are, the farther you will fall.


"Our boss is such a chauvinist pig! He refuses to give me a raise or promotion."
"Yeah, but don't you screw up payroll like EVERY week?"
"That's because he's such a sexist, he's always breathing down my neck. He is really just mad because I won't sleep with him."
"Isn't he gay?"
"So what?!? That gives him the right to hate women?"


Not to say that bigots don't exist, because they do. I know a few on EVERY side of the fence. It just seems like that's everyone's favorite trump card and excuse, these days.

It's like the entire world (or at least US) was like: "Man, you know that 'race card" thing black folks have? That shit is awesome, I need to get me one." So there you go, black folks, one more thing the white people stole from you.

My point being, this has made the world into a place where we're all afraid to offend anyone, because we don't want to be the bad guy. So... the world is shifting into this shit-hole of kid-gloves, political correctness, and sanitation.... rather than somewhere we can relax and be who we are, even if that person is a chauvinist pig, racist ass-hole, homophobe.

Am I saying that being oneself is always being a good person? Hell no. But, the way I see it, you're not going to make someone change the way they think by making them feel like a horrible person for it. That's only going to force them to take a very radical defensive stance. The only way people will change is by being both exposed to differences/change and not having it forced down their throats or thrown in their face every second of every day, even if it is a better way of life. I could go into explaining this more, but.... I'm tired of typing.


EDIT: Another note -

Some people like to double-up. I'm relatively sure that playing the "black, female, homosexual" card is like playing Exodius in Yu-Gi-Oh.
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Posted 7/4/15

anzn wrote:

Not to mention female characters are always brought down to some sorta support for the protagonist. Healer, Nurse, the girl who's waiting for him to come home, or advice to give to the girl he said he likes (and most likely likes him too).
And these girls feel like they can't do anything or live without this guy too.
I'm so tired of seeing that.

A guy can't be that special smh


I, as a main character, am contractually obligated to disagree

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Posted 7/4/15 , edited 7/4/15

anzn wrote:
Its more than that. Sexism is more than just seeing women as nothing more than a sexual object. Which guys like you don't seem to get.
Sexism is telling us men will always be more stronger than women, that women can't do anything without men, that a mans opinion on a women defines her worth, that women couldnt have possibly do/be like how they are without the help of a man, that women are powerless, that women always need to be saved (by a man), that women can't fight, etc etc.
Anything that indicates we are inferior to men in almost every way is sexist.


There are tons of problems with all of that though.

First of all, diagnosing sexism in a fictional setting is extremely difficult for a heap of reasons (ex. no character type is off limits and depictions of sexism are not necessarily sexism).
Second of all, simply depicting a woman as weak is not sexist.
Third, your list of things that are sexist fall into the problems that I discussed above as well as being an over generalization and I respond to it with my earlier statement "what anime have you been watching?".
The vast majority of anime that I have seen have not even implied that women cannot be strong or that women cannot do anything without men. From my experience, this is not a widespread problem that can be discussed in the context of "is anime sexist", but in a more specific setting such as "is this particular plot point in this particular show sexist". Just looking over some of the shows I have listed that I have seen, you have characters like The Major (GitS), Shiki (Kara no Kyoukai), Chihaya (Chihayafuru), Misaki Nakahara (Welcome to the NHK), Kafuka Fuura (Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei), Re-I (Ergo Proxy), Kaori (Your Lie In April), Ryuko Matoi (KLK), Victorique (Gosick) etc who often display strength (be it physical or mental) surpassing that of the male leads...
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Posted 7/4/15 , edited 7/4/15
Feminist must hate Asuna.



Asuna has more of a personality than Kirito.

It's not sexist if they want to partake in their gender role. I think everyone should be free to choose whatever they want. And artist should be free to perceive their characters that way if they want.
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Posted 7/4/15 , edited 7/6/15
Yep. There are two levels to this.

1. There is not a balance between Fanservice shows for men and fanservice shows for women. Free! is a good start but im all for more.

2. Alot of fanservice is very... how do I put this "rapey". You got alot of scenarios where girls are molested even by the heroes and its treated as nothing more than a joke or even worse romantic (all the kissing without permission shit included). My favorite anime ever Trigun suffers from this when Vash gropes the women and its treated as a joke. Not alot of it is handled very well. Monogatari does this too. Evangelion features Kaji kissing Misato without permission and saying "Your mouth said no but your lips said yes" basically "she was asking for it" (which is a shame cause in all other aspects I think Eva is a very smart and makes good statements against the sexism prevalant in Otaku and anime culture)And once again all these shows are amazing I just have a problem with certain aspects of them.

Thats just fanservice though. There is a huge HUGE lack of strong female characters in anime and that needs to change too. I mean I think about the shows I saw last season and I can think off only one. Yona who is Kinda-ish a strong female character.

On the other hand alot Josei manga written by women for women handle the subject very well.

Manga has an incredibly broad audience with different genres aiming at different genders. Anime panders to one demographic with some noticeable exceptions which is Shonen and Seinen. We need more shoujo and josie stuff adapted into anime.

But onto the positives. There are women run studios and teams. Kyo-ani and Clamp to name a few. Thats something that you cant really say about games.

Also you do have awesome shows like Magic Knight Rayearth and many Ghibli films out there with great and strong female characters.
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Posted 7/4/15

pandrasb wrote:

Feminist must hate Asuna.



Asuna has more of a personality than Kirito.

It's not sexist if they want to partake in their gender role. I think everyone should be free to choose whatever they want. And artist should be free to perceive their characters that way if they want.


I do hate Asuna but my belief in feminism has little to do with it.
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Posted 7/4/15

megahobbit wrote:


pandrasb wrote:

Feminist must hate Asuna.



Asuna has more of a personality than Kirito.

It's not sexist if they want to partake in their gender role. I think everyone should be free to choose whatever they want. And artist should be free to perceive their characters that way if they want.


I do hate Asuna but my belief in feminism has little to do with it.


okay, that's nice
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Posted 7/4/15 , edited 7/4/15
Just my thoughts on the topic
No

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Posted 7/4/15

pandrasb wrote:


megahobbit wrote:


pandrasb wrote:

Feminist must hate Asuna.



Asuna has more of a personality than Kirito.

It's not sexist if they want to partake in their gender role. I think everyone should be free to choose whatever they want. And artist should be free to perceive their characters that way if they want.


I do hate Asuna but my belief in feminism has little to do with it.


okay, that's nice


Though even from a feminist perspective ill cut the author some slack cause he was 15. I probably would have written Asuna like she is when I was 15.
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Posted 7/4/15

megahobbit wrote:

Yep. There are two levels to this.

1. There is not a balance between Fanservice shows for men and fanservice shows for women. Free! is a good start but im all for more.

2. Alot of fanservice is very... how do I put this "rapey". You got alot of scenarios where girls are molested even by the heroes and its treated as nothing more than a joke or even worse romantic (all the kissing without permission shit included). My favorite anime ever Trigun suffers from this when Vash gropes the women and its treated as a joke. Not alot of it is handled very well. Monogatari does this too. And once again both shows are amazing I just have a problem with certian aspects of them.

On the other hand alot Josei manga written by women for women handle the subject very well.

Manga has an incredibly broad audience with different genres aiming at different genders. Anime panders to one demographic with some noticeable exceptions which is Shonen and Seinen. We need more shoujo and josie stuff adapted into anime.


1 is not sexism, it is having a target audience.

2 is arguable as to whether or not is is sexism for a number of reasons. For example, as I've previously stated, depictions of sexism are not necessarily sexism. For example, a show taking place in the 1800s depicting mistreatment of african americans would not be called racist despite it containing depictions of racism. Araragi and Vash are supposed to be perverts. That does not make the show sexist.

Additionally, what you are describing (although lacking in context), does not fit any definitions of sexism I can find (although I have problems with calling fiction "sexist" for a whole host of reasons including the reason listed above). It seems that the definition of sexism may need to be stretched a bit to call what you are describing sexism, but I would like you to outline your definition and describe how what you are talking about is sexism keeping in mind what I stated above.
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Posted 7/4/15

pandrasb wrote:

Feminist must hate Asuna.



Asuna has more of a personality than Kirito.

It's not sexist if they want to partake in their gender role. I think everyone should be free to choose whatever they want. And artist should be free to perceive their characters that way if they want.



Asuna was a great character....until the second story arc of course...
Posted 7/4/15

sundin13 wrote:


anzn wrote:
Its more than that. Sexism is more than just seeing women as nothing more than a sexual object. Which guys like you don't seem to get.
Sexism is telling us men will always be more stronger than women, that women can't do anything without men, that a mans opinion on a women defines her worth, that women couldnt have possibly do/be like how they are without the help of a man, that women are powerless, that women always need to be saved (by a man), that women can't fight, etc etc.
Anything that indicates we are inferior to men in almost every way is sexist.


There are tons of problems with all of that though.

First of all, diagnosing sexism in a fictional setting is extremely difficult for a heap of reasons (ex. no character type is off limits and depictions of sexism are not necessarily sexism).
Second of all, simply depicting a woman as weak is not sexist.
Third, your list of things that are sexist fall into the problems that I discussed above as well as being an over generalization and I respond to it with my earlier statement "what anime have you been watching?".
The vast majority of anime that I have seen have not even implied that women cannot be strong or that women cannot do anything without men. From my experience, this is not a widespread problem that can be discussed in the context of "is anime sexist", but in a more specific setting such as "is this particular plot point in this particular show sexist". Just looking over some of the shows I have listed that I have seen, you have characters like The Major (GitS), Shiki (Kara no Kyoukai), Chihaya (Chihayafuru), Misaki Nakahara (Welcome to the NHK), Kafuka Fuura (Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei), Re-I (Ergo Proxy), Kaori (Your Lie In April), Ryuko Matoi (KLK), Victorique (Gosick) etc who often display strength (be it physical or mental) surpassing that of the male leads...

It has barely anything to do with the anime they're watching because like I said before, the anime yhat do are minuscule compared to the other thousands.
And a lot of mainstream anime seem to have it as well so
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Posted 7/4/15
I think a lot of people don't understand what sexism means. Sexism is prejudice, stereotyping or discrimination based on sex.


I mean, "This person with ovaries has mammaries!11111 sexism11111" is technically true but kind of missing the point.
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Posted 7/4/15
some animes are sexist when it comes to women characters who are supposedly useless except for looking sexy...those type of animes I don't watch though because they prob lack story lol
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Posted 7/4/15 , edited 7/6/15

sundin13 wrote:


megahobbit wrote:

Yep. There are two levels to this.

1. There is not a balance between Fanservice shows for men and fanservice shows for women. Free! is a good start but im all for more.

2. Alot of fanservice is very... how do I put this "rapey". You got alot of scenarios where girls are molested even by the heroes and its treated as nothing more than a joke or even worse romantic (all the kissing without permission shit included). My favorite anime ever Trigun suffers from this when Vash gropes the women and its treated as a joke. Not alot of it is handled very well. Monogatari does this too. And once again both shows are amazing I just have a problem with certian aspects of them.

On the other hand alot Josei manga written by women for women handle the subject very well.

Manga has an incredibly broad audience with different genres aiming at different genders. Anime panders to one demographic with some noticeable exceptions which is Shonen and Seinen. We need more shoujo and josie stuff adapted into anime.


1 is not sexism, it is having a target audience.

2 is arguable as to whether or not is is sexism for a number of reasons. For example, as I've previously stated, depictions of sexism are not necessarily sexism. For example, a show taking place in the 1800s depicting mistreatment of african americans would not be called racist despite it containing depictions of racism. Araragi and Vash are supposed to be perverts. That does not make the show sexist.

Additionally, what you are describing (although lacking in context), does not fit any definitions of sexism I can find (although I have problems with calling fiction "sexist" for a whole host of reasons including the reason listed above). It seems that the definition of sexism may need to be stretched a bit to call what you are describing sexism, but I would like you to outline your definition and describe how what you are talking about is sexism keeping in mind what I stated above.


1. Uhh yes it is having a prevalance of these shows without a balance reinforces one view of women onto the cultural mindset. If the only way women are portrayed is as 10/10 hot gawking material to be objectified it is sexist. If we had a wide range of female characters an the majority wasnt 10/10 hot gawking material it wouldnt be sexist. Not that 10/10 hot gawking material is bad but when thats all you have its just stupid.

Expanding the target audience of anime is nothing but a good thing in my opinion.

2. There are other ways to show that character trait besides feeling up young children. But I was also referring to the moment were the one boring girl gets the snake in her mouth thing.

This is gonna sound cringeworthy but Vash and his worldview did have a profound affect on my life. Vash is supposed to be a noble hero. Vash does the right thing and even in his goofiest moments shows respect for people. You can show he is a pervert in other ways besides molesting women. The first nine episodes already did that.

But to your definition of sexism. See thats hard to say cause nothing is really objectively sexist in media. Its all up to argument and interpretation. Feminist critique of a work is separate to me from enjoyment for me. There really is not a checklist merit system were something is objectively sexist or not. Thats kinda how analysis works. I view what the anime shows me and I see it through a lense of my personal worldview.

Certain things certainly have reached a consensus among feminists as sexist though. Over objectification of women, portrayal of rape(how its portrayed not that its portrayed), themes of the work, etc. And I certianly agree with those.

But sexist at least how it applies to this situation(words are fluid) is something that reinforces outdated and harmful cultural notions about about women. This relates to the bigger definition of sexism a system that oppresses a gender(that gender is women in case your wondering). Sexism like Racism and Classism is a system that oppresses an oppressed demographic of people. IE a women cant be sexist cause there isnt a system of oppression backing it(they can be prejudiced which is still bad, but there still aint a system of oppression keeping the man down), same thing with racism (a minority cant really be racist cause there isnt a system of oppression backing it)

It should be noted that im not gonna be debating the last two paragraphs with anyone. Im probably not gonna change your mind your probably not gonna change mine.

Feminsit critque is important but on a level is separate from enjoyment of the work. Im currently wearing a tshirt of a band that has a rather horrific and disgusting song about kidnapping a women and doing etc. to her. I like the song dare I say its one of my favorite. But lyrically its disgustingly sexist(not that you would now by listening to it since the lead singer is nearly indecipherable with his yells). Similarly another one of my favorite albums the Chronic by Dr. Dre is incredibly incredibly sexist and homophobic. I still love the album and it has some amazing lines but I recognize how misogynistic and vile it is.

Lindsey Ellis the former Nostalgia Chick wrote a great article on this subject.
http://www.themarysue.com/stop-asking-is-this-feminist/
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