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Post Reply please please please keep LN/manga talk out of anime forums
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Posted 7/12/15

Balzack wrote:


LoomyTheBrew wrote:

Mods probably need to enforce it better, lorreen can only do so much by herself. Though, probably mods are busy with real life stuff and can't always moderate and that's understandable, but if that's the case they shouldn't have taken up the modding position in the first place.

Extremely off topic, but I can't help but agree with this. Baker should really clean house a little, there are some people who have been modding here for forever and a day and seem to only stick around for the club mentality and the free membership.

------

I think at the end of the day people just need to learn to get over stuff a little better. The fact that special spoiler tags even needs to be suggested just shows how everyone is almost searching for something to complain about. Like I said in an earlier post, I have been on the receiving end of people getting *EXTREMELY* angry with me for posting a spoiler with a spoiler tag that wasn't "properly marked."

If something says it's a spoiler, people need to just treat it like a spoiler. If they don't want to be spoiled, but have an involuntary need to have to click on it, then they just need to learn to stop doing that. Because it's dumb.


No. People need to learn to go outside of their own heads and consider how their participation in a thread effects others. This is a community, and the behavior we're talking about kills participation in the community.

The general response to excessive LN spoiler talk is to just not particpate in the discussion. Everyone loses, the community loses.



That's the baseline. It murders all non-LN related discussion in the thread and in essence murders all discussion by the majority of people who could potentially contribute.
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Posted 7/13/15 , edited 7/13/15
In a roundabout way there are many spoilers even before the anime comes out ! CR News Anime News News Network !

Even some show websites / TV puts up next episode previews !

How we would know what even to watch ?? Myself I enjoy the anime more when I know what is going on I dont sit there and go huh ?

And what say you about next episode previews at the end of an anime. That doesnt bother me !

Then this is extreme maybe the episode shouldnt air because it contains spoilers

So then Scott Green and Joseph Luster should be reported to mods because I thave been major spoiled !

Just kidding keep up the good work CR news spoil me anytime I enjoy and made good decisions about anime oe even enhance it!


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Posted 7/13/15 , edited 7/13/15

ImperialDane wrote:
Though it would require more moderator effort to police.


AnimeKami wrote:
You are suggesting that 30 moderators are not enough?


I've added some info to the top post in this thread.

Please note that of those 30 moderators, less than half are on the team that handles the English language site. We are all part-time volunteers, and our responsibilities extend beyond the forums into other areas of the site. It is true that some mods are more active than others, but just because you don't see a mod in action in the forums does not mean they are not making valuable contributions elsewhere.

We do rely on the other users in the community to alert us to problems so that we can enforce the rules and guidelines. Please use the "Report to Moderator" link to report problems with users derailing and spoiling threads with LN/manga discussion. As mentioned, there are few mods (all of us are part-time volunteers) and lots of threads. We aren't able to closely monitor every single one of them, so we do often rely on other users to bring things like this to our attention.



imaginarycreatures wrote:
I can tell you from experience that we have created threads for VN adaptations into anime on more than one occasion without having the threads locked. I would imagine that if you were to start a thread in the anime sub-forum entitled "Differences between GATE anime and light novels (spoiler warning)", it would probably be okay, especially if there's a legitimate problem with the spoilers in the parent thread. It's a bubble case, but as long as the main subject is the adaptation itself, and not the source material, it hasn't historically been an issue.


Yes. This is probably not necessary for most shows, but in cases where there is a strong interest in comparing adaptations, if a thread is clearly titled to indicate it's specifically for that purpose, and the OP indicates that as well, it would likely not be considered a duplicate.

I know there was a time in the past where very broad rules were being used regarding what was and wasn't a duplicate. We've tried to lighten up on that over the last year (or more).


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Posted 7/13/15
To round out, I guess Ioreen said it.

I don't like feeling like a snitch more than anyone else, but she's right. The only solution is for us to aggressively report (actual) problem posts and see what happens.
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Posted 7/13/15

rcsatcrunchyroll wrote:


windsagio wrote:
There's manga and books forums, please, I'm begging you, use them instead!


Seconding this sentiment. It seems to be becoming more of a problem.



Agreed.


I like others also rarely use show discussion threads anymore due to this.


Kinda makes sense why so many discussion threads have less pages accumulated over the entire season the series airs than Best Girl thread goes through in a single day.
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Posted 7/13/15 , edited 7/13/15

Balzack wrote:

I think at the end of the day people just need to learn to get over stuff a little better. The fact that special spoiler tags even needs to be suggested just shows how everyone is almost searching for something to complain about. Like I said in an earlier post, I have been on the receiving end of people getting *EXTREMELY* angry with me for posting a spoiler with a spoiler tag that wasn't "properly marked."

If something says it's a spoiler, people need to just treat it like a spoiler. If they don't want to be spoiled, but have an involuntary need to have to click on it, then they just need to learn to stop doing that. Because it's dumb.




Wait, really?! I had assumed people where complaining because of those who weren't using spoiler tags but they're complaining about things that are properly marked as well. That's stupid. I've been spoiled a few times by opening up spoiler tags in the forums and regretted doing so on some occasions. However, I know that it was my own lack of willpower at fault and no ones to blame for that but me. Some people really need to take responsibility for their actions instead of trying to blame others for their own faults.
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Posted 7/13/15 , edited 7/13/15
spoiler tags are sort of a death sentence, you just want to click on it. its freaking bright red.

the main issue is definately people getting over excited and forgetting that their common sense is not everyone elses.

there are definately people who are mad at it in general, even when marked in bright red. but i feel half the time those people are people who were behind and decided to read the forum and spoiled themselves.

sorta wanna make a thread of spoilers but to lazy to do so.
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Posted 7/13/15
Just keep spoilers in their tags.

If they're tagged and you don't have the self-control not to click on it, you have no right to complain.
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Posted 7/13/15

EJHicks wrote:


Balzack wrote:

I think at the end of the day people just need to learn to get over stuff a little better. The fact that special spoiler tags even needs to be suggested just shows how everyone is almost searching for something to complain about. Like I said in an earlier post, I have been on the receiving end of people getting *EXTREMELY* angry with me for posting a spoiler with a spoiler tag that wasn't "properly marked."

If something says it's a spoiler, people need to just treat it like a spoiler. If they don't want to be spoiled, but have an involuntary need to have to click on it, then they just need to learn to stop doing that. Because it's dumb.




Wait, really?! I had assumed people where complaining because of those who weren't using spoiler tags but they're complaining about things that are properly marked as well. That's stupid. I've been spoiled a few times by opening up spoiler tags in the forums and regretted doing so on some occasions. However, I know that it was my own lack of willpower at fault and no ones to blame for that but me. Some people really need to take responsibility for their actions instead of trying to blame others for their own faults.


Well, I should probably stop, Ioreen's post pretty much resolved the thread. Still, there are 2 issues at hand;

1) The entire thread being taken over by LN/VN/Manga spoilers (as in the fate example)
2) People not spoiler-tagging small things that they don't think of significant or just don't think to put behind a tag.

there's a lesser issue of people not knowing who a spoiler tag is directed at (and this is an issue that IS covered in the rules as it turns out), but there's a fair amount of 'buyer beware!' in that case. You didn't have to click.

Both 1 and 2 are legitimate issues and are in violation of the forum rules. We just have to treat it so that people who are bugged by that violation actually report it. -- which has the unfortunate effect of putting way more work on the volunteer mods.
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Posted 7/13/15

windsagio wrote:


EJHicks wrote:


Balzack wrote:

I think at the end of the day people just need to learn to get over stuff a little better. The fact that special spoiler tags even needs to be suggested just shows how everyone is almost searching for something to complain about. Like I said in an earlier post, I have been on the receiving end of people getting *EXTREMELY* angry with me for posting a spoiler with a spoiler tag that wasn't "properly marked."

If something says it's a spoiler, people need to just treat it like a spoiler. If they don't want to be spoiled, but have an involuntary need to have to click on it, then they just need to learn to stop doing that. Because it's dumb.


Wait, really?! I had assumed people where complaining because of those who weren't using spoiler tags but they're complaining about things that are properly marked as well. That's stupid. I've been spoiled a few times by opening up spoiler tags in the forums and regretted doing so on some occasions. However, I know that it was my own lack of willpower at fault and no ones to blame for that but me. Some people really need to take responsibility for their actions instead of trying to blame others for their own faults.


Well, I should probably stop, Ioreen's post pretty much resolved the thread. Still, there are 2 issues at hand;

1) The entire thread being taken over by LN/VN/Manga spoilers (as in the fate example)
2) People not spoiler-tagging small things that they don't think of significant or just don't think to put behind a tag.

there's a lesser issue of people not knowing who a spoiler tag is directed at (and this is an issue that IS covered in the rules as it turns out), but there's a fair amount of 'buyer beware!' in that case. You didn't have to click.

Both 1 and 2 are legitimate issues and are in violation of the forum rules. We just have to treat it so that people who are bugged by that violation actually report it. -- which has the unfortunate effect of putting way more work on the volunteer mods.


If they're just talking about the LN/manga then, yeah, those conversations should indeed be in the LN/manga forum. An anime forum should still mainly discuss the anime after all.
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Posted 7/13/15 , edited 7/13/15

windsagio wrote:
Both 1 and 2 are legitimate issues and are in violation of the forum rules. We just have to treat it so that people who are bugged by that violation actually report it. -- which has the unfortunate effect of putting way more work on the volunteer mods.


One thing that happens when people don't report to moderators is that many users start thinking that even if something is technically against the rules (if they have even ever read the rules) it's really okay, and that the culture allows it.

If you report problems and mods start taking action (typically by adding spoilers, deleting posts, and warning transgressors; banning for chronic repetition or clear malicious intent) then more folks understand that the community norm is to not use Anime discussion threads for extended discussion involving the LN/manga, and that the expected thing is to use spoilers for the occasional, relevant mention of LN/manga information or significant events that some discussion participants might not have had a chance to see yet. (When people are focused mostly on the anime that latter is less of an issue since most users who care about getting spoiled will avoid the discussion thread until they've watched the latest episode).

Also, the more people start labeling their spoilers or providing some context about them in their posts, the more people actually start seeing that as appropriate etiquette and start doing it themselves.

So, initially it can be more work, but it then leads to more people having a shared understanding about what's appropriate and more people cooperating so the mods get called in less.

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Posted 7/13/15 , edited 7/13/15

lorreen wrote: I've added some info to the top post in this thread.
Thx. This kind of info that u added (especially about pretexting spoilers), I think, should be added to the opening post of any series thread that will undoubtedly be popular.


windsagio wrote: This is a community, and the behavior we're talking about kills participation in the community.
I don't really participate in anime discussion threads anymore, but in the past when I still did, this is exactly what killed my participation, at least in the series that I knew were too popular that I would end up reading spoilers that weren't hidden under a spoiler or non-pretexted spoilers that had manga spoilers in it.
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Posted 7/14/15

maxgale wrote:


rcsatcrunchyroll wrote:


windsagio wrote:
There's manga and books forums, please, I'm begging you, use them instead!


Seconding this sentiment. It seems to be becoming more of a problem.



Agreed.


I like others also rarely use show discussion threads anymore due to this.


Kinda makes sense why so many discussion threads have less pages accumulated over the entire season the series airs than Best Girl thread goes through in a single day.



maxgale wrote:


rcsatcrunchyroll wrote:


windsagio wrote:
There's manga and books forums, please, I'm begging you, use them instead!


Seconding this sentiment. It seems to be becoming more of a problem.



Agreed.


I like others also rarely use show discussion threads anymore due to this.


Kinda makes sense why so many discussion threads have less pages accumulated over the entire season the series airs than Best Girl thread goes through in a single day.


Please dont take Offense at the lack of posters in Forums and this more of a problem than Spoilers any day!

I just went to 4 different shows and that I regard highly and people are dropping 3 of the shows because THEY DONT LIKE THEM and then other people read that and join the sheep! And this after EP 2 !

BTW I post a lot and in Spring I watched 42 shows and summer 48 so far! And I dont see that it is that big of a problem!

A second point the forums used to be great but now it is lewd and dont make a counterpoint ! I was polite and cursed at and reported it to the mods but the person and comment was never censored ! I think that is a bigger offense than spoilers so my bitterness toward the spoilers which arent used is a minor offence than getting cursed at !

Again just tonite posters are dropping shows / which then means the forum!

Third people dont have time to post! Say you watch 8- 10 shows FRI / SAT can you comment on that many ??

Again I think some valid points!

BTW I stopped voting / viewing after the Best Girl Thread turned into a such a stupid chat !

The forum posters that are regulars actually write quite well sometimess less is better !

Again nothing personal
just pointing one trend I saw tonite!
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Posted 7/14/15 , edited 7/14/15
The problem is that you can't forbid every single original material talk in it, and just a part, so there's a need for a proper set of rules here imo. And this is the case for any anime forum about a manga/ln adaptation.

There's a need ImO to make a difference between spoilers talking about what will come next (suggesting or saying it completely, although the former is sometimes a bit difficult to judge or to avoid on the other side as the conversation goes on, so well, it requires a lot of caution fro the side that knows what will happen, that's definitely not easy to never do a mistake in that) and what was skipped

For example in my case, while I most of the case have read the original before seeing the adaptation, I don't talk about "what has yet to happen" in an anime thread. That type of spoiler is bad, bad bad, and has nothing to do in an anime thread. I agree on this one that there is a LN/manga threads for this. But there are the second type "what should have been covered/shown but was left out in the adaptation".
That one is more tricky. I'm not talking about stupidly listing everything the shows left out just to complain. I'm talking about explaining to others what they did not understand (because it isn't as clear in the anime version with cut content).
Recently, a good example of this would be danmachi. Extremely rushed, most of the explanations were left out. I've participated a lot in the anime threads and a LOT (when I say a lot, it's really a LOT there) of users were either complaining that they were not understanding why X happened, or complaining about plot hole, deus ex machina, or illogical character behaviour. Some were even asking "why" rather than complaining, thinking that they may have missed something.

It's very often in adaptation to find that kind of situation. Exception like the currently airing Rokka no Yuusha where almost every explanation is adapted properly are.... well, a very rare exception to the general rules followed by recent anime adaptations.

So, as a reader of the original material, you CAN answer to them. But you CAN'T do it in the LN/Manga thread because if you invite them there they'll be spoiled about everything rather than just getting the answer about their question (which isn't a spoiler in the same way but rather missing LN/manga content).

So if we exclude pm ing every single person in the thread to answer the same thing since those same questions are usually posted by several persons ina row, the only place you can do it IS the anime thread. Either that, or you leave those peoples frustrated about illogical plot elements and things they didn't understand and so on, whereas they could actually enjoy it back after a short explanation.
On other forums, I've been thanked a lot for doing that kind of spoilers. Now, depending of the forum, peoples prefer that "non adapted past LN/manga content" are put under properly tagged spoiler tag. Why not. For example, I'm new here, and when I mentioned in one of my post a minor detail of world building that the anime missed in order to answer someone's question, someone afterwards requested that I spoiler tag that kind of thing. I don't see a problem here, and will spoiler tag them from now on (remember, I'm not talking about stuff that has yet to happen, but stuff /explanations needed but missed by the adaptation, and that will NOT be covered in coming episodes).
BUT. If you request that kind of spoilers to not be written at all in the anime discussion, how do I answer that question?

It was a minor point that time, but to take back the danmachi example, over the episodes I made tons of posts on other forums to give the needed explanations to others.

As long as the adaptation will rush like that, you can't really refuse spoilers of the original content to be put in the thread. That's not realistic and I can't think that it's for the good of the anime watcher either, seeing the number of thanks I usually get. Again, for the "content that has yet to come" it's a completely different mater. It shouldn't be there even under properly tagged spoiler. You never know if someone excited by what you just wrote isn't going to quote that part of your message without the spoiler tag or something like that afterwards to ask you more about it, and it's too late when it happens.
But then again, as I said, when you get caught in a conversation with others asking you about materials that have been left out and explanations, there are case where it's actually easy to make a mistake if you aren't careful enough. I saw peoples doing this inadvertently. Like, they were using spoiler tags just fine, but in their enthusiast they missed one critical one. In those case, it's not like he voluntarily did it, or that he/she has no respect for others. So strong enforcing by banning can be a bit harsh. But then if you don't enforce, it's going to turn bad before long as well. Sometimes it really feels like a tight rope to walk in as a source material reader. Like, you need to seriously think about how you're going to write those sentence to avoid being specific in something they shouldn't know about, and without having the other side noticing that you're purposely avoiding a specific point he's interested into. This is easier said than done sometimes. Not answering at all could be an idea, but that's not caring about other just as well. They're wondering about stuff, complaining that X and Y isn't enjoyable because it doesn't make sense and so on, and you can provide the necessary infos for that. And especially if you liked the original material, letting peoples trash the story because of lack of info can be difficult to bear sometimes to


Bottom line is, it's difficult, and part of that difficulty is the use of anime as an advertisement for the original material rather than as a full fledged media to convey a story more and more by some studio/publishers. They're aggravating the situation because there are more and more anime that actually REQUIRE explanations (and sometimes many pages of them, like Koukaisenjou no Horizon) to be understood properly. This is very saddening situation to me. Trust me, I'm far more happy to have to say in an anime thread "wow everything that needed to be explained was" that to answer all those questions due to missing important content.
As such, I don't think it's going to get better any time soon, and it requires therefore a lot of discipline from the side that CAN answer to avoid letting slip things that they shouldn't be saying. It can be done, definitely, yes, but not everyone will take care enough to do it properly. I mean when you discuss in a thread, do you actually take the time of having that kind of cautious thinking when you post? Well, I need to. That completely changes the way to post in a thread. I don't complain about it, but I understand that some other are too bothered to do everything properly, leading to mistakes sooner or later.


BTW, I noticed this but, the spoiler tag in this forum seems a bit flawed. I mean, it doesn't have the possibility to add what is the spoiler about directly in the tag like bbcode usually do you know, the [ spoiler="missed Ln content" ] kind of stuff rather than just using [ spoiler ]. It forces to add on top of it the reason rather than in the code, which isn't as practical imo.
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Posted 7/14/15
I'm cool with people talking about it for the most part except for a few caveats.

Don't spoil things or talk about upcoming things for those who don't read the manga/ln/vn/etc.

Don't say that something sucks because it didn't happen JUST like in the book. There are other reasons an anime might suck, but I seriously argue against a good reasoning being "because it didn't happen like that in the book." Look at a show like The Walking Dead. NOTHING like the comics. I mean NOTHING. And still a great show. Or look at shows like Arrow and Flash, etc.

I can understand not liking a change, or agreeing with it, but those are not reasons a show is good or bad. Just different.

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