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Free Trade Agreement (TPP) Threatens Manga, Anime Artists
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Posted 7/28/15 , edited 7/28/15

BlueOni wrote:

I've addressed the topic of intellectual property multiple times throughout the time I've spent writing responses and threads on these forums. I pointed out that anime has, in light of new technology, taken on a wholly distinct character from its previous one, and that as a good for which it is no longer possible to sustain a state of artificial scarcity distribution models will require a complete overhaul so as to no longer be reliant upon a "fee for access" basis (assuming, of course, that the industry's enormous figures about the impact of piracy aren't exaggerated and that it genuinely is necessary to draw people away from piracy). I've pointed out that the entertainment industry has engaged in illegal behaviour by installing malware on peoples' computers in order to interfere with legitimate software's functions and tracking their listening habits as part of a "digital rights management" scheme. I've pointed out that internet service providers in the US have, at the insistence of the MPAA and RIAA, incorporated as part of their terms of service an arbitration scheme for handling even baseless, frivolously made accusations of copyright infringement which defies even the most fundamental institution of an ethical justice system: presumption of innocence until guilt is proven to within a minimum standard (incidentally, you also have to pay a fee to be granted the opportunity to defend yourself to avoid frivolity, but they can accuse you willy nilly). I've pointed out that copyright terms have exceeded a length which serves the general public interest. I've pointed out that the DMCA is abused by rights holders through their use of bot programs designed to file blanket copyright complaints against anything with their content in it without regard to fair use provisions.

Edit: I've more or less already said what I have to say on this topic over the course of the last several months.


Personally the age of copyright especially when it comes to music is long since gone. All the TPP can do is try hinder it for a bit but piracy will always find a way. If you think about it the age of profiting off of recorded music was pretty damn short in the grand scheme of things.

The thing im more concerned about than the copyright stuff is how harsh fines will be placed on people who share company secrets which would discourage Whistleblowers from speaking out about fucked up shit happening in companies.
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Posted 7/28/15

megahobbit wrote:

Personally the age of copyright especially when it comes to music is long since gone. All the TPP can do is try hinder it for a bit but piracy will always find a way. If you think about it the age of profiting off of recorded music was pretty damn short in the grand scheme of things.

The thing im more concerned about than the copyright stuff is how harsh fines will be placed on people who share company secrets which would discourage Whistleblowers from speaking out about fucked up shit happening in companies.


Would that be handled by the tribunals, or by national court systems relevant to the incident?
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Posted 7/28/15

BlueOni wrote:


megahobbit wrote:

Personally the age of copyright especially when it comes to music is long since gone. All the TPP can do is try hinder it for a bit but piracy will always find a way. If you think about it the age of profiting off of recorded music was pretty damn short in the grand scheme of things.

The thing im more concerned about than the copyright stuff is how harsh fines will be placed on people who share company secrets which would discourage Whistleblowers from speaking out about fucked up shit happening in companies.


Would that be handled by the tribunals, or by national court systems relevant to the incident?


Well no. It lets the companies who the secrets were let out sue them for revealing company secrets.
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Posted 7/28/15

megahobbit wrote:

Well no. It lets the companies who the secrets were let out sue them for revealing company secrets.


Right, but in which judicial system? Or is it private arbitration? There's the UN tribunals, national judicial systems, or private arbitration. Has it come out which would hold jurisdiction in a case where an individual revealed company secrets, or is that hazy?
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Posted 7/28/15 , edited 7/29/15
So the copyright witch hunt continues to spiral into new realms of absurdity... and now the copyright holders themselves don't even have to file the complaint!

Never exactly a vote of confidence when they won't even release the full thing to the public. It's something that'll certainly impact the public but we can't even see it... makes me marvel at how we got to this point.
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Posted 7/28/15

BlueOni wrote:


megahobbit wrote:

Well no. It lets the companies who the secrets were let out sue them for revealing company secrets.


Right, but in which judicial system? Or is it private arbitration? There's the UN tribunals, national judicial systems, or private arbitration. Has it come out which would hold jurisdiction in a case where an individual revealed company secrets, or is that hazy?


To the best of my knowledge we dont know where its gonna be tried yet. Either way I dislike any system or laws that discourage whistleblowers from revealing secrets.
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Posted 7/28/15
Jurisdiction depends on location, time, and impact. Courts can stick their nose in anywhere they want to try presently, this is a "treaty" which is trying to set the ground rules for the game. Referee's(Jurist's) still make the game call but it doesn't replace the rules that you live under. Your country of location, time, and impact has to be determined, but now you will have a better idea where you stand before you commit a criminal activity. You commit a crime and ignorance of the law doesn't exclude you now, at least you will know something about how to fight it. You want your local rules to be in effect when you break others laws, then you need to stay back in your own country and leave the internet alone.

{The internet is not a country}
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Posted 7/29/15 , edited 7/29/15
I will cry and get wasted if i can't buy my anime anymore and get wasted and cry more
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Posted 7/29/15

Rei-hime wrote:

So the copyright witch hunt continues to spiral into new realms of absurdity... and now the copyright holders themselves don't even have to file the complaint!

Never exactly a vote of confidence when they won't even release the full thing to the public. It's something that'll certainly impact the public but we can't even see it... makes me marvel at how we got to this point.


well, you see, in the US it was advertised as a "We must get this deal thru before China get's their deal thru", so all the people who lived thru the cold war were immediately for it... without even seeing it.....
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Posted 7/29/15
I would not worry about this too much. (My country, thank god, is not part of the deal btw, i live in the Netherlands).

The japanese government has (it was on ANN a while back) already had talks on how not to let this damage the doujinshi market. I have heard no one else talk about cosplay.

The point is this: altough prosecution will be possible without complaint, the state/police still has to decide to prosexute. Japan government clearly has no intention of damaging the doujinshi market (the opposite rather) and sure as hell not cosplay either (which they regularly promote abroad as part of cool japan and provide subsidy to the WCS and whatnot).

So they simply aren't going to prosecute people for simple cosplay, so there is no problem. (And rememner, this is japan, if some moron/baka jn the police department decides to do so once on a whim, the government can and will use "subtle" measures to a) ruin that persons career, a b) convince the judge not to punish the "offender"). So really , nothing too worry about.

There is some stuff about medicine and whatnot in it i believe, but havent looked into it much, because it mostly seems to affect thd world countries and not where i live, and not my hobby, so too busy too really care :-\
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Posted 7/29/15
This has always been the problem with fan fiction there are rule on how to get around the legal problems mostly you can't profit from it without major changes to the content. So you can't use the original person characters and such the best example of this would be 50 Shades of Grey which was Twilight fan fic to begin with the author rewrote it because it was doing really well as fan fic so she could profit from it.

Depending on the writer and artist they maybe okay with it but most major companies like Marvel will frankly crush you since it is how they make their money. To my understanding doujinshi circles don't actually profit from this if they do they need to stop since that is mostly what the original content creators are against and flies afoul of US copy-write laws since it isn't fair usage when you are attempting to profit form someone else's work.

Here is the fair use law as it stands right now with copywriters


17 U.S.C. § 107

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 17 U.S.C. § 106 and 17 U.S.C. § 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:
the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
the nature of the copyrighted work;
the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.[3]


Personally I have no issue with fan fiction and if I was published I would have no problem with folks wiring based off my work but I don't want them profiting from my creation many writers are like this in one case the writer actually turned to his fan fiction community to expand his universe and he has helped several get published as a result. If you are interested in seeing how he did this look up Ring of Fire 1632 the writer is Eric Flint good stuff.
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Posted 7/29/15 , edited 7/29/15

Jamming777 wrote:

Jurisdiction depends on location, time, and impact. Courts can stick their nose in anywhere they want to try presently, this is a "treaty" which is trying to set the ground rules for the game. Referee's(Jurist's) still make the game call but it doesn't replace the rules that you live under. Your country of location, time, and impact has to be determined, but now you will have a better idea where you stand before you commit a criminal activity. You commit a crime and ignorance of the law doesn't exclude you now, at least you will know something about how to fight it. You want your local rules to be in effect when you break others laws, then you need to stay back in your own country and leave the internet alone.

{The internet is not a country}


Right, but what we were talking about was jurisdiction in a whistleblower's case. If I were an investigative journalist monitoring the activities of Firm A and discovered that they were committing flagrant business ethics violations of one sort or another, or worse yet were engaging in transparently illicit activity, and I revealed that to some press source (perhaps my own) to alert the public, Megahobbit is worried there would be no provisions to protect me from prosecution for revelation of company secrets depending upon the nature of the violations I revealed. That there would be no incentive for me to decide to be a whistleblower, because I'd just be sued into oblivion and/or face some other sort of retaliation from the firm for doing so.

I'm trying to get a better idea of the process by which a whistleblower would be so prosecuted since Megahobbit is expressing such a concern. Frankly, the clandestine nature of this agreement's construction is making it difficult to say whether it would be a net benefit, relatively neutral, or a net loss.
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Posted 7/29/15

BlueOni wrote:


Jamming777 wrote:

Jurisdiction depends on location, time, and impact. Courts can stick their nose in anywhere they want to try presently, this is a "treaty" which is trying to set the ground rules for the game. Referee's(Jurist's) still make the game call but it doesn't replace the rules that you live under. Your country of location, time, and impact has to be determined, but now you will have a better idea where you stand before you commit a criminal activity. You commit a crime and ignorance of the law doesn't exclude you now, at least you will know something about how to fight it. You want your local rules to be in effect when you break others laws, then you need to stay back in your own country and leave the internet alone.

{The internet is not a country}


Right, but what we were talking about was jurisdiction in a whistleblower's case. If I were an investigative journalist monitoring the activities of Firm A and discovered that they were committing flagrant business ethics violations of one sort or another, or worse yet were engaging in transparently illicit activity, and I revealed that to some press source (perhaps my own) to alert the public, Megahobbit is worried there would be no provisions to protect me from prosecution for revelation of company secrets depending upon the nature of the violations I revealed. That there would be no incentive for me to decide to be a whistleblower, because I'd just be sued into oblivion and/or face some other sort of retaliation from the firm for doing so.

I'm trying to get a better idea of the process by which a whistleblower would be so prosecuted since Megahobbit is expressing such a concern. Frankly, the clandestine nature of this agreement's construction is making it difficult to say whether it would be a net benefit, relatively neutral, or a net loss.


That scenario, you listed, could happen without the "Treaty" being in effect. Understanding that situation, are you better served by nebulous rules or can you protect yourself with a level enforcement of the same rules for everyone. There are concerns, but lack of trust makes the lawyers' richer and prices higher.


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Posted 7/29/15
Too busy to look into the topic any deeper, but stricter intellectual property laws are bad for everyone except giant corporations, so I'm guessing I'm not going to be a fan of the TPP.
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Posted 7/29/15

megahobbit wrote:It also lets companies go after people who download albums without the knowledge or consent of the actual people who own those albums.

Finally the fact we cant see the full text but random consultants for major companies can is horrible.

In summation Fuck the TPP and fuck anyone who supports it.


So wait, does that mean that they can sue people who have legitimately bought a song or album to download like on Google Play or iTunes, or just sue them from downloading from an illegal downloading site? Because not every artist personally knows that you're doing that. Yes, they give consent to whoever has the rights to their music to publicize it, make it available to the public to buy it and such, but may not know personally what sites that they are putting it on.

And yes, I agree. Fuck this TPP thing. In most ways it is a bad thing that will hurt a lot of industries, not help them.
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Posted 7/29/15

Jamming777 wrote:


BlueOni wrote:


Jamming777 wrote:

Jurisdiction depends on location, time, and impact. Courts can stick their nose in anywhere they want to try presently, this is a "treaty" which is trying to set the ground rules for the game. Referee's(Jurist's) still make the game call but it doesn't replace the rules that you live under. Your country of location, time, and impact has to be determined, but now you will have a better idea where you stand before you commit a criminal activity. You commit a crime and ignorance of the law doesn't exclude you now, at least you will know something about how to fight it. You want your local rules to be in effect when you break others laws, then you need to stay back in your own country and leave the internet alone.

{The internet is not a country}


Right, but what we were talking about was jurisdiction in a whistleblower's case. If I were an investigative journalist monitoring the activities of Firm A and discovered that they were committing flagrant business ethics violations of one sort or another, or worse yet were engaging in transparently illicit activity, and I revealed that to some press source (perhaps my own) to alert the public, Megahobbit is worried there would be no provisions to protect me from prosecution for revelation of company secrets depending upon the nature of the violations I revealed. That there would be no incentive for me to decide to be a whistleblower, because I'd just be sued into oblivion and/or face some other sort of retaliation from the firm for doing so.

I'm trying to get a better idea of the process by which a whistleblower would be so prosecuted since Megahobbit is expressing such a concern. Frankly, the clandestine nature of this agreement's construction is making it difficult to say whether it would be a net benefit, relatively neutral, or a net loss.


That scenario, you listed, could happen without the "Treaty" being in effect. Understanding that situation, are you better served by nebulous rules or can you protect yourself with a level enforcement of the same rules for everyone. There are concerns, but lack of trust makes the lawyers' richer and prices higher.




Currently whistle blowers can actually get financially rewarded through the IRS, SEC, DoJ, and other federal departments (so long as it isnt something which makes the Obama administration look bad, as it is the leader in prosecuting whistle blowers against it). Various states have their own programs.

To say TPP is a sea change of how whistle blowing is possible is to nowhere near describe the changes this means for both an open society to provide for important facts to reach the proper authorities, and those lawyers you so disparage being able to make sure the rule of law is upheld.
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