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Post Reply Aoharu x Machinegun hits a bit close to home
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Posted 8/5/15

Ejanss wrote:


Debeant wrote:Even though the whole situation that Tachibana finds herself in is a bit contrived, it's still relevant to me: having to 'pass' as a gender that doesn't match your mental state is an extremely frustrating experience.

What I appreciate is that the show hasn't tried to gloss over the experience that she's being put through. She's got to pretend to be male even though her mind is screaming "I'm a chick!" at her the entire time. She does it out of wanting to be accepted by people and not written off as a cross-dressing freak.

It's just something I can relate to.


Just to clarify the issue and bring down the Rainbow Mafia "He said something mean, lynch him!--Burn the bully, burn the bully!" hysteria a bit, before it gets blown to preemptively out of proportion:
There's what you think the show is, and what it actually IS. Like the Ranma example, the viewer bears only his own responsibility for the former, and has only himself to blame. To use the joke that's most often used in situations like this, "Reality, that's the part on the outside of the head."

Given the culturally puritanical breach between the sexes in Japan, especially at school age, there are a LOT of shows where boys find themselves forced to act out "girl" situations, either by accident or victim of circumstance, and girls find themselves in "boy" situations.
Ouran Host Club. Gonna Be the Twin-Tail. Any of a thousand "body-switching" comedies where the girl character suddenly starts talking rude "boy" talk and the boy adopts "girl" dialect.
To the Japanese, who have such deathly fear of stepping outside their social role, this itself is an intrinsically hilarious premise...And unless Kunihiko Ikuhara directed it, that's pretty much all it was intended to be. To Japanese teen boys who have no idea how to be "sensitive" to actually talk to that girl, and girls who want to assert themselves enough to pursue their goals but were never encouraged how, it's a particularly ripe premise, and in the right hands, can exploit the premise for interesting funny or touching situations.
In AxM's case, it's particularly close to Ouran's case, where a girl has to disguise herself to gain the "advantages" of the unusual rules of a particular male-dominated world, something most actual biological Japanese teen girls sympathize with, well into their years working as office-ladies in a corporate business, for example.

But anyway--So you feel you've found your own "secret" interpretation that the author must have created to "hit home". That's nice. Although that doesn't necessarily qualify it for being accurate, it just makes it your own, and not free from being incorrect.
A diehard animal-rights PETA activist might look at Mister Ed and say "This is one of the most important shows ever aired on television, because it brings us face to face with what animals might say to us if they were allowed to express themselves, and how they might feel about (personal semi-off-topic three-hour lecture on animal rights)."
Wellllll........that's certainly one interpretation, and we sure do know where it came from. However, our reaction to hearing that might be more to the person and not to the interpretation, and raise suspicions that the person needed to open up their world perceptions a bit outside their own core interests if they wanted to have a constructive exchange of ideas on it with other people.
Or, as the rather overused popular expression has it (usually whenever there's some pop-culture gag about how many times Bugs Bunny or Disney's Genie dressed up in drag for humor), that he or she needs to "get over themselves." :)


Let's just be clear about one thing. You've got no idea what it's like to experience Gender Dysphoria on a daily basis. It's not a pleasant experience, to have your mind and body be in such discord with each other that you can barely function on a day to day basis on some days. It's not a 'secret' interpretation, it's a simple observation from a part of my life that I can't be honest with people in my current day-to-day life because, let's face it, there are a lot of people like you out there.

People who think that someone with Gender Dysphoria is someone who sees a caricature of a traditionally socially oppressed as an ideal state to be in (it's not). I do want to have a genuine positive discourse on the subject, because it's something that I've been dealing with for a very, very long time. You keep making off-the-cuff remarks and comparisons to make yourself feel smart, but the only thing you've succeeded in doing is making yourself a fool.

I'm not comparing animal rights to Mr. Ed. I'm making a remark about how Gender Roles in society are contrived and largely based on perception. Tachibana has been extended conditional cissexual privilage, because of the fact that she has presented as male and now has something to lose if she corrects that. For one, she'll lose the trust of her teammates, and she'll likely be kicked off the team. But hey, I don't expect you to get that, because after all, this is just something somebody on the internet said, who's part of the 'rainbow mafia' as you so eloquently put it.

While the two anime you talk about (Ouran and Gonna be the Twin-Tail) do have gender role reversals, the protagonists react in unrealistic ways. If all you're going to do is be oppositionally sexist and cissexist, please, hold your tongue.

And by the way, when I told kdroberts to get over herself, the only thing she posted was a single, rather rude post about a single letter off in the title.
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Posted 8/5/15 , edited 8/5/15

BlazingRagnarok wrote:
OP just made a personal connection with the anime's protagonist. No more, no less.


Yes, and then went on to say "Gee, I wish it really was a show about a TG character, then she'd be JUST LIKE ME!!! "

Eh, me, I've got really weird, twisted tastes: I like movies, TV shows and books, etc., about people who aren't exactly like me, and don't tell me all the things I want to hear about the things I want to do every day--And even if I do come across one of those, I don't feel like I'm wrapping myself up in a big snuggly social security blanket where everyone's nice and understanding about everything I have to think about, and I don't have to think about the outside world at all.
I've never fought Titans, I've never owned a Death Note, I was never around to fight in the feudal Samurai wars, I've never worked in a spirit bathhouse, served on a Superdimensional Fortress, or been electrocuted by a cute alien girl; I've never met a catgirl or explained the popularity of Playstation games to a half-elf maid or tsundere 16-yo. loli fantasy princess,

Sheesh, isn't that just sick??--You'd think I was, like, trying to get away from myself by watching OTHER people and places!
That's just freakin' weird!...I mean, it's like, what do any of those things have to do with me?? I'm not changing any of the world by watching those!
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Posted 8/5/15

maxgale wrote:

Whatever you get out of the show is good, that it is able to help you with troubles you have and all, but I think it is disrespectful to the series to try to frame the experiences of the characters and story in ways that the author did not intend.


Hotaru isn't claiming she is a male in a female body, she is claiming that she cannot achieve what she wants to achieve because her society doesn't take women seriously.



That is an entirely different struggle and theme, and trying to co-opt that theme or claim that the work is something other than what the author made disrespects the characters, story, and their creator, as well as demeans the actual topics the creator and the work might address.


Does it? I was under the impression that people who are perceived as females, regardless of assigned gender or identified gender are all receiving the same treatment. As a feminist, I find it hard to separate trans women issues from cis woman issues. The same society makes light of femininity in all aspects.
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Posted 8/5/15

Ejanss wrote:


BlazingRagnarok wrote:
OP just made a personal connection with the anime's protagonist. No more, no less.


Yes, and then went on to say "Gee, I wish it really was a show about a TG character, then she'd be JUST LIKE ME!!! "

Eh, me, I've got really weird, twisted tastes: I like movies, TV shows and books, etc., about people who aren't exactly like me, and don't tell me all the things I want to hear about the things I want to do every day--And even if I do come across one of those, I don't feel like I'm wrapping myself up in a big snuggly social security blanket where everyone's nice and understanding about everything I have to think about, and I don't have to think about the outside world at all.
I've never fought Titans, I've never owned a Death Note, I was never around to fight in the feudal Samurai wars, I've never worked in a spirit bathhouse, served on a Superdimensional Fortress, or been electrocuted by a cute alien girl; I've never met a catgirl or explained the popularity of Playstation games to a half-elf maid or tsundere 16-yo. loli fantasy princess,

Sheesh, isn't that just sick??--You'd think I was, like, trying to get away from myself by watching OTHER people and places!
That's just freakin' weird!...I mean, it's like, what do any of those things have to do with me?? I'm not changing any of the world by watching those!


Let me reiterate. I was making an observation about something the main character of this series is going through that resonates to me: Her subconscious gender is not in alignment with her presented gender. She feels terrified to correct this, because she would lose the conditional cissexual privilege that she has been given.

So while the situations are vastly different between her and myself, the emotions have overlap which is something that you don't seem to even *WANT* to get.
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Posted 8/5/15 , edited 8/5/15

Debeant wrote:


maxgale wrote:

Whatever you get out of the show is good, that it is able to help you with troubles you have and all, but I think it is disrespectful to the series to try to frame the experiences of the characters and story in ways that the author did not intend.

Hotaru isn't claiming she is a male in a female body, she is claiming that she cannot achieve what she wants to achieve because her society doesn't take women seriously.

That is an entirely different struggle and theme, and trying to co-opt that theme or claim that the work is something other than what the author made disrespects the characters, story, and their creator, as well as demeans the actual topics the creator and the work might address.


Does it? I was under the impression that people who are perceived as females, regardless of assigned gender or identified gender are all receiving the same treatment. As a feminist, I find it hard to separate trans women issues from cis woman issues. The same society makes light of femininity in all aspects.


Again, that "difficulty" in telling real-life issues apart could be YOUR problem. A woman born into a society where she doesn't have rights has no choice in the situation.
You think "People pick on me because they don't understand my dress!"?--Try going to Iraq, where religious issues force real girls to have rocks thrown at them in the street for the crime of going to school.
If you're wondering, that's one of the reasons straights blow up so violently at TG's claiming "sympathy" with actual victims of social repression who aren't playing dressup in their imaginations and just trying to live their lives...And then in the depths of hypocrisy, claiming the world is being unsympathetic toward them. Gee, I guess we're being "tasteless", too?

Obviously, Hotaru's situation is fictional just for the sake of a good action-comic premise, and other real-life Japanese girls don't have rocks thrown at them just for trying to get a piece of the Old Boy's Club (which is even older in Japan)--But if you want to say that the world "doesn't understand you" because you think you have an X chromosome, just get in line, pal, and be prepared for the fact that there are a freakin' lot of people ahead of you, most of whom didn't want to be there and are a bit more deserving.
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Posted 8/5/15 , edited 8/5/15

Debeant wrote:


maxgale wrote:

Whatever you get out of the show is good, that it is able to help you with troubles you have and all, but I think it is disrespectful to the series to try to frame the experiences of the characters and story in ways that the author did not intend.


Hotaru isn't claiming she is a male in a female body, she is claiming that she cannot achieve what she wants to achieve because her society doesn't take women seriously.



That is an entirely different struggle and theme, and trying to co-opt that theme or claim that the work is something other than what the author made disrespects the characters, story, and their creator, as well as demeans the actual topics the creator and the work might address.


Does it? I was under the impression that people who are perceived as females, regardless of assigned gender or identified gender are all receiving the same treatment. As a feminist, I find it hard to separate trans women issues from cis woman issues. The same society makes light of femininity in all aspects.




Definitely. It would be presumptuous to claim that the author intends a theme or character to be "X" when we are directly told it is "Y". Especially on controversial topics, it could possibly harm the career of the content creator if it becomes "common knowledge" that they supposedly have any view on those topics. Even moreso in Japan, which culturally approaches matters of gender which do not have equivalents in Western culture.

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Posted 8/5/15
Mention Trans And the anti-social Justice warriors appear. So much for the rainbow mafia.
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Posted 8/5/15

Ejanss wrote:


Debeant wrote:


maxgale wrote:

Whatever you get out of the show is good, that it is able to help you with troubles you have and all, but I think it is disrespectful to the series to try to frame the experiences of the characters and story in ways that the author did not intend.

Hotaru isn't claiming she is a male in a female body, she is claiming that she cannot achieve what she wants to achieve because her society doesn't take women seriously.

That is an entirely different struggle and theme, and trying to co-opt that theme or claim that the work is something other than what the author made disrespects the characters, story, and their creator, as well as demeans the actual topics the creator and the work might address.


Does it? I was under the impression that people who are perceived as females, regardless of assigned gender or identified gender are all receiving the same treatment. As a feminist, I find it hard to separate trans women issues from cis woman issues. The same society makes light of femininity in all aspects.


Again, that "difficulty" in telling real-life issues apart could be YOUR problem. A woman born into a society where she doesn't have rights has no choice in the situation.
You think "People pick on me because they don't understand my dress!"?--Try going to Iraq, where religious issues force real girls to have rocks thrown at them in the street for the crime of going to school.
If you're wondering, that's one of the reasons straights blow up so violently at TG's claiming "sympathy" with people who aren't playing dressup in their imaginations and just trying to live their lives, and in the depths of hypocrisy, claiming the world is being unsympathetic toward them.

Obviously, Hotaru's situation is fictional just for the sake of a good action-comic premise, and other real-life Japanese girls don't have rocks thrown at them just for trying to get a piece of the Old Boy's Club (which is even older in Japan)--But if you want to say that the world "doesn't understand you" because you think you have an X chromosome, just get in line, pal, and be prepared for the fact that there are a freakin' lot of people ahead of you, most of whom didn't want to be there and are a bit more deserving.


Why are you so transphobic? Why are you taking such an absurd amount of effort to disprove my own wisdom on the subject of gender dichotomy to make me seem ignorant to other people?

What it is, is that I represent something that you find reprehensible. I don't know why. Maybe you've bought into the whole pathetic/deceptive transsexual theme that is pervasive in Hollywood. Talk to us, you'll find that we are actually pleasant people.

But first, allow me to explain something: Yes, being someone with Gender Dysphoria is all in my head. I say that because the brain has sexually dimorphic areas (in case you don't understand what that means, it means that women differ from men) and that science has found that these areas are significantly different in transgendered people: assigned men who have a brain with the sexually dimorphic areas in their brain having taken on the proportions of women. This is true in the reverse situation as well: women with men's brains.

But it's not as simple as just playing 'dress up in my head'.

There isn't any difficulty in telling real-life issues apart, as you seem to currently have. Rather, it's seeing two issues and recognizing that they are one and the same: Women, regardless of birth, are mistreated by society. They are treated as weak and artificial. Feminine attributes (in both trans and cis people) are seen as undesirable, while masculine attributes by society are seen as genuine and natural. That is why there is almost no difference between sexism, regardless, of who is on the receiving end of it.
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Posted 8/5/15 , edited 8/5/15

Ejanss wrote:
.






Debeant wrote:



I'm glad to hear you enjoy the anime. It's really neat how people can relate to things in their own ways sometimes. I'm not much of a tomboy, but I do act quite a bit male, sometimes pretending to be so on certain sites, so I love how Tachibana is portrayed.



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Posted 8/5/15
I might have to watch this show now.
Posted 8/5/15

scoobydew wrote:


I am curious do you think Tachibana doesn't want to be a woman or she just does this to be on Toy Gun team being a straight male I always thought she does it to be on team. I haven't heard her actually say the words I wish I was a man but that doesn't mean anything either. In the begining of the anime they showed her more at her school with her good friend another female but that was it. I thought for sure another women would call her out when they were doing capture the flag but she was fooled also. I think for a show to reach another type of audience is awesome so anything to add would be appreciated ;)


I don't honestly believe that Tachibana doesn't want to be a woman, but I could see it. I mean, before I had a word for being transgender I would dress rather masculine and if people confused me I would 'forget' to correct them. That and while I did try to appear male I never thought that I was a boy due to never knowing what being transgender was, but when I discovered it and so on, it all made sense, I suppose. For the most part anyway. I know that Tachibana is not transgender and that I should never expect for them to be trans, there's only like 3 canon trans characters in anime so, don't really have any expectations here. Just I see parts of my life in Tachibana, is all, she has to hide her identity just like I've had to hide my identity my whole life. Just something I understand, whether they're transgender or not.
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Posted 8/5/15

papagolfwhiskey wrote:

I might have to watch this show now.


Totally should.
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Posted 8/5/15

Debeant wrote:

As a feminist


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Posted 8/5/15 , edited 8/6/15
That's an interesting interpretation of the show that I can't say I've connected with personally being that I'm not someone in that situation. After seeing it described, however, I can definitely see where the OP is coming from. In fact, I can actually see how my own viewing of future episodes may be informed by this. Good stuff.
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Posted 8/5/15

kdroberts wrote:


Debeant wrote:

As a feminist




You don't know how privileged you are until you abandon your privileged status.

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