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Post Reply Aoharu x Machinegun hits a bit close to home
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Posted 8/6/15 , edited 8/6/15

Ejanss wrote:

As I've written a few stories myself, I feel I have to chime in in defensive of authors:
Back when I was starting out, I wrote a nice little magical-realist YA novel about a shy, withdrawn girl who doesn't like to reveal that she has wings. When I wrote it, I'd written the character to be a clear depiction of teens with body issues holding them back, but I knew that somewhere out there, and there always is, there would be the teen who wanted the story to be ALL ABOUT THEM! saying "It's a metaphor about a girl afraid to come out to her family and friends, and discovering how free-spirited she can be!"
Er, no. Uh-uh. That's not what he, namely me, wrote.

Lots of hot water in this thread. I have a totally unrelated question about metaphors though, if you'll humor me.

Although I'll need to clarify what I mean right after, so bear with me.

Do you think it's possible to use that bold of a metaphor, and still control its interpretation to that extent?

Clarification:

For sure if you wrote a straight character, and the reader headcanons against the facts in the story identifying the character as straight, their interpretation of the character being gay is factually incorrect. The intended reading is also reinforced if cues in the story point towards perceptions of self-image being the intended or even blatant focus.

Those facts are not in question. But when it comes to a metaphor about feeling pressured to hide something about yourself, is it wrong for the audience to not feel some association with that with regards to the things they themselves feel like they must keep hidden? They shouldn't push those specifics on the character without textual evidence, but still.

In a way I think this broadens the actual utility of the story substantially. It's less about a character who has body issues, and becomes instead about a character who feels like they have to hide something they shouldn't have to from others. Their specific issue and the reader's specific issue don't have to overlap in order for the story to still resonate.

The exact situation you described is definitely a crude self-insert attempt at rationalizing this resonance by insisting the character must be facing the same specific issue as the reader, which is just down to the reader's naivete. But as awkward as their expression of it is it just reflects that they could associate with the broad strokes of the situation.

Which is not wrong, and furthermore means the story touched on a more fundamental and easily shared experience than the specific one the character is explicitly facing. Are you fine with that, insofar as it goes, or are you saying that you would like to tighten the valve until the story is literally only about the specific topic you explicitly chose to write about?
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Posted 8/6/15
I might be the only one here that thought "this belongs in the show discussion thread"


Boy did things boil over here. Have some fun people, stop venting on some forum board out there.
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Posted 8/6/15 , edited 8/6/15

bobland wrote:

I might be the only one here that thought "this belongs in the show discussion thread"


Boy did things boil over here. Have some fun people, stop venting on some forum board out there.


The majority of the problem in this thread has been ejanss having a conniption fit over people identifying strongly with a situation a character is facing. The situation of what the character is facing--that is, having to put on a male exterior to everybody including people that she has gotten close to while presenting as male, while at the same time identifying as a female with her closest friends--is very close to what I am currently experiencing.

It apparently is offensive to him that someone can find a bit of themselves in that situation. Honestly, he's been a bit of a crybaby and is calling people who are really going through something that he'll never experience (that is, the disconnect between the social and internal gender) the 'rainbow mafia.'

He's been outright offensive towards those in this thread who are trans or identify as something other than a heterosexual cisgender person. All I wanted to do was start an adult conversation about how this show resonated with me on a personal level, and next thing I know is I'm being attacked by various people because they think they know better about me and my relationship with my own body.

So yeah, I kind of took it personally.
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Posted 8/6/15 , edited 8/6/15
"All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth." - Friedrich Nietzsche

I apologize Debeant that your thread had been derailed in such a way it should never have been. I don't think there is much needed to be said about Ejanss, as certainly most here are able to read the unconcealed malicious and condescending tone. I suggest you give them less of your attention, or rather even, a lack of fucks.

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Posted 8/6/15

Debeant wrote:


bobland wrote:

I might be the only one here that thought "this belongs in the show discussion thread"


Boy did things boil over here. Have some fun people, stop venting on some forum board out there.


The majority of the problem in this thread has been ejanss having a conniption fit over people identifying strongly with a situation a character is facing. The situation of what the character is facing--that is, having to put on a male exterior to everybody including people that she has gotten close to while presenting as male, while at the same time identifying as a female with her closest friends--is very close to what I am currently experiencing.

It apparently is offensive to him that someone can find a bit of themselves in that situation. Honestly, he's been a bit of a crybaby and is calling people who are really going through something that he'll never experience (that is, the disconnect between the social and internal gender) the 'rainbow mafia.'

He's been outright offensive towards those in this thread who are trans or identify as something other than a heterosexual cisgender person. All I wanted to do was start an adult conversation about how this show resonated with me on a personal level, and next thing I know is I'm being attacked by various people because they think they know better about me and my relationship with my own body.

So yeah, I kind of took it personally.


Don't let the anti-social justice warriors get you down. All that contempt masks equally large insecurities.
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Posted 8/6/15 , edited 8/6/15

Charizam wrote:


PrinceJudar wrote:

Most of these posts are trying to say it's wrong to interpret it one way or another. There used to be a time we'd listen to and watch things while relating it to ourselves. Ever hear a song and get something out of it that meant more to you that maybe wasn't the original intention? It's almost like it's art? You know someone says 'hey the cloud looks like a duck', but you see a knight? Geez.

Hell I find Naruto a gay love story, but hey who gives a shit?



Seriously, this right here. It's not "disrespectful" (pfft) to interpret a work a certain way, especially when that work leaves room for such an interpretation.
That and so many commentators are really exaggerating what OP is saying, they were just saying they relate to the experience not that Hotaru is actually transgender.




Except there is no room for interpretation.



Attributing views to the work of a content creator when doing so explicitly undermines the topics the work and the creator actually are addressing is most certainly disrespectful.

It is the politicization of their work in ways they did not intend. No one appreciates someone putting words in their mouth, and I doubt anyone here would appreciate creating something only for it to possibly be used as propaganda by elements in the fandom. Even if the topic creator didn't outright say , "I'm going to politicize this work and use it as a form of advocacy", that is still what occurs when dealing with controversial topics, even if they didn't intend to do so.

(Which is why it is even more important to understand that authorial intent does matter. Because misinterpreting or misrepresenting something itself can have consequences one did not intend).
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Posted 8/6/15
Why are you all so desperate to tell Debeant. That Debeant's feelings aren't real.

All they said was that this show hit them in the feels and then a 'mafia' (certainly not the rainbow one) stormed in to tell them "NA UH you can't feel that way, Trans is wrong!"

Seems to me that people really need to get over their insecurities.
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Posted 8/6/15



papagolfwhiskey wrote:

Why are you all so desperate to tell Debeant. That Debeant's feelings aren't real.

All they said was that this show hit them in the feels and then a 'mafia' (certainly not the rainbow one) stormed in to tell them "NA UH you can't feel that way, Trans is wrong!"

Seems to me that people really need to get over their insecurities.


Agreed^
Posted 8/6/15 , edited 8/6/15

maxgale wrote:

Except there is no room for interpretation.


Except they're not interpreting the work as she's a transgender person, so your argument is rather pointless. They just said they related to a situation in the anime as a trans person, not that she was trans.


maxgale wrote:

Attributing views to the work of a content creator when doing so explicitly undermines the topics the work and the creator actually are addressing is most certainly disrespectful.


Oh come off it. See, I'd say you'd have some point with this argument if you were arguing over a work that is an honest criticism of something, but this is literally just a stupid over the top manga about a girl dressing like a dude shooting toy guns, I doubt the author would really feel 'disrespected' that their work related to some random westerner on the internet. The OP isn't even attributing their views to the scenes, just that they relate to them. They looked at a scene from the work, saw that it resembled something they experienced, and said, 'Wow, I've been through something similar!' They aren't adding anything to the scene and they aren't projecting anything to it, so again, you're arguing over something that wasn't even brought up.


maxgale wrote:
It is the politicization of their work in ways they did not intend. No one appreciates someone putting words in their mouth, and I doubt anyone here would appreciate creating something only for it to possibly be used as propaganda by elements in the fandom. Even if the topic creator didn't outright say , "I'm going to politicize this work and use it as a form of advocacy", that is still what occurs when dealing with controversial topics, even if they didn't intend to do so.


Good thing no one is doing that, lmao. You're making an issue that isn't there. You're going off about intent and interpretations and how it's all so disrespectful when you misinterpreted what someone else had written up, it's rather funny honestly.
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Posted 8/6/15

bobland wrote:

I might be the only one here that thought "this belongs in the show discussion thread"


Boy did things boil over here. Have some fun people, stop venting on some forum board out there.



I think this thread is the result of people who follow a series not being able to discuss those things in the thread topics in the first place due to how spoiler-happy users in those topics tend to be.




PrinceJudar wrote:

"All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth." - Friedrich Nietzsche



That Nietzsche quote reinforces what I'm saying.


This interpretation and misrepresentation isn't the truth of the matter, but such things can become "common knowledge" when they are used to push agendas.


Even if that isn't what the topic creator intended, it becomes the de facto utilization of the work in question.





papagolfwhiskey wrote:

Why are you all so desperate to tell Debeant. That Debeant's feelings aren't real.

All they said was that this show hit them in the feels and then a 'mafia' (certainly not the rainbow one) stormed in to tell them "NA UH you can't feel that way, Trans is wrong!"

Seems to me that people really need to get over their insecurities.




It's nice that the topic creator was able to have the work help them with troubles. But as a fandom, who enjoy discussing these things, we can discuss when our theories about a series are wrong or not. Precluding that debate because of potential to upset someones' feelings is to change the way that the fandom is allowed to discuss things. Suddenly certain viewpoints are allowed, and others are not, because sharing those views "might hurt someones' feelings" even if those views are factually correct and are even the views of the creator of the work itself.


We have already seen this occurring in the anime fandom The Anime News Network doesn't allow debate that diverges from a certain ideological perspective. Anime Planet outright censors words used to describe the actual realities of characters and narrative themes in anime and manga.



That is the thing about dialogue. Unless one is willing to allow for alternative views and feedback, then it isn't actual dialogue. It is demanding that something (be it a fandom, forum, or industry) become an echo chamber of ones' personal beliefs.





For someone railing against the supposed insecurities of others, I can only wonder why the actual issues others bring up are never addressed and repeated attempts are made to end dialogue due to not engaging those persons' ideas, but by impugning their character.
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Posted 8/6/15

maxgale wrote:
Except there is no room for interpretation.



Attributing views to the work of a content creator when doing so explicitly undermines the topics the work and the creator actually are addressing is most certainly disrespectful.

It is the politicization of their work in ways they did not intend. No one appreciates someone putting words in their mouth, and I doubt anyone here would appreciate creating something only for it to possibly be used as propaganda by elements in the fandom. Even if the topic creator didn't outright say , "I'm going to politicize this work and use it as a form of advocacy", that is still what occurs when dealing with controversial topics, even if they didn't intend to do so.

(Which is why it is even more important to understand that authorial intent does matter. Because misinterpreting or misrepresenting something itself can have consequences one did not intend).


Everybody's entitled to their views. I'm not politicizing this, though. The intent of this work is the deconstruction of gender roles in Japanese society.

But the issue is that Japanese gender roles are surprisingly similar to gender roles in the west, and as a transgender person, I can understand what it's like to be in a situation that is similar to what Tachibana is. She desperately wants to tell her team members that she's female, but she can't because then she would lose the privilege of being seen as male, which is this situation is the opportunity to 'hang out with the guys'.

While she herself isn't trans, it does provide a good metaphor to what it's like to be trans.

Also, when it comes to art, there is ALWAYS room for interpretation. This is because there is such a wide variety of perspectives and experiences within everybody, so a new experience--in this case, a show--can be interpreted within those perspectives and previous experiences.

No two people have the exact same path through life so one thing that might be innocent to one person is a terrible situation to another because of an experience they've had. All you see is a commentary on the restrictive gender roles in Japanese society. I see the story on a more personal level, because the main character is experiencing emotions that are close what I'm going through at the moment.

Neither of us are wrong, but at the same time, there's no reason to attack another person's interpretation of a story through their experiences because they are going through something that happens to be a political flashpoint in the US at the moment.
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Posted 8/6/15
This thread was never meant to be a debate, that's why we're ignoring your 'actual issues'. Just a "hey I got feelz from this and I think its cool ^^". Holy fuckin' hell. You'd think it be obvious at this point.

Next thing you know I'm posting a topic about how I can relate to something Asuna from SAO feels and get a wall of unwanted bullshit thrown at me about how disrespectful to the artist I'm being. Holy shit cakes.
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Posted 8/6/15 , edited 8/6/15
Jesus Christ this thread.

How many posts does it really take to say: "I don't like you relating to this work in a LGBT way because liberal agenda rant muh feels mumble sjw/Tumblr/rainbow mafia something something #anti-PC." ?


Charizam wrote:

Oh come off it. See, I'd say you'd have some point with this argument if you were arguing over a work that is an honest criticism of something, but this is literally just a stupid over the top manga about a girl dressing like a dude shooting toy guns, I doubt the author would really feel 'disrespected' that their work related to some random westerner on the internet.



For real tho.

You can search deeper into the underlying themes of sexism, femininity, gender roles, etc. because Hotaru and her situation is interesting enough to do so but this is ultimately a BL lite series with a completely contrived gender bender angle to not break fujoshi's musou. Disagreeing with interpretation is one thing but let's not go on like preserving the "author's intent" is of the utmost importance in this case.
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Posted 8/6/15 , edited 8/6/15

Charizam wrote:


maxgale wrote:

Except there is no room for interpretation.


Except they're not interpreting the work as she's a transgender person, so your argument is rather pointless. They just said they related to a situation in the anime as a trans person, not that she was trans.


maxgale wrote:

Attributing views to the work of a content creator when doing so explicitly undermines the topics the work and the creator actually are addressing is most certainly disrespectful.


Oh come off it. See, I'd say you'd have some point with this argument if you were arguing over a work that is an honest criticism of something, but this is literally just a stupid over the top manga about a girl dressing like a dude shooting toy guns, I doubt the author would really feel 'disrespected' that their work related to some random westerner on the internet. The OP isn't even attributing their views to the scenes, just that they relate to them. They looked at a scene from the work, saw that it resembled something they experienced, and said, 'Wow, I've been through something similar!' They aren't adding anything to the scene and they aren't projecting anything to it, so again, you're arguing over something that wasn't even brought up.


maxgale wrote:
It is the politicization of their work in ways they did not intend. No one appreciates someone putting words in their mouth, and I doubt anyone here would appreciate creating something only for it to possibly be used as propaganda by elements in the fandom. Even if the topic creator didn't outright say , "I'm going to politicize this work and use it as a form of advocacy", that is still what occurs when dealing with controversial topics, even if they didn't intend to do so.


Good thing no one is doing that, lmao. You're making an issue that isn't there. You're going off about intent and interpretations and how it's all so disrespectful when you misinterpreted what someone else had written up, it's rather funny honestly.





1. Except if the topic creator says they are able to relate due to their identification, then they are explicitly making that comparison through the lens of self-identification which the protagonist of the work in question does not apply.


2. See above. Furthermore, sometimes "silly and stupid tings" are the only ways one can address certain topics. Especially if it isn't the focus of the work, in which if you stand by your assessment you might want to take the matter up with the topic creator for looking a bit too much into the work, eh?


3. Except it is what is going on. To which I already explained in my previous reply for explanation.







PrinceJudar wrote:

This thread was never meant to be a debate, that's why we're ignoring your 'actual issues'. Just a "hey I got feelz from this and I think its cool ^^". Holy fuckin' hell. You'd think it be obvious at this point.

Next thing you know I'm posting a topic about how I can relate to something Asuna from SAO feels and get a wall of unwanted bullshit thrown at me about how disrespectful to the artist I'm being. Holy shit cakes.





Rei-hime wrote:

Jesus Christ this thread.

How many posts does it really take to say: "I don't like you relating to this work in a LGBT way because liberal agenda rant muh feels mumble sjw/Tumblr/rainbow mafia something something #anti-PC." ?

.






You know, when someone makes a claim that there are those who have no problem co-opting fandoms or discourse and precluding discussion for the sake of the advocacy of their sociopolitical views, all the while ignoring anything which is inconvenient to those views, it is wise to not rush so quickly to proving that very claim.
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Posted 8/6/15

maxgale wrote:

We have already seen this occurring in the anime fandom The Anime News Network doesn't allow debate that diverges from a certain ideological perspective. Anime Planet outright censors words used to describe the actual realities of characters and narrative themes in anime and manga.

Have they censored the lolis?!
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