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Post Reply Aoharu x Machinegun hits a bit close to home
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Posted 8/6/15 , edited 8/6/15
I'm sorry what this thread turned into Debeant, but I'd suggest getting a hold of a moderator to have it closed down. It's just going to frustrate you at this point and I apologize for it.
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Posted 8/6/15

maxgale wrote:


bobland wrote:

I might be the only one here that thought "this belongs in the show discussion thread"


Boy did things boil over here. Have some fun people, stop venting on some forum board out there.



I think this thread is the result of people who follow a series not being able to discuss those things in the thread topics in the first place due to how spoiler-happy users in those topics tend to be.




PrinceJudar wrote:

"All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth." - Friedrich Nietzsche



That Nietzsche quote reinforces what I'm saying.


This interpretation and misrepresentation isn't the truth of the matter, but such things can become "common knowledge" when they are used to push agendas.


Even if that isn't what the topic creator intended, it becomes the de facto utilization of the work in question.





papagolfwhiskey wrote:

Why are you all so desperate to tell Debeant. That Debeant's feelings aren't real.

All they said was that this show hit them in the feels and then a 'mafia' (certainly not the rainbow one) stormed in to tell them "NA UH you can't feel that way, Trans is wrong!"

Seems to me that people really need to get over their insecurities.




It's nice that the topic creator was able to have the work help them with troubles. But as a fandom, who enjoy discussing these things, we can discuss when our theories about a series are wrong or not. Precluding that debate because of potential to upset someones' feelings is to change the way that the fandom is allowed to discuss things. Suddenly certain viewpoints are allowed, and others are not, because sharing those views "might hurt someones' feelings" even if those views are factually correct and are even the views of the creator of the work itself.


We have already seen this occurring in the anime fandom The Anime News Network doesn't allow debate that diverges from a certain ideological perspective. Anime Planet outright censors words used to describe the actual realities of characters and narrative themes in anime and manga.



That is the thing about dialogue. Unless one is willing to allow for alternative views and feedback, then it isn't actual dialogue. It is demanding that something (be it a fandom, forum, or industry) become an echo chamber of ones' personal beliefs.





For someone railing against the supposed insecurities of others, I can only wonder why the actual issues others bring up are never addressed and repeated attempts are made to end dialogue due to not engaging those persons' ideas, but by impugning their character.


I'm railing now am I? LOL.
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Posted 8/6/15 , edited 8/6/15
Jebus flipping cripes man, Max lay off and go do circles somewhere else.

The OP was not saying if or if not Hotaru was trans. They were relating at having to hide something relating to gender, which Hotaru is very much doing. So their feelings towards the show is valid.

As a writer, I am so done with your bull at 'preserving' what the creator wanted. You are going to an extreme that is not there. While saying factual stuff that is incorrect would be very annoying, having someone relate to a character in this way is in no way a fandom crime. Creators create people or stories that can be related-able in many ways and often not always as intended. This is what happens when you put something out into the world. Heck, other writers I know say something the way people interpreted things can be more interesting than they intended or show things in a different light. (not saying if this is or is not the case here.)

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Posted 8/6/15

PrinceJudar wrote:

I'm sorry what this thread turned into Debeant, but I'd suggest getting a hold of a moderator to have it closed down. It's just going to frustrate you at this point and I apologize for it.


I sometimes wonder if that wasn't the goal.

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Posted 8/6/15

maxgale wrote:

You know, when someone makes a claim that there are those who have no problem co-opting fandoms or discourse and precluding discussion for the sake of the advocacy of their sociopolitical views, all the while ignoring anything which is inconvenient to those views, it is wise to not rush so quickly to proving that very claim.


This discussion was hijacked by some guy with a clear anti-liberal slant for the sake of "author's intent" all the while asserting his own agenda against the so-called "rainbow mafia" and mocking anything said to him by the OP in opposition. His posts were begging for an ignore option.

I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying, I just don't see how it matters much in this case when the OP's intention wasn't political.
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Posted 8/6/15

Debeant wrote:


maxgale wrote:
Except there is no room for interpretation.



Attributing views to the work of a content creator when doing so explicitly undermines the topics the work and the creator actually are addressing is most certainly disrespectful.

It is the politicization of their work in ways they did not intend. No one appreciates someone putting words in their mouth, and I doubt anyone here would appreciate creating something only for it to possibly be used as propaganda by elements in the fandom. Even if the topic creator didn't outright say , "I'm going to politicize this work and use it as a form of advocacy", that is still what occurs when dealing with controversial topics, even if they didn't intend to do so.

(Which is why it is even more important to understand that authorial intent does matter. Because misinterpreting or misrepresenting something itself can have consequences one did not intend).


Everybody's entitled to their views. I'm not politicizing this, though. The intent of this work is the deconstruction of gender roles in Japanese society.

But the issue is that Japanese gender roles are surprisingly similar to gender roles in the west, and as a transgender person, I can understand what it's like to be in a situation that is similar to what Tachibana is. She desperately wants to tell her team members that she's female, but she can't because then she would lose the privilege of being seen as male, which is this situation is the opportunity to 'hang out with the guys'.

While she herself isn't trans, it does provide a good metaphor to what it's like to be trans.

Also, when it comes to art, there is ALWAYS room for interpretation. This is because there is such a wide variety of perspectives and experiences within everybody, so a new experience--in this case, a show--can be interpreted within those perspectives and previous experiences.

No two people have the exact same path through life so one thing that might be innocent to one person is a terrible situation to another because of an experience they've had. All you see is a commentary on the restrictive gender roles in Japanese society. I see the story on a more personal level, because the main character is experiencing emotions that are close what I'm going through at the moment.

Neither of us are wrong, but at the same time, there's no reason to attack another person's interpretation of a story through their experiences because they are going through something that happens to be a political flashpoint in the US at the moment.


Regarding the bold, that's what I've been trying to explain. Japanese and Western culture and society have dramatically different approaches to, and conceptualizations of, gender.

It is why the approach of trying to understand a work from a different culture through the perspective of ones' own culture involves having that culture or those experiences be given priority over what the actual work is saying.



Interpretation is always there, except for when the audience is explicitly told by the author what the work is about.


As for "attacking" ones' opinion, disagreement is not attacking. Otherwise, no discussion could plausible held on a discussion forum.


Insomnist wrote:


maxgale wrote:

We have already seen this occurring in the anime fandom The Anime News Network doesn't allow debate that diverges from a certain ideological perspective. Anime Planet outright censors words used to describe the actual realities of characters and narrative themes in anime and manga.

Have they censored the lolis?!




I personally wouldn't mind, but I wouldn't try to claim that it isn't part of the actual culture and fandom as they would.
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Posted 8/6/15
how did it get from talking about the show to
"I'm sorry about what this thread has become"
Posted 8/6/15

maxgale wrote:



1. Except if the topic creator says they are able to relate due to their identification, then they are explicitly making that comparison through the lens of self-identification which the protagonist of the work in question does not apply.


Did you even watch the show in question? Cause they're referencing actual scenes and saying they relate. Honestly, they're not adding anything to the narrative, you're making an issue out of nothing. Your argument was that they were projecting onto the series, they're not, they're taking actual scenes from the show and saying, 'Wow my life had something similar, but different', not anything else.



maxgale wrote:
3. Except it is what is going on. To which I already explained in my previous reply for explanation.


Except..... No it isn't. And you're once again, making an issue out of nothing.

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Posted 8/6/15 , edited 8/6/15

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


maxgale wrote:





It's nice that the topic creator was able to have the work help them with troubles. But as a fandom, who enjoy discussing these things, we can discuss when our theories about a series are wrong or not. Precluding that debate because of potential to upset someones' feelings is to change the way that the fandom is allowed to discuss things. Suddenly certain viewpoints are allowed, and others are not, because sharing those views "might hurt someones' feelings" even if those views are factually correct and are even the views of the creator of the work itself.


We have already seen this occurring in the anime fandom The Anime News Network doesn't allow debate that diverges from a certain ideological perspective. Anime Planet outright censors words used to describe the actual realities of characters and narrative themes in anime and manga.



That is the thing about dialogue. Unless one is willing to allow for alternative views and feedback, then it isn't actual dialogue. It is demanding that something (be it a fandom, forum, or industry) become an echo chamber of ones' personal beliefs.





For someone railing against the supposed insecurities of others, I can only wonder why the actual issues others bring up are never addressed and repeated attempts are made to end dialogue due to not engaging those persons' ideas, but by impugning their character.


I'm railing now am I? LOL.



Not surprising.......



Sacae89 wrote:

Jebus flipping cripes man, Max lay off and go do circles somewhere else.

The OP was not saying if or if not Hotaru was trans. They were relating at having to hide something relating to gender, which Hotaru is very much doing. So their feelings towards the show is valid.

As a writer, I am so done with your bull at 'preserving' what the creator wanted. You are going to an extreme that is not there. While saying factual stuff that is incorrect would be very annoying, having someone relate to a character in this way is in no way a fandom crime. Creators create people or stories that can be related-able in many ways and often not always as intended. This is what happens when you put something out into the world. Heck, other writers I know say something the way people interpreted things can be more interesting than they intended or show things in a different light. (not saying if this is or is not the case here.)




And I am saying why the interpretation doesn't actually relate to the actual work.



99% of what has resulted from that is, "You can't question that persons' feelings!" and not, you know, anything to do with the actual content in question or any of the other topics related to it.


So I then tried to explain how such views of how dialogue works in fandom are not good for fandom, which can (and has been documented in the anime fandom itself) lead to fandom being co-opted by ideologues and leads to censorship in general.


That isn't going in circles, that is a delineation of a claim with supporting evidence leading towards matters which frame the dialogue within, and nature of, fandom itself, and the content which created the fandom to begin with.





Rei-hime wrote:


maxgale wrote:

You know, when someone makes a claim that there are those who have no problem co-opting fandoms or discourse and precluding discussion for the sake of the advocacy of their sociopolitical views, all the while ignoring anything which is inconvenient to those views, it is wise to not rush so quickly to proving that very claim.


This discussion was hijacked by some guy with a clear anti-liberal slant for the sake of "author's intent" all the while asserting his own agenda against the so-called "rainbow mafia" and mocking anything said to him by the OP in opposition. His posts were begging for an ignore option.

I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying, I just don't see how it matters much in this case when the OP's intention wasn't political.




Regarding Enjass, I can't speak to the content of his arguments, as that is for him to make, but the topic itself is framed by sociopolitical beliefs. It can't be blamed on him on turning the thread political, when the topic itself is inherently about cultural beliefs.
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Posted 8/6/15

CKD-Anime wrote:

Best transgender character.



I disagree


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Posted 8/6/15

I raise you Kyubei, especially since we just had the Gender Bender Arc




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Posted 8/6/15

maxgale wrote:



And I am saying why the interpretation doesn't actually relate to the actual work.




No - what you are doing is ignoring both the show and the intent of the original post.

Hotaru goes through a crisis relating to hiding her gender. OP can relate to hiding something relating to gender.

It doesn't mean they were having the same crisis.

You haven't even finish the show last I checked.

You have taken something and done something else with it. This has nothing to do with fandom or the nature of fandom or what the show is really or really not trying to say.
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Posted 8/6/15

Sacae89 wrote:


maxgale wrote:



And I am saying why the interpretation doesn't actually relate to the actual work.




No - what you are doing is ignoring both the show and the intent of the original post.

Hotaru goes through a crisis relating to hiding her gender. OP can relate to hiding something relating to gender.

It doesn't mean they were having the same crisis.

You haven't even finish the show last I checked.

You have taken something and done something else with it. This has nothing to do with fandom or the nature of fandom or what the show is really or really not trying to say.




How can I finish the show when it hasn't finished airing yet?
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Posted 8/6/15

maxgale wrote:





How can I finish the show when it hasn't finished airing yet?


Siiigh I meant caught up silly.
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Posted 8/6/15

Sacae89 wrote:


maxgale wrote:





How can I finish the show when it hasn't finished airing yet?


Siiigh I meant caught up silly.




I think Grauger said Hotaru goes yandere, but I haven't seen most recent episode.
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