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Post Reply Are you a feminist?
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Posted 8/10/15

LITVoid wrote:



Feminist
noun
a person who supports feminism.

Feminism
noun
the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

How can you be a moderate feminist if this is the definition? Oh ya because there is more to the term "feminist"

I do not agree with a lot of what "feminists" talk about their points are inaccurate. So no I'm not a feminist.


Because, if you had taken any sociology classes or even looked remotely into feminism, you would know that like any belief or social movement, there are many different types of what we can call feminism, such as conservative feminism, radical feminism, moderate feminism, new wave feminism, marxist feminism, cultural feminism.

In fact this very post that you've responded with is the exact reason that feminism, as a concept gets a rough knock, of course, no thanks to radical feminists and new wave feminists of course. Painting every feminist with the same brush is like painting every atheist, every conservative, every liberal, every communist, every theist with the same brush, pointless, arrogant and stupid.



Ooh ad hominem that's a no-no friend. The difference in the examples you gave is that everyone is/should be a feminist only a few people are atheists, liberals ect. If your definition of feminist is someone who stands for gender rights than everyone is a feminist. And if thats the case why make a label that everyone would fall under? Obviously there is more to feminism than just that.
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Posted 8/10/15 , edited 8/10/15

Irishsushi wrote:


LITVoid wrote:



Feminist
noun
a person who supports feminism.

Feminism
noun
the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

How can you be a moderate feminist if this is the definition? Oh ya because there is more to the term "feminist"

I do not agree with a lot of what "feminists" talk about their points are inaccurate. So no I'm not a feminist.


Because, if you had taken any sociology classes or even looked remotely into feminism, you would know that like any belief or social movement, there are many different types of what we can call feminism, such as conservative feminism, radical feminism, moderate feminism, new wave feminism, marxist feminism, cultural feminism.

In fact this very post that you've responded with is the exact reason that feminism, as a concept gets a rough knock, of course, no thanks to radical feminists and new wave feminists of course. Painting every feminist with the same brush is like painting every atheist, every conservative, every liberal, every communist, every theist with the same brush, pointless, arrogant and stupid.



Ooh ad hominem that's a no-no friend. The difference in the examples you gave is that everyone is/should be a feminist only a few people are atheists, liberals ect. If your definition of feminist is someone who stands for gender rights than everyone is a feminist. And if thats the case why make a label that everyone would fall under? Obviously there is more to feminism than just that.


Nice try, but twisting my words isn't going to win this argument. The point of posting all those different belief systems is that it shows, like with feminism, that interpretations of what is right and what should happen or, in the case of feminism, what is equality amongst the sexes to certain people can be radically different and stuff fall under the same large encompassing banner. Feminism means different things to different people and what is equality to some is not equality to others, that much is true, but it doesn't change the fact that by saying "I believe men and women to be equal," you are inherently a feminist. So instead of crying ad hominem, try reading the stuff presented to you.

Edited for clarity of an original sentence of the post
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Posted 8/10/15
Well at least in the USA woman do have all rights the same as men. Idk know what they want, to force everyone to see woman and men as equals? Their will always be someone who does not, and you can not force your opinion on them.
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Posted 8/10/15

LITVoid wrote:

Nice try, but twisting my words isn't going to win this argument. The point of posting all those different belief systems is that it shows, like with feminism, that interpretations of what is right and what should happen or, in the case of feminism, what is equality amongst the sexes to certain people can be radically different and stuff fall under the same large encompassing banner. Feminism means different things to different people and what is equality to some is not equality to others, that much is true, but it doesn't change the fact that by saying "I believe men and women to be equal," you are inherently a feminist. So instead of crying ad hominem, try reading the stuff presented to you.

Edited for clarity of an original sentence of the post


Advocating it makes one a feminist, not just believing it.
Posted 8/11/15
I am to a certain degree, yes
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Posted 8/11/15

LITVoid wrote:


Nice try, but twisting my words isn't going to win this argument. The point of posting all those different belief systems is that it shows, like with feminism, that interpretations of what is right and what should happen or, in the case of feminism, what is equality amongst the sexes to certain people can be radically different and stuff fall under the same large encompassing banner. Feminism means different things to different people and what is equality to some is not equality to others, that much is true, but it doesn't change the fact that by saying "I believe men and women to be equal," you are inherently a feminist. So instead of crying ad hominem, try reading the stuff presented to you.

Edited for clarity of an original sentence of the post


1. No I didn't twist your words.
2. Its impossible to debate this point when your defense is basically "feminism is what ever I want it to be." An atheist is an atheist, there is no moderate, new age ect. You definition is so open and broad it defeats the purpose of calling someone a feminist.
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Posted 8/11/15
I'm a person who believes in gender equality. Feminism is a fairly tainted word these days unfortunately. Mostly because of the people who call themselves feminists on tumblr and those like them.
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Posted 8/11/15
honestly I used to not think about this stuff but then when put on the spot I do believe that everyone should have truly equal rights and pay so therefore I am a feminist in a sense. People are so afraid to identify under that term though.
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Posted 8/11/15

Irishsushi wrote:


LITVoid wrote:


Nice try, but twisting my words isn't going to win this argument. The point of posting all those different belief systems is that it shows, like with feminism, that interpretations of what is right and what should happen or, in the case of feminism, what is equality amongst the sexes to certain people can be radically different and stuff fall under the same large encompassing banner. Feminism means different things to different people and what is equality to some is not equality to others, that much is true, but it doesn't change the fact that by saying "I believe men and women to be equal," you are inherently a feminist. So instead of crying ad hominem, try reading the stuff presented to you.

Edited for clarity of an original sentence of the post


1. No I didn't twist your words.
2. Its impossible to debate this point when your defense is basically "feminism is what ever I want it to be." An atheist is an atheist, there is no moderate, new age ect. You definition is so open and broad it defeats the purpose of calling someone a feminist.


Wrong again my friend, there are many differing types of atheists all different in how they interact with others. Just like feminists, hence why I included it in the list. Like religion, political beliefs and whatnot feminism has a basic belief set and then you decide what that belief set means to you. So no Feminism isn't whatever I want it to be, it's what the person involved in it believes it to be. To some it might mean a greater fixation on reproductive rights, others wage cap, some think it's just their right to do whatever they want whether it be stay at home and be a homemaker, but to other feminists that is regressive, hence why you even get fights between feminist sects.

Feminism is a broad definition, hence why generally, those that talk about it should consider which type of feminism they dislike. If you disagree with the so called bra burning feminists, it's probably either radical or new wave feminism, much like how I, as an atheist, have issues with an atheist like Dawkins that openly mocks religious people just to be a prick.

What I'm trying to get at is that by saying you 'don't agree with what feminists are saying,' you're being reductive, oversimplifying a movement that means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. The broad definition is simple, hence why most people are feminist by definition, but disliking feminism because of what one sect has said is incorrect. That has been my entire point this entire time. I have been trying to show you that feminism is both simplistic in its definition and intricate in its interpretation.
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Posted 8/11/15

LITVoid wrote:


Wrong again my friend, there are many differing types of atheists all different in how they interact with others. Just like feminists, hence why I included it in the list. Like religion, political beliefs and whatnot feminism has a basic belief set and then you decide what that belief set means to you. So no Feminism isn't whatever I want it to be, it's what the person involved in it believes it to be. To some it might mean a greater fixation on reproductive rights, others wage cap, some think it's just their right to do whatever they want whether it be stay at home and be a homemaker, but to other feminists that is regressive, hence why you even get fights between feminist sects.

Feminism is a broad definition, hence why generally, those that talk about it should consider which type of feminism they dislike. If you disagree with the so called bra burning feminists, it's probably either radical or new wave feminism, much like how I, as an atheist, have issues with an atheist like Dawkins that openly mocks religious people just to be a prick.

What I'm trying to get at is that by saying you 'don't agree with what feminists are saying,' you're being reductive, oversimplifying a movement that means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. The broad definition is simple, hence why most people are feminist by definition, but disliking feminism because of what one sect has said is incorrect. That has been my entire point this entire time. I have been trying to show you that feminism is both simplistic in its definition and intricate in its interpretation.


Using big words and multi paragraph responses isn't helping anything. If we are all feminists then whats the point of Identifying as one and from what you just stated even If I identified as a feminist other feminists could say I'm not a feminist because they disagree with my view points.
And on the topic of atheist "sects" whether or not you like Richard Dawkins (really?) he is still a atheist the same type as you because you both believe the same exact thing. Unlike what feminism is like.
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Posted 8/11/15

Irishsushi wrote:


LITVoid wrote:


Wrong again my friend, there are many differing types of atheists all different in how they interact with others. Just like feminists, hence why I included it in the list. Like religion, political beliefs and whatnot feminism has a basic belief set and then you decide what that belief set means to you. So no Feminism isn't whatever I want it to be, it's what the person involved in it believes it to be. To some it might mean a greater fixation on reproductive rights, others wage cap, some think it's just their right to do whatever they want whether it be stay at home and be a homemaker, but to other feminists that is regressive, hence why you even get fights between feminist sects.

Feminism is a broad definition, hence why generally, those that talk about it should consider which type of feminism they dislike. If you disagree with the so called bra burning feminists, it's probably either radical or new wave feminism, much like how I, as an atheist, have issues with an atheist like Dawkins that openly mocks religious people just to be a prick.

What I'm trying to get at is that by saying you 'don't agree with what feminists are saying,' you're being reductive, oversimplifying a movement that means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. The broad definition is simple, hence why most people are feminist by definition, but disliking feminism because of what one sect has said is incorrect. That has been my entire point this entire time. I have been trying to show you that feminism is both simplistic in its definition and intricate in its interpretation.


Using big words and multi paragraph responses isn't helping anything. If we are all feminists then whats the point of Identifying as one and from what you just stated even If I identified as a feminist other feminists could say I'm not a feminist because they disagree with my view points.
And on the topic of atheist "sects" whether or not you like Richard Dawkins (really?) he is still a atheist the same type as you because you both believe the same exact thing. Unlike what feminism is like.


Big words and multiparagraph responses? Really? This is nothing, just me trying to expand on my argument. As one should when talking to someone. So....to keep it short and simple lolwut?

Anyways onto the meatier part of your argument. You're right, some feminists wouldn't call you feminist, just like to some liberals, I wouldn't be a liberal. Such is life. As I mentioned with sects, it isn't just what the belief is, but also how you interact and engage with said belief, hence why Dawkins and I are on two different levels. Both atheists, but how we integrate atheism into our lives, completely different.

Is that short enough for you?
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Posted 8/11/15

LITVoid wrote:


Irishsushi wrote:


LITVoid wrote:


Wrong again my friend, there are many differing types of atheists all different in how they interact with others. Just like feminists, hence why I included it in the list. Like religion, political beliefs and whatnot feminism has a basic belief set and then you decide what that belief set means to you. So no Feminism isn't whatever I want it to be, it's what the person involved in it believes it to be. To some it might mean a greater fixation on reproductive rights, others wage cap, some think it's just their right to do whatever they want whether it be stay at home and be a homemaker, but to other feminists that is regressive, hence why you even get fights between feminist sects.

Feminism is a broad definition, hence why generally, those that talk about it should consider which type of feminism they dislike. If you disagree with the so called bra burning feminists, it's probably either radical or new wave feminism, much like how I, as an atheist, have issues with an atheist like Dawkins that openly mocks religious people just to be a prick.

What I'm trying to get at is that by saying you 'don't agree with what feminists are saying,' you're being reductive, oversimplifying a movement that means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. The broad definition is simple, hence why most people are feminist by definition, but disliking feminism because of what one sect has said is incorrect. That has been my entire point this entire time. I have been trying to show you that feminism is both simplistic in its definition and intricate in its interpretation.


Using big words and multi paragraph responses isn't helping anything. If we are all feminists then whats the point of Identifying as one and from what you just stated even If I identified as a feminist other feminists could say I'm not a feminist because they disagree with my view points.
And on the topic of atheist "sects" whether or not you like Richard Dawkins (really?) he is still a atheist the same type as you because you both believe the same exact thing. Unlike what feminism is like.


Big words and multiparagraph responses? Really? This is nothing, just me trying to expand on my argument. As one should when talking to someone. So....to keep it short and simple lolwut?

Anyways onto the meatier part of your argument. You're right, some feminists wouldn't call you feminist, just like to some liberals, I wouldn't be a liberal. Such is life. As I mentioned with sects, it isn't just what the belief is, but also how you interact and engage with said belief, hence why Dawkins and I are on two different levels. Both atheists, but how we integrate atheism into our lives, completely different.

Is that short enough for you?

Then what the fuck is your point? I made a comment saying I'm not a feminist and all you've done is argue about different sects of belief systems? I don't advocate for women's rights so how am I a feminist? Why not just let people Identify as what ever they want and not force labels onto others??
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Posted 8/11/15

Irishsushi wrote:


LITVoid wrote:


Irishsushi wrote:


LITVoid wrote:


Wrong again my friend, there are many differing types of atheists all different in how they interact with others. Just like feminists, hence why I included it in the list. Like religion, political beliefs and whatnot feminism has a basic belief set and then you decide what that belief set means to you. So no Feminism isn't whatever I want it to be, it's what the person involved in it believes it to be. To some it might mean a greater fixation on reproductive rights, others wage cap, some think it's just their right to do whatever they want whether it be stay at home and be a homemaker, but to other feminists that is regressive, hence why you even get fights between feminist sects.

Feminism is a broad definition, hence why generally, those that talk about it should consider which type of feminism they dislike. If you disagree with the so called bra burning feminists, it's probably either radical or new wave feminism, much like how I, as an atheist, have issues with an atheist like Dawkins that openly mocks religious people just to be a prick.

What I'm trying to get at is that by saying you 'don't agree with what feminists are saying,' you're being reductive, oversimplifying a movement that means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. The broad definition is simple, hence why most people are feminist by definition, but disliking feminism because of what one sect has said is incorrect. That has been my entire point this entire time. I have been trying to show you that feminism is both simplistic in its definition and intricate in its interpretation.


Using big words and multi paragraph responses isn't helping anything. If we are all feminists then whats the point of Identifying as one and from what you just stated even If I identified as a feminist other feminists could say I'm not a feminist because they disagree with my view points.
And on the topic of atheist "sects" whether or not you like Richard Dawkins (really?) he is still a atheist the same type as you because you both believe the same exact thing. Unlike what feminism is like.


Big words and multiparagraph responses? Really? This is nothing, just me trying to expand on my argument. As one should when talking to someone. So....to keep it short and simple lolwut?

Anyways onto the meatier part of your argument. You're right, some feminists wouldn't call you feminist, just like to some liberals, I wouldn't be a liberal. Such is life. As I mentioned with sects, it isn't just what the belief is, but also how you interact and engage with said belief, hence why Dawkins and I are on two different levels. Both atheists, but how we integrate atheism into our lives, completely different.

Is that short enough for you?

Then what the fuck is your point? I made a comment saying I'm not a feminist and all you've done is argue about different sects of belief systems? I don't advocate for women's rights so how am I a feminist? Why not just let people Identify as what ever they want and not force labels onto others??


Because in a thread about a label, I feel like it's proper to debate the interpretation of said label. Especially when there seems to be a complete and utter lack of understanding on the label, its history and its current forms. So since you've apparently missed my entire point despite me repeating it multiple times is that by definition you are a feminist. And that's ok. We don't need these mental gymnasitics of "I believe in equality, but disagree on feminism," nonsense that seems to find itself all over the internet.

As to labels, guess what, they surround us, accept that by participating in society you will be labeled for efficiency,it's how humanity does things. You're going to see that in every aspect of life, so understanding how people are going to view you is also important. Think of that as some free life advice.
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Posted 8/11/15 , edited 8/11/15

Irishsushi wrote:

Well since I never agree with the points "feminists" put out I'd say probably not. Do I think women and men are equal? yes..


The issue with this line of thinking is, that while egalitarianism sounds really good on paper, it has far too many assumptions with nothing to back them. The first assumption is that sexism is not ingrained into society, which it is. The second is that men and women have equal chances of discrimination, which isn't true. Women are far more likely to be discriminated against, from blatant issues such as abortion and wage disparity, to more insidious problems, such as how society perceives a woman's body.

What's important to understand is that feminism is not about oppression of men. Feminism is about oppression by the patriarchy, and while all patriarchs are men, not all men are patriarchs. The Bush family are a family of patriarchs. You and I are (probably) not. Patriarchy informs society, and while Western society has generally worked beyond the most obvious of discrimination, less obvious methods of oppression still exist.

So when you sort of say 'I believe men and woman are equal, but I'm not a feminist' it makes the issue too ground level and personal. Because what well thought out, intelligent feminism will argue is it's not about gender warfare, it's about looking at society and the allocation of power which traditionally has gone to powerful men. To say you're a feminist isn't saying anything about men or women in particular, it's about acknowledging the harmful nature of a solely masculine dominated society. To say you're a feminist is to say you wish to fight against oppressive ideas within society that ask us to conform to certain ideas and roles. It's the same reason 'Why don't we have a straight pride parade' is bad form because everyday is straight pride day. LGBT people are minimised and excluded by society as a whole, therefore it's important their voices are heard and expressed. It's not about diminishing the 'pride' straight people have, it's about raising the pride of others above the clutter and noise.

Same goes for feminism. Giving an identity and voice to a movement against harmful societal ideas is important and valuable, and allows us to hone in and dissect the pertinent issues.

Other important thing is that there is no clear cut 'feminist thought'. Many, many people have varied ideas on what is harmful and what is positive, so it pays off massively to dig into a bunch of different feminist thoughts and see what makes sense to you as an individual. Relying on social media for the overriding 'feminist thought of the day' is bad and will only sour your opinion of a label that should galvanize. Letting immature people and immature ideas dictate that conversation plays exactly into the sort of gender warfare that only benefits the powerful.
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Posted 8/11/15 , edited 8/11/15

LITVoid wrote:

Well to be fair you weren't very clear in your point. And that's some shitty life advice imo If you want to live be the labels others give you have fun, but I'll pass.
We can't go by the basic definition of words when we are describing what someone is. Now-an-days amny of these words have added connotations that as you said differentiate different attitudes.
So ya I'll give by definition I'm a feminist as is the majority of people, but what I won't give you is that there by I agree with what a majority of "feminists" believe.
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