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Post Reply What are your thoughts on traditional feminism? Modern feminism?
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Posted 8/12/15
I'm in agreement with Bearbudah on the fact that the term "Feminism" in itself is contradictory for equality in this day and age, hence why "Egalitarianism" is becoming more commonly used.

I like traditional feminism. I do not consider myself as such because I see discrimination done to all - regardless of gender, race, beliefs, and such - but traditional feminism has done great things making it illegal for some of those discriminations over the decades.

I have yet to see anything substantial done by the current progressive parties, other than complain how they've been offended by such and such, or being oppressed by something else. Modern feminism is hypocritical. Their reasons have no tangible facts behind them. They base their entire ideology off of feelings and hyperbole, rather than logic and reason. The small amount of facts they do use, tend to be either unsubstantial or half truths.

There's also the whole "Social Justice" aspect of modern feminism. The idea that the oppressors need to be oppressed to understand their plight. It's as if they're Malcom X and traditional feminism is MLK. The X-Men vs The Brotherhood of Mutants. Instead of just trying to abolish discrimination via political means in a peaceful way, they try to convinced the oppressed with rally cries and provoke almost physical confrontation for the "injustice" against them. They want to become the oppressors to show how they felt. They want special treatment because of past aggressions. They're not looking for equality. They want to be put on top because they exist. That's why they use the "White Guilt" type of reasoning. They just call it "White Privilege" or "Male Privilege" instead.

They want to enact their own justice on those that they see as toxic or privileged, even though a majority are or more privileged than those they seek vengeance upon.

Modern feminists have done more harm to their cause than good. They have no clear goal, only what mildly annoyed them that week. They don't try to enact change, they're mostly clicktivists that do nothing but complain on social media. Their opinions are based off of misrepresented facts and political correctness, but whenever their stance is debated, they turn to ad hominem or strawmaning rather than backing up and proving their argument with facts and logic.
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Posted 8/12/15 , edited 8/12/15

Crylliac wrote:

But I think the biggest reason I became a feminist and why I think it is so important to have, is because more than anything else, I identify as a gamer. And that is, quite possibly, one of the worst environments for women of any background to be in, in first world countries. I don't like that discrimination based on gender is so prevalent in that culture, or in any other culture that anyone finds themselves in. Which I beleive is the driving purpose behind third-wave feminism.


Out of curiosity, may I ask you how you came to the conclusion that gaming is "one of the worst environments for women of any background to be in", because I don't see that as being anywhere close to true...
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Posted 8/12/15

sundin13 wrote:


Crylliac wrote:

But I think the biggest reason I became a feminist and why I think it is so important to have, is because more than anything else, I identify as a gamer. And that is, quite possibly, one of the worst environments for women of any background to be in, in first world countries. I don't like that discrimination based on gender is so prevalent in that culture, or in any other culture that anyone finds themselves in. Which I beleive is the driving purpose behind third-wave feminism.


Out of curiosity, may I ask you how you came to the conclusion that gaming is "one of the worst environments for women of any background to be in", because I simply don't see that as being anywhere close to true...


http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gamergate
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Posted 8/12/15

megahobbit wrote:


sundin13 wrote:

Out of curiosity, may I ask you how you came to the conclusion that gaming is "one of the worst environments for women of any background to be in", because I simply don't see that as being anywhere close to true...


http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gamergate


The media's treatment of Gamergate was one of the things I was referring to earlier when I said that they allowed one side to dominate the conversation and propagandize the issue to demonize the other side. The misrepresentation of Gamergate as being an "anti-women" movement is ridiculous, especially when taking into consideration the large amount of women and minorities in the movement and GG's participation with groups like the Fine Young Capitalists. If Gamergate is the key evidence that gaming is somehow "one of the worst environments for women", than I say that point is essentially moot.
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Posted 8/12/15 , edited 8/12/15

H2SJaeger wrote:

I'm in agreement with Bearbudah on the fact that the term "Feminism" in itself is contradictory for equality in this day and age, hence why "Egalitarianism" is becoming more commonly used.

I like traditional feminism
. I do not consider myself as such because I see discrimination done to all - regardless of gender, race, beliefs, and such - but traditional feminism has done great things making it illegal for some of those discriminations over the decades.

I have yet to see anything substantial done by the current progressive parties, other than complain how they've been offended by such and such, or being oppressed by something else. Modern feminism is hypocritical. Their reasons have no tangible facts behind them. They base their entire ideology off of feelings and hyperbole, rather than logic and reason. The small amount of facts they do use, tend to be either unsubstantial or half truths.

There's also the whole "Social Justice" aspect of modern feminism. The idea that the oppressors need to be oppressed to understand their plight. It's as if they're Malcom X and traditional feminism is MLK. The X-Men vs The Brotherhood of Mutants. Instead of just trying to abolish discrimination via political means in a peaceful way, they try to convinced the oppressed with rally cries and provoke almost physical confrontation for the "injustice" against them. They want to become the oppressors to show how they felt. They want special treatment because of past aggressions. They're not looking for equality. They want to be put on top because they exist. That's why they use the "White Guilt" type of reasoning. They just call it "White Privilege" or "Male Privilege" instead.

They want to enact their own justice on those that they see as toxic or privileged, even though a majority are or more privileged than those they seek vengeance upon.

Modern feminists have done more harm to their cause than good. They have no clear goal, only what mildly annoyed them that week. They don't try to enact change, they're mostly clicktivists that do nothing but complain on social media. Their opinions are based off of misrepresented facts and political correctness, but whenever their stance is debated, they turn to ad hominem or strawmaning rather than backing up and proving their argument with facts and logic.


First, I'm glad you like traditional feminism!

I understand why egalitarianism is becoming more popular, as it is what feminism should have strove to be and has misguided itself away from. I find it unfortunate, but egalitarianism is more of standing up for what feminism should have evolved into. To be more understanding and accepting of all gender related issues as a whole. It is also a label that does get away from the follies of modern feminism by change of label.

I do not find any harm in the egalitarian label, it is a good intentioned stance, certainly! It is only sad that people had to find a new label to demonstrate their love of equality for all genders and that modern feminism has unintentionally pushed that.

I honestly don't think most modern feminists seek superiority, but some of the loudest ones do. Most of them mean well, but have bad results because they wish to speak much more often than listen. Some of them are certainly often misled or fall into a belief of false reality because they get too wrapped in it and the 'anger' within the crowd of the movement.


Crylliac wrote:



But I think the biggest reason I became a feminist and why I think it is so important to have, is because more than anything else, I identify as a gamer. And that is, quite possibly, one of the worst environments for women of any background to be in, in first world countries. I don't like that discrimination based on gender is so prevalent in that culture, or in any other culture that anyone finds themselves in. Which I beleive is the driving purpose behind third-wave feminism.


I'm an avid gamer myself. Usually gaming is alright, just gaming communities have a lot of assholes. Assholes also tend to be bigoted racists, sexists, and overall jerkfaces. Just how it is. I wouldn't say it's discriminatory though, just gaming in general is as toxic as the internet. Some games, some sites, and some communities are always going to be worse than others. Not going to say it's without problem, but it's probably more of an issue of anonymity and 'assholery' than it is sexism.

Also happy to hear you have only experienced the wellness of feminism.
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Posted 8/12/15 , edited 8/12/15

PrinceJudar wrote:

Advocating gender equality. Kind of the original purpose.
the egalitarians here are saying different.
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Posted 8/12/15
One of my exes is a partner in a gaming company she founded, haven't heard her say anything bad about gaming or computer sciences that she was in. I know Zoe Quinn from another forum. She was well known for doing things that would get you permabanned from this forum.

You know how you can't give out social media info on the con livefeeds? She's the type of person that rule is in place for.
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Posted 8/12/15

sundin13 wrote:


megahobbit wrote:


sundin13 wrote:

Out of curiosity, may I ask you how you came to the conclusion that gaming is "one of the worst environments for women of any background to be in", because I simply don't see that as being anywhere close to true...


http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gamergate


The media's treatment of Gamergate was one of the things I was referring to earlier when I said that they allowed one side to dominate the conversation and propagandize the issue to demonize the other side. The misrepresentation of Gamergate as being an "anti-women" movement is ridiculous, especially when taking into consideration the large amount of women and minorities in the movement and GG's participation with groups like the Fine Young Capitalists. If Gamergate is the key evidence that gaming is somehow "one of the worst environments for women", than I say that point is essentially moot.


No. Just no. Dude I was around 4chan I saw the threads that spawned gamergate. They were rife with misogyny and the movement spawned to harass Zoe Quinn. The Fine Young Capitalists were there so GG could pretend there "not sexist". And while I do know minorities and women were in gamergate that does not make the movement "not sexist". GG harassed multiple women over the course of time and railed against journalists who spoke out about sexism in gaming.
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Posted 8/12/15

sundin13 wrote:


megahobbit wrote:


sundin13 wrote:

Out of curiosity, may I ask you how you came to the conclusion that gaming is "one of the worst environments for women of any background to be in", because I simply don't see that as being anywhere close to true...


http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gamergate


The media's treatment of Gamergate was one of the things I was referring to earlier when I said that they allowed one side to dominate the conversation and propagandize the issue to demonize the other side. The misrepresentation of Gamergate as being an "anti-women" movement is ridiculous, especially when taking into consideration the large amount of women and minorities in the movement and GG's participation with groups like the Fine Young Capitalists. If Gamergate is the key evidence that gaming is somehow "one of the worst environments for women", than I say that point is essentially moot.



While I will admit that seeing Gamergate unfold was a big factor in me being more vocal about the discrimination of women in gaming, I was referring more towards that feminine traits, such as a higher pitched voice or more effeminate manner of speech, and biological differences, such as secondary sex characteristics are used as targets for people to insult in online games. That being a women in an online gaming community is enough for ridicule, not skill or competitiveness or anything, just gender.

There is also a huge problem with women being discriminated against in the gaming industry aswell, making it even harder for women who love games and gaming to be able to create games for themselves.


That is the environment I was referring to when I was talking about the treatment of women in gaming and why I think third-wave feminism is important.
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Posted 8/12/15

FlyinDumpling wrote:
the egalitarians here are saying different.


I don't expect people to know what traditional feminism is all about, it's not exactly very well vocalized these days. Kind of my job to inform and spread the word that there is a type of feminism that is essentially with the same goal as egalitarianism and that all feminism is not of one shade, just quieter.

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Posted 8/12/15 , edited 8/13/15

megahobbit wrote:

No. Just no. Dude I was around 4chan I saw the threads that spawned gamergate. They were rife with misogyny and the movement spawned to harass Zoe Quinn. The Fine Young Capitalists were there so GG could pretend there "not sexist". And while I do know minorities and women were in gamergate that does not make the movement "not sexist". GG harassed multiple women over the course of time and railed against journalists who spoke out about sexism in gaming.


Zoe Quinn is a well known doxxer and IRL harasser of people.
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Posted 8/12/15 , edited 8/12/15

RK_1234 wrote:

Zoe Quinn is a well known doxxer and IRL harasser of people.


Man that statement was backed by some pretty convincing sources wasn't it.

...Oh wait.
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Posted 8/12/15

PrinceJudar wrote:


FlyinDumpling wrote:
the egalitarians here are saying different.


I don't expect people to know what traditional feminism is all about, it's not exactly very well vocalized these days. Kind of my job to inform and spread the word that there is a type of feminism that is essentially with the same goal as egalitarianism and that all feminism is not of one shade, just quieter.
I find it oddly questionable that many egalitarians only raise the topic when there is a feminist they want to make fun of. I don't see how this is any different...and for some reason the conversation almost always ends up about video games.
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Posted 8/12/15 , edited 8/12/15

Crylliac wrote:

While I will admit that seeing Gamergate unfold was a big factor in me being more vocal about the discrimination of women in gaming, I was referring more towards that feminine traits, such as a higher pitched voice or more effeminate manner of speech, and biological differences, such as secondary sex characteristics are used as targets for people to insult in online games. That being a women in an online gaming community is enough for ridicule, not skill or competitiveness or anything, just gender.

There is also a huge problem with women being discriminated against in the gaming industry aswell, making it even harder for women who love games and gaming to be able to create games for themselves.


That is the environment I was referring to when I was talking about the treatment of women in gaming and why I think third-wave feminism is important.


What's wrong with feminine traits or being feminine?

I haven't seen an issue in women indie game developing. There's are great indie games out there created by females!

FlyinDumpling wrote:

I find it oddly questionable that many egalitarians only raise the topic when there is a feminist they want to make fun of. I don't see how this is any different...and for some reason the conversation almost always ends up about video games.


Eh nah, I think it's cool they're for gender equality.

Ehhh I'm surprised the video game thing came up again but I'mma just roll with it.
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Posted 8/12/15

megahobbit wrote:


RK_1234 wrote:

Zoe Quinn is a well known doxxer and IRL harasser of people.


Man that statement was backed by some pretty convincing sources wasn't it.

...Oh wait.


Pony up the cash yourself and buy yourself an account there.
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