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Post Reply What are your thoughts on traditional feminism? Modern feminism?
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Posted 8/12/15
I guess there is good feminism and bad feminism.


I don't think I need to describe it since I'm sure everyone knows what I mean by this.
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Posted 8/12/15

PrinceJudar wrote:


Crylliac wrote:

While I will admit that seeing Gamergate unfold was a big factor in me being more vocal about the discrimination of women in gaming, I was referring more towards that feminine traits, such as a higher pitched voice or more effeminate manner of speech, and biological differences, such as secondary sex characteristics are used as targets for people to insult in online games. That being a women in an online gaming community is enough for ridicule, not skill or competitiveness or anything, just gender.

There is also a huge problem with women being discriminated against in the gaming industry aswell, making it even harder for women who love games and gaming to be able to create games for themselves.


That is the environment I was referring to when I was talking about the treatment of women in gaming and why I think third-wave feminism is important.


What's wrong with feminine traits or being feminine?



I haven't seen an issue in women indie game developing. There's are great indie games out there created by females!


That is exactly my point. There is nothing wrong with being feminine or possessing feminine traits. They should not be singled out as the only reason to insult someone.

I know, and I am so glad that the indie market has expanded as much as it has. I love indie games, much more than mainstream games, however, the mainstream gaming industry, and the universities and colleges and what-have-you that teach game programming or creation have really negative reactions to women entering the industry.

Quick google article search for some articles:

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/the-womens-blog-with-jane-martinson/2013/jun/12/games-industry-problem-female-protagonists
http://www.cracked.com/article_22230_5-ugly-realities-being-woman-in-gaming-industry.html (I do like Cracked articles. Funny stuff )

http://www.smh.com.au/national/game-on-but-not-for-women-20140410-36erh.html
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Posted 8/12/15 , edited 8/12/15

PrinceJudar wrote:


Crylliac wrote:

While I will admit that seeing Gamergate unfold was a big factor in me being more vocal about the discrimination of women in gaming, I was referring more towards that feminine traits, such as a higher pitched voice or more effeminate manner of speech, and biological differences, such as secondary sex characteristics are used as targets for people to insult in online games. That being a women in an online gaming community is enough for ridicule, not skill or competitiveness or anything, just gender.

There is also a huge problem with women being discriminated against in the gaming industry aswell, making it even harder for women who love games and gaming to be able to create games for themselves.


That is the environment I was referring to when I was talking about the treatment of women in gaming and why I think third-wave feminism is important.


What's wrong with feminine traits or being feminine?

I haven't seen an issue in women indie game developing. There's are great indie games out there created by females!

FlyinDumpling wrote:

I find it oddly questionable that many egalitarians only raise the topic when there is a feminist they want to make fun of. I don't see how this is any different...and for some reason the conversation almost always ends up about video games.


Eh nah, I think it's cool they're for gender equality.

Ehhh I'm surprised the video game thing came up again but I'mma just roll with it.


Even in male dominated Japan (and manga/anime) fields there are many well respected female powerhouses. Pretty sure the best music in anime all comes from one woman and one of the most loved/hated animes was female character designed.

For every Spielberg, there is an Uwe Boll though. Some people get mad when you call shit, well, shit.

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Posted 8/12/15
I tend to ignore feminism as a whole since it seems silly to me to cater to one group when everyone could kill more birds with less stones by treating everyone, race/gender/whatever, the same.

Though I tend to favor traditional feminism over that... whatever they want to call that nowadays. Anything radical is a bad thing.

I don't think anyone is going to disagree that everyone should have access to equal rights and such, be it women or not.
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Posted 8/12/15 , edited 8/12/15

Crylliac wrote:

That is exactly my point. There is nothing wrong with being feminine or possessing feminine traits. They should not be singled out as the only reason to insult someone.

I know, and I am so glad that the indie market has expanded as much as it has. I love indie games, much more than mainstream games, however, the mainstream gaming industry, and the universities and colleges and what-have-you that teach game programming or creation have really negative reactions to women entering the industry.


They aren't though, people find whatever reason they can to insult someone if they're in the mood to do it. It's the online culture of anonymity.

Speaking as someone legitimately a female in the STEM fields (I'm a computer hardware engineer) Guys drool over having women in their classes much more than they are opposed. Most of them, are quite desperate you'll find. I work in an office and I am literally the only woman in the building. I get jokes all the time about being female, but we just just laugh about it. These negative reactions about it are so minor. Most women don't go into STEM fields because they have no bloody interest in it. They're male dominated, but most of them are impressed your female more than anything else. Trust me. I live it.

As for the female protagonists thing, the market gets what market wants. Honestly, women aren't typically a part of the 'core' gaming fields. Most of them like Zoomba and Nintendo games. There's plenty of wonderful female protagonists anyway. If there's not a market for otherwise then whatever. It's not a big deal. We play the games we like and the money speaks for us. Ain't a problem.
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Posted 8/12/15
I think part of feminism's problem is that for the big, concrete, correctable issues, it's mission accomplished. I think some feminists are trying find new nails to hammer down.
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Posted 8/12/15

dotsforlife wrote:

I tend to ignore feminism as a whole since it seems silly to me to cater to one group when everyone could kill more birds with less stones by treating everyone, race/gender/whatever, the same.

Though I tend to favor traditional feminism over that... whatever they want to call that nowadays. Anything radical is a bad thing.

I don't think anyone is going to disagree that everyone should have access to equal rights and such, be it women or not.


Glad you favor traditional feminism. I should clarify the first post that traditional feminism is about gender equality, female or otherwise. Hah!



papagolfwhiskey wrote:

I think part of feminism's problem is that for the big, concrete, correctable issues, it's mission accomplished. I think some feminists are trying find new nails to hammer down.


And punching nails through places they shouldn't go and causing unneeded damage. Yeah, there's problem, certainly and it's unfortunate.

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Posted 8/12/15 , edited 8/12/15

PrinceJudar wrote:


dotsforlife wrote:

I tend to ignore feminism as a whole since it seems silly to me to cater to one group when everyone could kill more birds with less stones by treating everyone, race/gender/whatever, the same.

Though I tend to favor traditional feminism over that... whatever they want to call that nowadays. Anything radical is a bad thing.

I don't think anyone is going to disagree that everyone should have access to equal rights and such, be it women or not.


Glad you favor traditional feminism. I should clarify the first post that traditional feminism is about gender equality, female or otherwise. Hah!


Yeah I get what you mean. I've had discussions (well, they start off as discussions at least) with both types of feminists. I have to say, based on my personal experience the modern ones tend to be far less intelligent and have questionable motives at best.
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Posted 8/12/15

PrinceJudar wrote:


Crylliac wrote:

That is exactly my point. There is nothing wrong with being feminine or possessing feminine traits. They should not be singled out as the only reason to insult someone.

I know, and I am so glad that the indie market has expanded as much as it has. I love indie games, much more than mainstream games, however, the mainstream gaming industry, and the universities and colleges and what-have-you that teach game programming or creation have really negative reactions to women entering the industry.


They aren't though, people find whatever reason they can to insult someone if they're in the mood to do it. It's the online culture of anonymity.

Speaking as someone legitimately a female in the STEM fields (I'm a computer hardware engineer) Guys drool over having women in their classes much more than they are opposed. Most of them, are quite desperate you'll find. I work in an office and I am literally the only woman in the building. I get jokes time about being female, but we just just laugh about it. These negative reactions about it are so minor. Most women don't go into STEM fields because they have no bloody interest in it. They're male dominated, but most of them are impressed your female more than anything else. Trust me. I live it.

As for the female protagonists thing, the market gets what market wants. Honestly, women aren't typically a part of the 'core' gaming fields. Most of them like Zoomba and Nintendo games. There's plenty of wonderful female protagonists anyway. If there's not a market for otherwise then whatever. It's not a big deal. We play the games we like and the money speaks for us. Ain't a problem.



Ok, first up, that is awesome. That sounds like an awesome field to work in, and if you are kicking that much ass in it then I have nothing but respect for you.

With that said though, I don't personally like the environment that you described. Even though I am sure that you have absolutely no problems with you co-workers, that may not be the case for everyone who makes it into the industry. You are still being singled out because of your gender, even if it is more of a positive reaction for you than a negative one, not everyone would see it as such. My understanding of third-wave feminism is allowing people to do what they want to do without their gender being in any way a factor in that undertaking.

And yes, I understand at this point it is purely arguing opinions. If you are a women working in a male-dominated field than you are doing the right thing for feminism, traditional or third-wave. Anything beyond that is just a clash of ideals and pretty unimportant to the actual mission-statement of feminism.
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Posted 8/12/15 , edited 8/12/15

megahobbit wrote:

No. Just no. Dude I was around 4chan I saw the threads that spawned gamergate. They were rife with misogyny and the movement spawned to harass Zoe Quinn. The Fine Young Capitalists were there so GG could pretend there "not sexist". And while I do know minorities and women were in gamergate that does not make the movement "not sexist". GG harassed multiple women over the course of time and railed against journalists who spoke out about sexism in gaming.


Pretty sure we've had this conversation before. Of course 4chan is going to spew insults...thats what they do. Otherwise, of course there was harassment from both sides aimed at both males and females. It isn't possible to police a hashtag (although, there were numerous individuals with GG who tried). However, the statistics (from a feminist group) show that only a tiny minority of tweets to any of the relevant individuals even said anything negative, not to mention harassing. As for railing against journalists, there was a huge amount of bullshit that went down and was exposed during that whole fiasco and the extremely biased reporting was obviously going to get called out by a movement focused on journalistic ethics.

A small minority was given nearly 100% of the attention by the feminists and the media to paint GG as a whole as "anti-women", when from the beginning, GG has made it clear that its mission statement was Journalistic ethics, and the majority was never given the opportunity to say their piece in any space which could reach individuals outside the movement.

PS: While this thread shouldn't become about GG, Zoe Quinn is known to have participated in the doxxing and harassment of multiple individuals...


Crylliac wrote:

While I will admit that seeing Gamergate unfold was a big factor in me being more vocal about the discrimination of women in gaming, I was referring more towards that feminine traits, such as a higher pitched voice or more effeminate manner of speech, and biological differences, such as secondary sex characteristics are used as targets for people to insult in online games. That being a women in an online gaming community is enough for ridicule, not skill or competitiveness or anything, just gender.

There is also a huge problem with women being discriminated against in the gaming industry aswell, making it even harder for women who love games and gaming to be able to create games for themselves.

That is the environment I was referring to when I was talking about the treatment of women in gaming and why I think third-wave feminism is important.


Like PrinceJudar said above, online trolling is fairly universal, and trolls will throw whatever they can at you to get under your skin. It isn't really an issue pertaining to sexism. Additionally, all of the communities that I have been involved in have been extremely inclusive and probably the worst I've seen is some awkward flirting.

As for women being discriminated against in the industry, I don't think that is the case. I have spoken with, or heard from numerous women within the gaming industry, discussing these issues who say that it really isn't a problem.
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Posted 8/12/15 , edited 8/12/15

Crylliac wrote:

Ok, first up, that is awesome. That sounds like an awesome field to work in, and if you are kicking that much ass in it then I have nothing but respect for you.

With that said though, I don't personally like the environment that you described. Even though I am sure that you have absolutely no problems with you co-workers, that may not be the case for everyone who makes it into the industry. You are still being singled out because of your gender, even if it is more of a positive reaction for you than a negative one, not everyone would see it as such. My understanding of third-wave feminism is allowing people to do what they want to do without their gender being in any way a factor in that undertaking.

And yes, I understand at this point it is purely arguing opinions. If you are a women working in a male-dominated field than you are doing the right thing for feminism, traditional or third-wave. Anything beyond that is just a clash of ideals and pretty unimportant to the actual mission-statement of feminism.


They're harmless jokes. We like to blame everything that goes wrong on Paul but he's okay, I promise. There's a problem with people being overly sensitive. I'm female and I'm okay with being female.

"What color do you think?"
"Blue?"
"You're a woman why are you bad at this? Dammit."
"Idk, get someone more feminine."
"LEO GET OVER HERE I NEED HELP WITH COLORS!"

I'm okay with the gender thing, really, they treat me more than fine. Can't be a sissy lol, everyone gets joked about in one form or another. I'm not singled out though at all. They make fun of everyone equally, you just gotta be chill.

I realize not everyone has the best work environment but I will tell you most women do in these fields. They want to hire us so damn bad. I tell yah.
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Posted 8/12/15

sundin13 wrote:


megahobbit wrote:

No. Just no. Dude I was around 4chan I saw the threads that spawned gamergate. They were rife with misogyny and the movement spawned to harass Zoe Quinn. The Fine Young Capitalists were there so GG could pretend there "not sexist". And while I do know minorities and women were in gamergate that does not make the movement "not sexist". GG harassed multiple women over the course of time and railed against journalists who spoke out about sexism in gaming.


Pretty sure we've had this conversation before. Of course 4chan is going to spew insults...thats what they do. Otherwise, of course there was harassment from both sides aimed at both males and females. It isn't possible to police a hashtag (although, there were numerous individuals with GG who tried). However, the statistics (from a feminist group) show that only a tiny minority of tweets to any of the relevant individuals even said anything negative, not to mention harassing. As for railing against journalists, there was a huge amount of bullshit that went down and was exposed during that whole fiasco and the extremely biased reporting was obviously going to get called out by a movement focused on journalistic ethics.

A small minority was given nearly 100% of the attention by the feminists and the media to paint GG as a whole as "anti-women", when from the beginning, GG has made it clear that its mission statement was Journalistic ethics, and the majority was never given the opportunity to say their piece in any space which could reach individuals outside the movement.

PS: While this thread shouldn't become about GG, Zoe Quinn is known to have participated in the doxxing and harassment of multiple individuals, including one of the Fine Young Capitalists and multiple other individuals...


Crylliac wrote:

While I will admit that seeing Gamergate unfold was a big factor in me being more vocal about the discrimination of women in gaming, I was referring more towards that feminine traits, such as a higher pitched voice or more effeminate manner of speech, and biological differences, such as secondary sex characteristics are used as targets for people to insult in online games. That being a women in an online gaming community is enough for ridicule, not skill or competitiveness or anything, just gender.

There is also a huge problem with women being discriminated against in the gaming industry aswell, making it even harder for women who love games and gaming to be able to create games for themselves.

That is the environment I was referring to when I was talking about the treatment of women in gaming and why I think third-wave feminism is important.


Like PrinceJudar said above, online trolling is fairly universal, and trolls will throw whatever they can at you to get under your skin. It isn't really an issue pertaining to sexism. Additionally, all of the communities that I have been involved in have been extremely inclusive and probably the worst I've seen is some awkward flirting.

As for women being discriminated against in the industry, I don't think that is the case. I have spoken with, or heard from numerous women within the gaming industry, discussing these issues who say that it really isn't a problem.




Yeah, online trolling is very prevalent, but the point I was making is that feminine traits get singled out as "OK to mock" whereas masculine traits, such as deep voices or more aggressive manners of speech aren't. That is where sexism issue takes place there.

Things are getting better for women in the gaming industry, as far as I can tell, but it still isn't as good as it should be. I understand that progress is being made, which is a great thing,and the more people you meet that don't have nay issues with the industry is indicative of the positive changes that are happening.

Also, on a personal note, I am quite jealous of you being able to find decent gaming communities. I must have really bad luck when it comes to meeting people while gaming >.<
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Posted 8/12/15 , edited 8/12/15

Crylliac wrote

Yeah, online trolling is very prevalent, but the point I was making is that feminine traits get singled out as "OK to mock" whereas masculine traits, such as deep voices or more aggressive manners of speech aren't. That is where sexism issue takes place there.

Things are getting better for women in the gaming industry, as far as I can tell, but it still isn't as good as it should be. I understand that progress is being made, which is a great thing,and the more people you meet that don't have nay issues with the industry is indicative of the positive changes that are happening.

Also, on a personal note, I am quite jealous of you being able to find decent gaming communities. I must have really bad luck when it comes to meeting people while gaming >.<


Nope I've been in some really shitty gaming communities. Got cyber bullied, then became a forum admin and ruled over them.



*cough

True story though.

People are assholes in general, they just find anything to single out. The online community in general is unkind. Just how it is, yah just toughen up and move on. I realize feminine traits are what assholes pick out sometimes, but it's not like some guys don't find more reasons to be nice to feminine females either. It goes both ways. Don't tell me you have not experienced a "Aw can I do anything for you? ^^" guy in a game. So many of those darn ones.

There's this thing called attraction and it can make some men completely stupid.
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Posted 8/12/15 , edited 8/12/15

Crylliac wrote:

Yeah, online trolling is very prevalent, but the point I was making is that feminine traits get singled out as "OK to mock" whereas masculine traits, such as deep voices or more aggressive manners of speech aren't. That is where sexism issue takes place there.

Things are getting better for women in the gaming industry, as far as I can tell, but it still isn't as good as it should be. I understand that progress is being made, which is a great thing,and the more people you meet that don't have nay issues with the industry is indicative of the positive changes that are happening.

Also, on a personal note, I am quite jealous of you being able to find decent gaming communities. I must have really bad luck when it comes to meeting people while gaming >.<


You aren't going to get under anyone's skin by saying "hey man, you sound like a man! Ha!". Largely, the "insults" are calling someone something they aren't. You tell a girl that she sounds like a man and she probably wont be jumping for joy. Its a fairly normal thing (although, if some guy is acting over competitive, he will get his fair share of shit). EDIT: As for the trolling of women, it is unfortunate, but the socially awkward nature of many of the individuals in the community mixed with the fact that women are a fairly extreme minority certainly makes them the center of attention, which can often be annoying or problematic.

Otherwise, I don't really disagree with you that progress needs to be made in some areas, I just don't think that feminism will do much to move in the right direction. For the most part, these problems are more general issues in the first place, and second of all, in this situation, feminism is like a sledgehammer when a chisel is needed. The problem of gender imbalances will likely be filled to some extent with time as more women enter the industry and the problem of harassment doesn't really have much in the way of a solution. However, feminism tends to do more to widen the rift and inflame tensions than actually move anything forwards and make it better, and when the rhetoric of "gamers hate women" gets passed around so often, I can only imagine that it discourages women from getting into gaming which can only be a bad thing.

You also have all the other baggage that feminism carries along with it beyond just this scenario...
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Posted 8/12/15

PrinceJudar wrote:


Crylliac wrote:

Ok, first up, that is awesome. That sounds like an awesome field to work in, and if you are kicking that much ass in it then I have nothing but respect for you.

With that said though, I don't personally like the environment that you described. Even though I am sure that you have absolutely no problems with you co-workers, that may not be the case for everyone who makes it into the industry. You are still being singled out because of your gender, even if it is more of a positive reaction for you than a negative one, not everyone would see it as such. My understanding of third-wave feminism is allowing people to do what they want to do without their gender being in any way a factor in that undertaking.

And yes, I understand at this point it is purely arguing opinions. If you are a women working in a male-dominated field than you are doing the right thing for feminism, traditional or third-wave. Anything beyond that is just a clash of ideals and pretty unimportant to the actual mission-statement of feminism.


They're harmless jokes. We like to blame everything that goes wrong on Paul but he's okay, I promise. There's a problem with people being overly sensitive. I'm female and I'm okay with being female.

"What color do you think?"
"Blue?"
"You're a woman why are you bad at this? Dammit."
"Idk, get someone more feminine."
"LEO GET OVER HERE I NEED HELP WITH COLORS!"

I'm okay with the gender thing, really, they treat me more than fine. Can't be a sissy lol, everyone gets joked about in one form or another. I'm not singled out though at all. They make fun of everyone equally, you just gotta be chill.

I realize not everyone has the best work environment but I will tell you most women do in these fields. They want to hire us so damn bad. I tell yah.


I'm pretty happy with that response, really. Going any deeper into the rabbit hole will result in a discussion about gender roles and and the gender binary, and I very much doubt that that was the intention of this discussion.

I do think, however, that we may be talking about the same version of feminism with different terms. My understand of third-wave feminism is pretty close to how you described traditional feminism. To quote that (awesome) Idea Channel video I linked eariler, "Third-wave feminism tried to account for women of all backgrounds, ethnicity, sexual orientations and gender"

That sound close to what you believe traditional feminism is about?
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