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Post Reply Is abortion murder?
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21 / M
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Posted 8/17/15
Oh, for fuck's sake.
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31 / M
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Posted 8/17/15
no
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Posted 8/17/15

Bavalt wrote:

No. A fetus isn't yet conscious. It has no way of knowing what's going to happen to it, so it isn't inconvenienced if it's aborted. It's the same as ending life support for someone whose brain no longer functions. Life in and of itself isn't worth much, if you ask me: sentience is what matters. The only value a fetus has is its worth in the eyes of those who know of it.



You know how criminal law bends toward innocent till proven guilty, and how any doubt can trump a guilty charge? It's the same here. There are reports that you can see a fetus react to being stabbed. Most people can't enter the minds of fetuses, yet assume that fetuses can't feel or aren't aware of anything, and thus can be aborted. If we aren't sure that fetuses aren't sentient, then abortion shouldn't be condoned yet.
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Posted 8/17/15 , edited 8/17/15

lambofgenesis wrote:

You know how criminal law bends toward innocent till proven guilty, and how any doubt can trump a guilty charge? It's the same here. There are reports that you can see a fetus react to being stabbed. Most people can't enter the minds of fetuses, yet assume that fetuses can't feel or aren't aware of anything, and thus can be aborted. If we aren't sure that fetuses aren't sentient, then abortion shouldn't be condoned yet.


Just gotta point out that a physical movement or reaction is not necessarily a sign of sentience or awareness. A lot of it has to do with reflex. And even if a creature has a large, developed brain and is alive and healthy, the lack of awareness and ability to process information and form memories in the womb and shortly after birth are well-documented. It's the reason we don't remember being fetuses or being born. It is very hard to disprove anything. We can't readily prove that there isn't a teacup floating around somewhere in another galaxy, for instance, but mere inability or difficulty of proof should not deter us from acting to remedy an immediate problem. It is to prevent an objectively slight speculative problem from manifesting itself into a certain and severe actual consequence. It is unfortunate but we must weigh many factors in order to maintain working order, and I see several controversial arguments today in which one side will subscribe to this "idealistic" view which only takes a few factors into account. Although morality is important and is what keeps us from tearing each other apart, we need to balance it with cold, hard, mechanical logic, so I don't consider "that's just wrong" to be a reason. I need some questions answered first.

In a perfect world, kids would be born without defects, parents would be responsible and financially stable, there would be no rape, and there would be no abortion, but reality is very ugly. We kill smart animals very purposefully for food out of necessity and have hunted for fun for thousands of years. And we already know for a fact that they suffer when they are shot and cut. I for one do not subscribe to the view of humans being more special than other creatures. We survive and struggle to live and step on others because we are selfish, and so is every other species of animal. To be selfless is to go against our instinct, to be heroic, and that is what makes heroism special. It's not something to force people into doing. I don't believe there's any actual moral high ground in the most common abortion arguments, though.

Okay, let's say someone gets pregnant, is panicked and upset, and aborts because she's 16.
"Oh damn, that's terrible. I'm sorry for your misfortune and I can totally understand why you would do that. I wish you a speedy recovery."

Let's say she carries it to term despite her fears.
"Wow, that's pretty amazing. I wouldn't be able to do that if I was in your shoes. I hope the kid grows up strong, smart, and healthy."

Berating her in the first scenario is the thing she least needs. In fact, as my biomedical ethics professor pointed out from personal experience, many of the anti-abortion picketers outside her clinic got abortions there. In one or two weeks, they were back out there. Everyone thinks their case is special.

In the second term, telling her that she should have aborted because of a defect or because she's poor is also the last thing she needs. The fetus became a baby and then became a kid. It's too late to talk about prevention and abortion. Just have to deal with the present situation as best as possible.

As for the what-ifs? You can't know and have no way of knowing. It's like those people who ask me: "What if you were aborted?" Well, I wouldn't know, so what of it? I was born 3 months prematurely when my biological mother fell down a flight of stairs and I was supposed to die. I don't remember experiencing or feeling anything even though I was in ICU for 6 months, the same amount of time I spent in the womb. My earliest memories were from when I was two years old. The only reason I can tell myself I wish I had died or that I am grateful I am alive are because I'm alive now. It bears no relevance to what I would have felt back then because I felt nothing.
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25 / M / California
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Posted 8/17/15
I'm just going to throw some knowledge and facts into this thread. Not sharing my opinion but meh. I got popcorn and some gasoline.

A fetus by definition is a developing organism. The functions of a fetus fall under the category of a parasitic organism. You guys can look that definition up. I was taught this in medical training courses too btw. And dont throw "a fetus is not harmful to the mother." Yeah... the fetus changing the whole structure of the mother to fit it's needs can become harmful.

CNS or central nervous system develops around week 5. Then more synapse connectivity, ANS, etc. ANS stands for autonomus nervous system. Breathing, perestalisis, blinking; then leads to thumb sucking/kicking.

Near the end of gestation. The Cerberal Cortex begins development. From what Ive read, studied, and been told. The CC is what makes humans... human.

Life has a broad range in which it it can be defined into. If you believe it's murder, it's murder. If you dont, you dont. The human race doesnt know what life is or how to describe it. Until humanity can define what life is, then we will know if it's murder or not.
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Posted 8/17/15 , edited 8/17/15

Krazylegz26 wrote:

I'm just going to throw some knowledge and facts into this thread. Not sharing my opinion but meh. I got popcorn and some gasoline.

A fetus by definition is a developing organism. The functions of a fetus fall under the category of a parasitic organism. You guys can look that definition up. I was taught this in medical training courses too btw. And dont throw "a fetus is not harmful to the mother." Yeah... the fetus changing the whole structure of the mother to fit it's needs can become harmful.

CNS or central nervous system develops around week 5. Then more synapse connectivity, ANS, etc. ANS stands for autonomus nervous system. Breathing, perestalisis, blinking; then leads to thumb sucking/kicking.

Near the end of gestation. The Cerberal Cortex begins development. From what Ive read, studied, and been told. The CC is what makes humans... human.

Life has a broad range in which it it can be defined into. If you believe it's murder, it's murder. If you dont, you dont. The human race doesnt know what life is or how to describe it. Until humanity can define what life is, then we will know if it's murder or not.


Terminology. By definition an organism is life, it's not matter of defining life. Biology does have a definition for it. Again, the debate is 'personhood' or whether it's a living 'being'. You can argue the CC is what makes a fetus a living human being. No one has defined when one has 'personhood' or 'being' and that is the crux of the debate. It's a matter of opinion only at this point.

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Posted 8/17/15
How ever on the subject of abortion i'm all for it if we have passed the sustainable numbers of humans that can be supported on a patch of land, given the fact it is no longer possible to support the excess amount people that would have starved anyways.
and it's not just the people we have to take into consideration and more about the animals and plant that also sustain us, If the animals cannot be sustained to keep the people alive than the plants would also fail to sustain both kinds of life simply because you would have to kill more animals than you could sustain them and the fact that those animals can die to natural forces and the plants are the same due to overconsumption and the amount of land given to sustain.

is simply because there are no alternatives to meat and plants and the amount of land that should be given to prioritize either one without giving something up in return.

you are left with few choices to be had look at china for example they have laws to limit the births of children to 1, because they face the problem of overcrowding.
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20 / M / Australia
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Posted 8/17/15
Yes, to some extent. I still agree with it though, no use having a baby born to someone who doesn't want it, or put through the foster system.
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M / Hessen, Germany
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Posted 8/17/15
No, as long as the fetus hasn't developed a central nervous system. In the same way as chopping down a tree isn't murder.
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22 / M
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Posted 8/17/15
Abortion has been going on for thousands of years. At least now it's regulated and a largely safe procedure with little to no risks to mother. If we criminalize it or just make it impossible for women to get a proper abortion, they're still going to find a way to abort and we'll end up back to where we were 50 some odd years ago.
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Posted 8/17/15 , edited 8/17/15
No.

I could say stuff like, what if you got raped, or if you live in a crappy environment to raise a child in, but that's pretty much already been said. I don't understand how people are comparing abortion to stabbing a baby.
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24 / M / USA
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Posted 8/17/15
I'm just going to say that China's means of limiting population really shouldn't be condoned by anyone. The international community has expressed that its in violation of human rights. It's quite disturbing to see it supported in any fashion. Yes overcrowding is an issue, but supporting the one child policy as a solution...that's different.
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Posted 8/17/15
First of all, just because some people believe something is wrong doesn't make it worthy of legal action, especially if a large portion of those people are working off of a religious belief. Church and state, people.

That being said, I've always found the common desire of pro-lifers (ban abortion except for rape, incest, and if the mother's in danger) isn't really supported by their argument. (life begins at conception) If life begins at conception, and abortion is tantamount to murder, as they contend, then how can they justify murder just because of how the baby was conceived? Even in a case where the mother's life is in danger, you're "killing" one life to possibly save another that isn't definitely going to die.

There's really only 2 logically sound ways to look at this:

A. Life begins at a certain point (at conception or later), therefore all abortions past that point are unethical in any scenario, unless the mother is 100% going to die. All abortions before that point are 100% okay, regardless of scenario (for pro-lifers who believe life = conception, this part obv doesn't apply)
B. A fetus isn't fully human, but is still alive. In other words, it has value as a possible life, but it's not on the same level as a 'human' yet.

Only the really hardcore prolifers support banning abortion with no exceptions, but that's the logical endpoint of their contention that life begins at conception. The majority opinion within that group is logically flawed, which IMO hurts their credibility.

P.S. As an Orthodox Jew, I can attest that, while this is a point of serious debate, most rabbis agree that abortions should be reviewed on a case-by-case basis, and there's generally no issue in cases where having the baby would cause psychological or emotional trauma (which often extends even to, say, teenage pregnancies, so it's generally pretty liberal) much less physical.
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Posted 8/17/15
I consider abortion immoral and inhumane and I believe its just as wrong to destroy a fetus as it is to destroy puppies and kittens. with the full mapping of the human gnome we are at the point where parents can choose what their child will look like, chose if they are gay or not. no doctor should ever be allowed to preform an abortion procedure except by Cesarian Section under penalty of a permanently removed license. however a woman does have a right to her own body so if she takes something or something is slipped to her it should not count as murder and quite frankly a woman should never be charged for having any form of miscarriage/abortion.

If you had a choice of having a gay child or not would you or would you terminate?
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Posted 8/17/15

nlshowalter wrote:

[...]

If you had a choice of having a gay child or not would you or would you terminate?


What kind of question is that? What's the problem with a gay child?
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