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Post Reply Best villain ever?
Bavalt 
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Posted 8/19/15
I'd argue against Kaiki being a villain. He acts purely out of self-interest, rather than enmity or spite, which means, as we've seen, that he can just as easily end up an ally as an obstacle. I agree that he's awesome, though.

My vote for best villain would have to be Monster's Johan Liebert. (Tenma, incidentally, is also a strong contender for best hero. Monster just does a really good job presenting heroism and villainy in a realistic and interesting way.)
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Posted 8/19/15 , edited 8/19/15
Judar!


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Posted 8/19/15


He's too cute and adorable to be a villain.
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Posted 8/19/15

Bavalt wrote:

I'd argue against Kaiki being a villain. He acts purely out of self-interest, rather than enmity or spite, which means, as we've seen, that he can just as easily end up an ally as an obstacle. I agree that he's awesome, though.

My vote for best villain would have to be Monster's Johan Liebert. (Tenma, incidentally, is also a strong contender for best hero. Monster just does a really good job presenting heroism and villainy in a realistic and interesting way.)


Many "villains" act the same way. They are motivated by selfishness, not necessarily spite. If every criminal's backstory and rationale were revealed, it would be very hard to criticize many people of being villains since most people do what they do for what they perceive to be a decent reason based on their experiences and values. Kaiki seemed like an evil dude in the earlier parts of Nisemonogatari but it was easier to like him once Monogatari Season 2 came around.

I casually slap on the "villain" label when the antagonist is screwed over by a protagonist. It's a villain from the protagonist's POV.

Hm, never heard of Monster. Maybe I'll take a look.
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Posted 8/19/15 , edited 8/19/15

Nalaniel wrote:

He's too cute and adorable to be a villain.




I can't argue with that.
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Posted 8/19/15

Bavalt wrote:

I'd argue against Kaiki being a villain. He acts purely out of self-interest, rather than enmity or spite, which means, as we've seen, that he can just as easily end up an ally as an obstacle. I agree that he's awesome, though.

My vote for best villain would have to be Monster's Johan Liebert. (Tenma, incidentally, is also a strong contender for best hero. Monster just does a really good job presenting heroism and villainy in a realistic and interesting way.)


Well said on both points!

Johan for best villain!

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Posted 8/19/15

PrinceJudar wrote:


Nalaniel wrote:

He's too cute and adorable to be a villain.




I can't argue with that.


After readingthe manga, I would have to say "Sinbad".
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Posted 8/19/15 , edited 8/19/15
Bavalt 
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Posted 8/19/15

Morbidhanson wrote:


Bavalt wrote:

I'd argue against Kaiki being a villain. He acts purely out of self-interest, rather than enmity or spite, which means, as we've seen, that he can just as easily end up an ally as an obstacle. I agree that he's awesome, though.

My vote for best villain would have to be Monster's Johan Liebert. (Tenma, incidentally, is also a strong contender for best hero. Monster just does a really good job presenting heroism and villainy in a realistic and interesting way.)


Many "villains" act the same way. They are motivated by selfishness, not necessarily spite. If every criminal's backstory and rationale were revealed, it would be very hard to criticize many people of being villains since most people do what they do for what they perceive to be a decent reason based on their experiences and values. Kaiki seemed like an evil dude in the earlier parts of Nisemonogatari but it was easier to like him once Monogatari Season 2 came around.

I casually slap on the "villain" label when the antagonist is screwed over by a protagonist. It's a villain from the protagonist's POV.

Hm, never heard of Monster. Maybe I'll take a look.


I might not have expressed my point in the most precise way. It would be better, probably, to say that Kaiki's actions, when they are villainous, are incidentally so. He isn't the type to plan much farther ahead than his current job, so he has no relevant motivation consistent enough to pit him against Araragi and friends regularly, nor, as mentioned, any sense of malice towards them. I agree that nearly any well-written villain will be sympathetic to some degree, but I'd argue that what makes a villain a villain is the consistency with which the rest of the cast is inclined to oppose them, and the degree of that opposition. Kaiki takes advantage of people, but we've seen him back off when confronted about it, more or less unphased. He does bad things, but he doesn't want a fight, and if it looks like there's one brewing that he can't handle, he'll just drop it. I see him as a weaselly opportunist, certainly, but I feel as though if he were to appear again, it would be equally likely for him to be collaborating with, opposing, or just plain uninvolved with the main cast: whatever nets him the most money or potential money. He's by no means a good person, but in terms of plot, I don't feel he's villainous consistently or persistently enough to be called a real villain, because his motivation has nothing to do with the rest of the cast. He just wears the mask when it suits him. I'd call him a villain in the moral sense, but personally, I don't see him as one in the literary sense. Kagenui, for example, fits the bill far better, as she does have an overarching motivation that brings her into direct contention with Koyomi, and even when her arc is concluded, she has by no means let the Araragis off the hook, establishing her as a lingering threat, even when she helps Koyomi later. One could argue that she's not morally villainous, but she's much more of a villain as far as her involvement in the story goes.
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Posted 8/19/15
Yea, I go with Johan Liebert as well.
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Posted 8/19/15 , edited 8/19/15

Bavalt wrote:


I might not have expressed my point in the most precise way. It would be better, probably, to say that Kaiki's actions, when they are villainous, are incidentally so. He isn't the type to plan much farther ahead than his current job, so he has no relevant motivation consistent enough to pit him against Araragi and friends regularly, nor, as mentioned, any sense of malice towards them. I agree that nearly any well-written villain will be sympathetic to some degree, but I'd argue that what makes a villain a villain is the consistency with which the rest of the cast is inclined to oppose them, and the degree of that opposition. Kaiki takes advantage of people, but we've seen him back off when confronted about it, more or less unphased. He does bad things, but he doesn't want a fight, and if it looks like there's one brewing that he can't handle, he'll just drop it. I see him as a weaselly opportunist, certainly, but I feel as though if he were to appear again, it would be equally likely for him to be collaborating with, opposing, or just plain uninvolved with the main cast: whatever nets him the most money or potential money. He's by no means a good person, but in terms of plot, I don't feel he's villainous consistently or persistently enough to be called a real villain, because his motivation has nothing to do with the rest of the cast. He just wears the mask when it suits him. I'd call him a villain in the moral sense, but personally, I don't see him as one in the literary sense. Kagenui, for example, fits the bill far better, as she does have an overarching motivation that brings her into direct contention with Koyomi, and even when her arc is concluded, she has by no means let the Araragis off the hook, establishing her as a lingering threat, even when she helps Koyomi later. One could argue that she's not morally villainous, but she's much more of a villain as far as her involvement in the story goes.


Yeah, I have to agree with your assessment. I really like almost every character in the Monogatari series, which is something very rare. Even the hardhearted Kagenui tried to help Koyomi with the Tadatsuru problem (although this is probably just because she was told to). She didn't actually do too much, since Ononoki was the one actually with Koyomi, but I like how multifaceted the characters are.

The only ones I don't really like so far are Izuko Gaen and Oshino Ougi. Gaen comes off as snobby and threatening, and Ougi is just creepy and surrounded by bad events...and you can't really tell if Ougi is a boy or a girl.

I'm looking forward to seeing more of Tadatsuru and of the vampire hunters. Episode, Dramaturgie, Guillotine Cutter. Hoping for more of Kaiki as well, and I want to see him, Oshino, and Kagenui work on something together.
Posted 8/19/15
Me
Posted 8/19/15

Darth Vader is no. 1. He is the epitome of villain.
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Posted 8/19/15

Animeaddict04 wrote:

His magnificence himself Kars


キタ━━━━(゚∀゚)━━━━!!

that was the shit
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Posted 8/19/15 , edited 8/19/15
JOJO Part 4 Spoiler!

Kira Yoshikage. He kicked the shit out of a kid and then gave him a handkerchief and then, if memory serves me correctly, he tried to make little Koichi eat the handkerchief.
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