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Post Reply Student loans debacle:borrow more, promote nonpayment
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Posted 8/24/15

VZ68 wrote:

Well, seeing my tax dollars at work in this thread has pretty much left me to wonder why we even have public education in the first place.


I saw your argument about postsecondary educators' salary. However, when I examined the median pay for postsecondary educators I came up with a far lower figure than the one you presented ($68,790 as of 2012's median, which is the latest the Dept. of Labour is currently reporting on its career profile). Of course, such a value cannot be taken at its face since pay varies depending upon the institution type and subject being taught. The upper bound was for professors of law, who typically took in a median salary of $99,950. The lower bound was for professors of criminal justice and law enforcement at $58,040. The advantage of medians is that they're less susceptible to the influence of extrema in data sets than averages, and so the fact that some law professors rake in $100,000 plus and some criminal justice professors take in less than $58,000 is less impacting here. The general case is that professors are making decent wages, sure enough. But they don't seem to be the factor which is driving tuition rates to grow so quickly. Rather, this seems to be attributable to factors such as slashes in public education funding at the state level requiring adjustments in price by schools to make up for the difference, competition between research and athletics programmes (which is why schools never seem to be done being constructed), and the profit motive merely doing what it does whether schools' overhead has actually appreciably risen or not.
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Posted 8/24/15
What's amazing is that the student loan people had no problem finding me. Usually, if you default on a student loan you'll never see a tax return until it's paid. This is why this country should pay the tuition for it's citizens that desire an education and quit pandering to the paranoid imperialistic right that only wants to support the military industrial complex to further their own portfolios.
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Posted 8/24/15

BlueOni wrote:


VZ68 wrote:

Well, seeing my tax dollars at work in this thread has pretty much left me to wonder why we even have public education in the first place.


I saw your argument about postsecondary educators' salary. However, when I examined the median pay for postsecondary educators I came up with a far lower figure than the one you presented ($68,790 as of 2012's median, which is the latest the Dept. of Labour is currently reporting on its career profile). Of course, such a value cannot be taken at its face since pay varies depending upon the institution type and subject being taught. The upper bound was for professors of law, who typically took in a median salary of $99,950. The lower bound was for professors of criminal justice and law enforcement at $58,040. The advantage of medians is that they're less susceptible to the influence of extrema in data sets than averages, and so the fact that some law professors rake in $100,000 plus and some criminal justice professors take in less than $58,000 is less impacting here. The general case is that professors are making decent wages, sure enough. But they don't seem to be the factor which is driving tuition rates to grow so quickly. Rather, this seems to be attributable to factors such as slashes in public education funding at the state level requiring adjustments in price by schools to make up for the difference, competition between research and athletics programmes (which is why schools never seem to be done being constructed), and the profit motive merely doing what it does whether schools' overhead has actually appreciably risen or not.


I take it your labor site is showing something different?

Try pulling data directly from public records.

Position Base pay Overtime / Callback pay Other pay Benefits Total pay & benefits Jurisdiction Year

RES PROF ATMOS SCI $141,381.31 $0.00 $0.00 $26,729.20 $168,110.51 XXX 2013

ASSOC PROF (SOM) $981,475.04 $0.00 $0.00 $42,745.34 $1,024,220.38 University Of XXX 2014

PROF (SOM)/AD,CA-S/CHR, SURG $1,213,467.52 $0.00 $0.00 $59,307.84 $1,272,775.36 University Of XXX 2014

PROFESSOR (SOM) $607,590.77 $0.00 $0.00 $42,745.34 $650,336.11 University Of XXX 2014

ASSISTANT SHERIFF $104,178.16 $0.00 $311,239.68 $52,111.79 $467,529.63 XXX Metro Police Department 2013

ENGLISH - PROFESSOR $313,222.02 $0.00 $0.00 $12,894.41 $326,116.43 University Of XXX 2011

TEACHER $84,397.38 $0.00 $32,792.00 $28,653.52 $145,842.90 XXX Charter School 2014

TEACHER - XXX $106,335.42 $0.00 $0.00 $32,476.70 $138,812.12 XXX County School District 2014

XXX ELEMENTARY SCHOOL - TEACHER $96,643.30 $0.00 $0.00 $32,730.91 $129,374.21 XXX County School District 2011
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Posted 8/24/15

pirththee wrote:

What's amazing is that the student loan people had no problem finding me. Usually, if you default on a student loan you'll never see a tax return until it's paid. This is why this country should pay the tuition for it's citizens that desire an education and quit pandering to the paranoid imperialistic right that only wants to support the military industrial complex to further their own portfolios.


What's particularly bizarre about the US tertiary education funding scheme is that it assumes that the economy will always be healthy enough to support robust employment figures for graduates without interruption or delay, and that wages earned by graduates will be sufficient to maintain a quality standard of living while covering one's debts. Economic reality is not so kind, and frankly US optimism about the fruits of hard work and dedication is deep to the point of being counterproductive. These are good values to encourage, but recessions are a reality of economic cycles and they can set upon nations unexpectedly and quickly. There will be graduating classes which have nowhere to go after graduation, and a handful of brief months and the option of forebearance for a handful more is an ineffectual way of addressing that problem with the system.
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Posted 8/24/15 , edited 8/24/15

VZ68 wrote:

I take it your labor site is showing something different?

Try pulling data directly from public records.

Position Base pay Overtime / Callback pay Other pay Benefits Total pay & benefits Jurisdiction Year

RES PROF ATMOS SCI $141,381.31 $0.00 $0.00 $26,729.20 $168,110.51 XXX 2013

ASSOC PROF (SOM) $981,475.04 $0.00 $0.00 $42,745.34 $1,024,220.38 University Of XXX 2014

PROF (SOM)/AD,CA-S/CHR, SURG $1,213,467.52 $0.00 $0.00 $59,307.84 $1,272,775.36 University Of XXX 2014

PROFESSOR (SOM) $607,590.77 $0.00 $0.00 $42,745.34 $650,336.11 University Of XXX 2014

ASSISTANT SHERIFF $104,178.16 $0.00 $311,239.68 $52,111.79 $467,529.63 XXX Metro Police Department 2013

ENGLISH - PROFESSOR $313,222.02 $0.00 $0.00 $12,894.41 $326,116.43 University Of XXX 2011

TEACHER $84,397.38 $0.00 $32,792.00 $28,653.52 $145,842.90 XXX Charter School 2014

TEACHER - XXX $106,335.42 $0.00 $0.00 $32,476.70 $138,812.12 XXX County School District 2014

XXX ELEMENTARY SCHOOL - TEACHER $96,643.30 $0.00 $0.00 $32,730.91 $129,374.21 XXX County School District 2011


Primary school teachers. Base pay. $96,643.30. Which county? Now.

Emoticon added for tone.
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Posted 8/24/15

BlueOni wrote:


VZ68 wrote:

I take it your labor site is showing something different?

Try pulling data directly from public records.

Position Base pay Overtime / Callback pay Other pay Benefits Total pay & benefits Jurisdiction Year

RES PROF ATMOS SCI $141,381.31 $0.00 $0.00 $26,729.20 $168,110.51 XXX 2013

ASSOC PROF (SOM) $981,475.04 $0.00 $0.00 $42,745.34 $1,024,220.38 University Of XXX 2014

PROF (SOM)/AD,CA-S/CHR, SURG $1,213,467.52 $0.00 $0.00 $59,307.84 $1,272,775.36 University Of XXX 2014

PROFESSOR (SOM) $607,590.77 $0.00 $0.00 $42,745.34 $650,336.11 University Of XXX 2014

ASSISTANT SHERIFF $104,178.16 $0.00 $311,239.68 $52,111.79 $467,529.63 XXX Metro Police Department 2013

ENGLISH - PROFESSOR $313,222.02 $0.00 $0.00 $12,894.41 $326,116.43 University Of XXX 2011

TEACHER $84,397.38 $0.00 $32,792.00 $28,653.52 $145,842.90 XXX Charter School 2014

TEACHER - XXX $106,335.42 $0.00 $0.00 $32,476.70 $138,812.12 XXX County School District 2014

XXX ELEMENTARY SCHOOL - TEACHER $96,643.30 $0.00 $0.00 $32,730.91 $129,374.21 XXX County School District 2011


Primary school teachers. Base pay. $96,643.30. Which county? Now.

Emoticon added for tone.


That's their base pay. I stopped looking after 30 pages of data for a teacher that was making under 100K a year (include bennies) I can'tt give out too much info others a mod will flip about public records, you know...
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Posted 8/24/15 , edited 8/24/15

VZ68 wrote:

That's their base pay. I stopped looking after 30 pages of data for a teacher that was making under 100K a year (include bennies) I can'tt give out too much info others a mod will flip about public records, you know...


Well, let me show you where I'm coming from here. I went to the BLS website and examined the data reported for kindergarten and elementary school teachers, and that's showing a median pay of $53,090. Further examination under the pay tab shows the upper 10% in that profession taking a median pay of only $78,230, while the lower 10% actually took in substantially less ($32,450). Now, obviously the amount a primary teacher receives is going to vary based upon school district budgets (which are in large part a product of local property tax rates and receipts), and of course there is to consider the agreements between the districts and whatever unions are in place. Still, the amount you present is mind blowingly high, and I wonder if it's statistically representative?

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/kindergarten-and-elementary-school-teachers.htm#tab-5
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Posted 8/24/15

BlueOni wrote:


pirththee wrote:

What's amazing is that the student loan people had no problem finding me. Usually, if you default on a student loan you'll never see a tax return until it's paid. This is why this country should pay the tuition for it's citizens that desire an education and quit pandering to the paranoid imperialistic right that only wants to support the military industrial complex to further their own portfolios.


What's particularly bizarre about the US tertiary education funding scheme is that it assumes that the economy will always be healthy enough to support robust employment figures for graduates without interruption or delay, and that wages earned by graduates will be sufficient to maintain a quality standard of living while covering one's debts. Economic reality is not so kind, and frankly US optimism about the fruits of hard work and dedication is deep to the point of being counterproductive. These are good values to encourage, but recessions are a reality of economic cycles and they can set upon nations unexpectedly and quickly. There will be graduating classes which have nowhere to go after graduation, and a handful of brief months and the option of forebearance for a handful more is an ineffectual way of addressing that problem with the system.


Boom bust cycles are always the way of capitalism, especially when the private financial world is loosely regulated and allegedly becomes to important to fail.We should provide the tools for those that want to succeed without a burden of debt.It furthers the interests of all those concerned.
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Posted 8/24/15

BlueOni wrote:


VZ68 wrote:

That's their base pay. I stopped looking after 30 pages of data for a teacher that was making under 100K a year (include bennies) I can'tt give out too much info others a mod will flip about public records, you know...


Well, let me show you where I'm coming from here. I went to the BLS website and examined the data reported for kindergarten and elementary school teachers, and that's showing a median pay of $53,090. Further examination under the pay tab shows the upper 10% in that profession taking a median pay of only $78,230, while the lower 10% actually took in substantially less ($32,450). Now, obviously the amount a primary teacher receives is going to vary based upon school district budgets (which are in large part a product of local property tax rates and receipts), and of course there is to consider the agreements between the districts and whatever unions are in place. Still, the amount you present is mind blowingly high, and I wonder if it's statistically representative?

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/kindergarten-and-elementary-school-teachers.htm#tab-5


Might be a state thing, also, the BLS is kinda a joke and is so far off on the wages in my field that it's not even possible for them to have looked into it correctly.

What also really drives down teacher income on something like this is subs. You have a bunch of people also not working full time,

So you have two people pulling in 100k each, three pulling under 4K so you get a mess like an avg of 42k.
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Posted 8/24/15 , edited 8/24/15

VZ68 wrote:

Might be a state thing, also, the BLS is kinda a joke and is so far off on the wages in my field that it's not even possible for them to have looked into it correctly.

What also really drives down teacher income on something like this is subs. You have a bunch of people also not working full time,

So you have two people pulling in 100k each, three pulling under 4K so you get a mess like an avg of 42k.


Like I said before, that's why they're using medians instead of averages. A median is something which can be used to account for stilted data sets. For instance:

1, 3, 5, 200

The average of that data set is FUBAR, completely useless unless you get rid of that 200 (which is clearly an outlier and doesn't represent the data accurately). The median, however, doesn't care that 200 is divorced from the rest nearly as much as an average would. The median of that data set is the average of 3 and 5 (4), which is actually a reasonable description of that data set since 200 is clearly an oddball. The average, meanwhile, is a head slappingly wrong 52. In other words, medians specifically exist to account for the sort of effect you're describing while seeking central tendency. For your example data set:

4,000; 4,000; 4,000; 100,000; 100,000

The median of that set is 4,000, which is actually reasonably (although not perfectly) representative since most people therein are pulling $4,000. The average of that data set, meanwhile, is just as you say: $42,000 and change. That's very clearly wrong, and in no way represents the data set's central tendency accurately. Averages as measures of central tendency bear precisely the limitation you're pointing to, but medians exist specifically to address that problem. The fact that the upper and lower 10% in the data sets are reported and the data is further sorted based upon factors such as the subjects professors are teaching suggests to me that the BLS wasn't incompetent at all in its description of tertiary educators' salaries, though I don't doubt the accuracy of the sources you're using to obtain individual salary figures either.


pirththee wrote:

Boom bust cycles are always the way of capitalism, especially when the private financial world is loosely regulated and allegedly becomes to important to fail.We should provide the tools for those that want to succeed without a burden of debt.It furthers the interests of all those concerned.


I agree completely. The positive externalities generated by tertiary education, the opportunity costs entailed in expecting secondary students to run about seeking scholarships and grants, and the problem of instability justify at the very least consideration of tuition free programmes. Now, in order to keep costs from exploding one would have to be attentive to factors such as academic performance prior to admission to a tuition free programme, but honestly the effort seems to me a fairly straightforward net gain.
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Posted 8/24/15

BlueOni wrote:


VZ68 wrote:

Might be a state thing, also, the BLS is kinda a joke and is so far off on the wages in my field that it's not even possible for them to have looked into it correctly.

What also really drives down teacher income on something like this is subs. You have a bunch of people also not working full time,

So you have two people pulling in 100k each, three pulling under 4K so you get a mess like an avg of 42k.


Like I said before, that's why they're using medians instead of averages. A median is something which can be used to account for stilted data sets. For instance:

1, 3, 5, 200

The average of that data set is FUBAR, completely useless unless you get rid of that 200 (which is clearly an outlier and doesn't represent the data accurately). The median, however, doesn't care that 200 is divorced from the rest nearly as much as an average would. The median of that data set is the average of 3 and 5 (4), which is actually a reasonable description of that data set since 200 is clearly an oddball. The average, meanwhile, is a head slappingly wrong 52. In other words, medians specifically exist to account for the sort of effect you're describing while seeking central tendency. For your example data set:

4,000; 4,000; 4,000; 100,000; 100,000

The median of that set is 4,000, which is actually reasonably (although not perfectly) representative since most people therein are pulling $4,000. The average of that data set, meanwhile, is just as you say: $42,000 and change. That's very clearly wrong, and in no way represents the data set's central tendency accurately. Averages as measures of central tendency bear precisely the limitation you're pointing to, but medians exist specifically to address that problem. The fact that the upper and lower 10% in the data sets are reported and the data is further sorted based upon factors such as the subjects professors are teaching suggests to me that the BLS wasn't incompetent at all in its description of tertiary educators' salaries, though I don't doubt the accuracy of the sources you're using to obtain individual salary figures either.


You would think they would do this. But if you look in industries that aren't hourly, they just took the yearly income and did a 52 week 40 hour divide to get hourly pay. Which doesn't work if the work week is 70 to 112 hours long. Also they never adjusted the teaching jobs down to a 9/12 but floated them as a 12/12 job.
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Posted 8/24/15

VZ68 wrote:

You would think they would do this. But if you look in industries that aren't hourly, they just took the yearly income and did a 52 week 40 hour divide to get hourly pay. Which doesn't work if the work week is 70 to 112 hours long. Also they never adjusted the teaching jobs down to a 9/12 but floated them as a 12/12 job.


Examination of the hourly rates of a salaried employee is a method for determining their relative work:pay ratio, not a direct measure of the net amount being spent on them. When salaried professors complain that their hourly rates are too low what they mean is that they're working harder and longer than they're being paid for, that the salary amount doesn't reflect the amount of work they actually do. Which is essentially your own argument, but in reverse. You're putting forward that professors are paid disproportionately highly relative to the amount of work they actually do, which is (whether they, you, or neither proves correct) a separate discussion from the one we've been having so far. The median net cost of a professor, regardless of the hours they've been working since they're salaried, is what the BLS was attempting to describe with the figures I referenced. Assuming professors (adjunct or tenured, either one) are paid on a salaried basis rather than an hourly one (which is what I've been assuming) the matter of hourly wage is somewhat separated from what I was really getting at even if it is an important consideration for determining whether professors and/or universities are getting good values for their money/time.
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Posted 8/24/15
With all the money provided by student loans, Colleges and Universities have no incentive to cut costs. Many students too take courses that cause them to go deeply in debt ...courses like "Feminist Studies" which provide little to no remuneration. Also, taking from some people to send other people's children to college is immoral and wrong.
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Posted 8/24/15
How about just not waste your time and money going to university? University is a scam. Read the following article on why university is a scam:

http://www.hangthebankers.com/why-university-is-a-scam-the-college-bubble/

Protip: Don't go to university if the skill you are trying to acquire can be learned on the Internet for free. Only go to university if the skill you are trying to acquire can only be learned in university.
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Posted 8/24/15

biscuitnote wrote:

This is disturbing news. This system encourages people to borrow more student debt and then promote non payment. People who should pay back get to walk away from their debt and likely never understand how to pay back loans. Then banks can encourage them to borrow more.

Americans have become infants, babies, children who want more but can't control themselves.


http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/data-mine/2014/09/10/how-taxpayers-foot-the-tuition-bill-for-thousands-of-grad-students


This is why student loan debt will cause hyperinflation. These dumbass students burrow too much student loan debt. This bad debt (in other words, debt that can't be paid back) will cause the Federal Reserve to print an excessive amount of money. Thereby causing hyperinflation.
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