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Post Reply Self Destruction?
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Posted 8/25/15
Which is not to say that simply blaming God for everything is a healthy habit to get into regardless, or that there isn't a point to be made in blaming the people directly administering that firm principally. Still, a being with that laundry list of characteristics pretty much never gets off the hook completely when something bad happens since He was and is always in a position to prevent or resolve problems.
Posted 8/25/15

BlueOni wrote:


Ejanss wrote:

Okay, let's make the question a little clearer: It sounds like you've got least twenty people to blame, why pick on Him?? That's like getting a bad meal in a restaurant, and instead of complaining to the chef or headwaiter, kicking the doorman on the way out...Like he had anything to do with it??


Actually, it isn't.

Last I checked doormen weren't omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, all-loving, and timeless, so your analogy doesn't actually hold up. The most important assumption in your comparison is that the doorman is for whatever reason unable to affect whether bad food is served, meaning he ought to be absolved of any blame for the quality of the meal. Clearly a being with the long list of characteristics above could never claim to be unable to affect any situation in whatever way it chose, so the inaction on the part of this imaginary divine doorman was deliberate.

Since we have no problem blaming ordinary people for failing to act to prevent or resolve problems they knew about and could've prevented or resolved without difficulty or inconvenience (seriously, why wouldn't we?) there is no problem holding this imaginary divine doorman responsible for the low quality of the food. At the very least he easily could've warned the manager, the server, the chef, the consumer preparing to eat the food, or pretty much anyone else, and then offered a clear course of action that this alternate actor ought to follow to resolve the problem if needed.


God, being a parental figure, takes the same stance as your mom: If you've got a mess, YOU be the grownup and clean it up, because who started it anyway?...But if anyone needs a hug, the door's always open.

Athies complain that prayer is basically "Please change the laws of the universe to suit me"...And then they throw a big tantrum and call Him a meanie when he doesn't.
Maybe what He provides is that the realization that the world can be a stinky place, but we don't have to act stinky ourselves to stay in it. Maybe we deal with things without big self-destructive outlets or tantrums at the world, and in the process, maybe help other people with it. (Like say, if other people burned by the company got together.)
And the fact that we learn that doing and inner strength, and not pity-parties or tantrums, is what makes the world a better place, that's when we realize we've finally passed the age of...(oh, well, you probably see this punchline coming by now.)


If that's what your faith provides you, the will to act to reduce suffering, then well enough. Still, the problem of evil is a legitimate question about the purported characteristics of God given the nature of the world around us which has been debated for thousands of years. You refer to a pair of proposed solutions thereto, and they're solutions which are not without issues. There are, therefore, people who will not be convinced by your appeals to a broader plan to improve us as beings by allowing suffering to be inflicted upon us (in fact some will argue that an omnipotent and omniscient being could just as readily find a way to spur personal and spiritual growth which need not involve suffering even if it did firmly believe that some results ought to be earned), and there are those who will not be convinced that the world is the way it is because of the results of a single run of one social experiment with no particular reason why the penalties for failure ought to be so severe and widespread.


I have wondered why an Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent and all-benevolent deity would allow so much suffering and injustice in the world, and from believers I've heard such things as why their God and Savior allows evil and suffering is to test human beings,and to temper them as if they were iron in a blacksmith's forge. That evil is perhaps necessary for people to oppose to become righteous. Of course, some believers say its an unknowable mystery, of others , that can't be explained until we move on to whatever awaits us after we die? Alas, we can't put god on trial anymore than slaying him with an arrow from the tower of Babel. I wish we had more answers.:)

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Posted 8/25/15

BlueOni wrote:

Which is not to say that simply blaming God for everything is a healthy habit to get into regardless, or that there isn't a point to be made in blaming the people directly administering that firm principally. Still, a being with that laundry list of characteristics pretty much never gets off the hook completely when something bad happens since He was and is always in a position to prevent or resolve problems.


"God could end War if he had to!"....Uhh, like hows, exactly?
Like borrowing Light's example, and causing every member of ISIS to drop dead of a heart attack tomorrow? And what, pray tell, would that teach us?--That human beings are powerless in their own environment, and not to argue with some moral absolute if they want to stay healthy and know what's good for them?
That's the one most people unfortunately believe in, good thing for us they're wrong.
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Posted 8/25/15 , edited 8/25/15

kat9999 wrote:

I have wondered why an Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent and all-benevolent deity would allow so much suffering and injustice in the world, and from believers I've heard such things as why their God and Savior allows evil and suffering is to test human beings,and to temper them as if they were iron in a blacksmith's forge. That evil is perhaps necessary for people to oppose to become righteous. Of course, some believers say its an unknowable mystery, of others , that can't be explained until we move on to whatever awaits us after we die? Alas, we can't put god on trial anymore than slaying him with an arrow from the tower of Babel. I wish we had more answers.:)


Another response is that there is no problem of evil because God and humankind operate on separate moral systems. It doesn't make any more sense to me than having different standards of right and wrong based upon peoples' relative intellectual or physical capacities, because there's no particular reason killing and jealousy ought to be sin for us and salvation for an omnipotent. Then again, I'm not a philosopher. I'm simply expressing the results of a lifetime of thinking about and reading about these subjects on my own initiative with whatever resources I have available.


Ejanss wrote:

"God could end War if he had to!"....Uhh, like hows, exactly?
Like borrowing Light's example, and causing every member of ISIS to drop dead of a heart attack tomorrow? And what, pray tell, would that teach us?--That human beings are powerless in their own environment, and not to argue with some moral absolute if they want to stay healthy and know what's good for them?
That's the one most people unfortunately believe in, good thing for us they're wrong.


A starting point might be to not have made a scarce amount of resources, particularly land, water, and useful minerals, while deciding the sort of environment humankind would live in. Since people often fight their wars in order to gain access to some resource they don't have enough of at home that would eliminate one of the primary reasons people fight. He might also reside among us and state clearly what both His will and the intentions behind it are directly. That would undermine the supposed legitimacy of claims made by groups such as ISIL that their actions comport therewith, and therefore would remove the most crucial part of staging a religious war: convincing others that God thinks what you say He does.
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Posted 8/26/15
I've done it. Over. And over. And over. It's seemingly neverending it's the same shit every time. Keep saying I'm not going to implode or explode, I feel myself progressing after my last implosion or explosion, a while passes, and my episodes worsen, and eventually I self destruct again. Welcome to Mental Hell, pop. me.
Posted 8/26/15
I come with a label:

CAUTION: Highly self-destructive. Handle with care.
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Posted 8/26/15 , edited 8/26/15
ugh, an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent god can't exist in a world with evil.
because if he wanted to get rid of evil and could, he would.

And if you're going to call god evil for that, you should call every fiction writer that's ever created a plot where a person suffers evil.
You can blame him for existence existing, if you're not atheist, so everything, good and bad, stems from him.
If you want to draw moral meaning you have to base it on ethics.

And what's with everybody and hedonism anyways.
This is a tiring topic.
Also, try to avoid being self-destructive, it isn't good for you.
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Posted 8/26/15 , edited 8/26/15

BlueOni wrote:


kat9999 wrote:

I have wondered why an Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent and all-benevolent deity would allow so much suffering and injustice in the world, and from believers I've heard such things as why their God and Savior allows evil and suffering is to test human beings,and to temper them as if they were iron in a blacksmith's forge. That evil is perhaps necessary for people to oppose to become righteous. Of course, some believers say its an unknowable mystery, of others , that can't be explained until we move on to whatever awaits us after we die? Alas, we can't put god on trial anymore than slaying him with an arrow from the tower of Babel. I wish we had more answers.:)


Another response is that there is no problem of evil because God and humankind operate on separate moral systems. It doesn't make any more sense to me than having different standards of right and wrong based upon peoples' relative intellectual or physical capacities, because there's no particular reason killing and jealousy ought to be sin for us and salvation for an omnipotent.


Another response would be "Since when did it become HIS problem, when He wasn't the greedy idiot who started it, braino?"

(Here's a fun thing to try at work: Trash your desk, and then tell the boss it's his duty and responsibility to clean it up, because he should be responsible for all his employees, and he's just slacking off if he lets these things happen at all. What could go wrong with that reasoning? )


BlueOni wrote:


Ejanss wrote:

"God could end War if he had to!"....Uhh, like hows, exactly?
Like borrowing Light's example, and causing every member of ISIS to drop dead of a heart attack tomorrow? And what, pray tell, would that teach us?--That human beings are powerless in their own environment, and not to argue with some moral absolute if they want to stay healthy and know what's good for them?
That's the one most people unfortunately believe in, good thing for us they're wrong.


A starting point might be to not have made a scarce amount of resources, particularly land, water, and useful minerals, while deciding the sort of environment humankind would live in. Since people often fight their wars in order to gain access to some resource they don't have enough of at home that would eliminate one of the primary reasons people fight.


So, He could bring peace, and help us reach an enlightened state, by spoiling us rotten. Ooo-kay. You don't have kids, by any chance, I'm guessing?


He might also reside among us and state clearly what both His will and the intentions behind it are directly..


Seem to recollect, He did that already, didn't He?--Think I read that somewhere. Anyway, He's pretty much got that one covered, one down.

(If you're talking "full-time", though, nahh: I mean, that's fine for some of the small volcano islands, but He's more the "No statues" type who doesn't bother with public image and personal appearances, and just focuses on the communiques. Otherwise, things get all bogged down with personal issues, like they did with the Romans and Babylonians.
C'mon, let's be honest, if He has to do it twice, that's not really His problem, now, is it?)
Posted 8/26/15 , edited 8/26/15
I'm self destructive but not for the common reasons. I don't take a knife and cut myself...food is my self destruction, my drug and my perdition.


I have a hate-love relationship with food and serious self esteem issues. I was anorexic in my prepubescent years because I had a fear of being fat...I often blamed my sister for my actions because she bullied me a lot when I was a kid, she would call me "fatass" and all that stuff so I grew up hating my image... and I grew up envying hers because she was naturally skinny thanks to her fast metabolism and I had a slow metabolism so it was easy for me to get fat by eating the same food she ate. I was never fat according to people, but in my eyes I was a whale.

After some years of battling with this, I realized that I didn't have anyone to blame but myself. I stopped caring about looking "good" and started caring about my health. I'm not anorexic anymore because I eat....however, when I'm sad or anxious or just feeling like I don't care, I overeat stuff I shouldn't eat and after eating I get so depressed that I purge myself in any way I can. I didn't know that this was another kind of disorder until last year....so I'm back to square one I have seen the consequences of my actions and it used to make me even more depressed but right now I just don't care. I'm tired.

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Posted 8/26/15

Ssomething wrote:

I'm self destructive but not for the common reasons. I don't take a knife and cut myself...food is my self destruction, my drug and my perdition.


I have a hate-love relationship with food and serious self esteem issues. I was anorexic in my prepubescent years because I had a fear of being fat...I often blamed my sister for my actions because she bullied me a lot when I was a kid, she would call me "fatass" and all that stuff so I grew up hating my image... and I grew up envying hers because she was naturally skinny thanks to her fast metabolism and I had a slow metabolism so it was easy for me to get fat by eating the same food she ate. I was never fat according to people, but in my eyes I was a whale.

After some years of battling with this, I realized that I didn't have anyone to blame but myself. I stopped caring about looking "good" and started caring about my health. I'm not anorexic anymore because I eat....however, when I'm sad or anxious or just feeling like I don't care, I overeat stuff I shouldn't eat and after eating I get so depressed that I purge myself in any way I can. I didn't know that this was another kind of disorder until last year....so I'm back to square one I have seen the consequences of my actions and it used to make me even more depressed but right now I just don't care. I'm tired.



I really hope you can get better. I also had issues with body image. It might not help much but try leaving sticky notes with positive messages on mirrors and especially around the bathroom. It seems silly, but it can help. Don't give up on getting better yet.
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Posted 8/26/15 , edited 8/26/15
Ejanss, forget it. Never mind.


Nobodyofimportance wrote:

ugh, an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent god can't exist in a world with evil.
because if he wanted to get rid of evil and could, he would.

And if you're going to call god evil for that, you should call every fiction writer that's ever created a plot where a person suffers evil.
You can blame him for existence existing, if you're not atheist, so everything, good and bad, stems from him.
If you want to draw moral meaning you have to base it on ethics.

And what's with everybody and hedonism anyways.
This is a tiring topic.
Also, try to avoid being self-destructive, it isn't good for you.


All I was doing was providing a rationale for why someone would turn their back on God and blame him for their suffering. The problem of evil is exactly what you stated at first. I'm also not really saying God's evil, only that if we assume its existence and omnipotence and omniscience in the context of a world with evil God can be held accountable for evil's existence and therefore the characteristic of omnibenevolence is rendered suspect. Not evil, necessarily, just responsible. And I don't think anyone would say an author isn't responsible for the nature of the events in their works.

As for everything good and bad stemming from God if we assume Him, that's sort of what I meant. Really, I'm not out to get God. I just see why He might be blamed for bad things, and rebuff efforts to remove credit from Him when He's assumed to be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent.

It is a tiresome topic, and honestly I'm finished with it as well. It's becoming progressively irrelevant to the thread, and so I'm capping my part of it.
Posted 8/27/15

PrinceJudar wrote:


I really hope you can get better. I also had issues with body image. It might not help much but try leaving sticky notes with positive messages on mirrors and especially around the bathroom. It seems silly, but it can help. Don't give up on getting better yet.


Thank you! I used to do that, I even made posters to hang on the walls so I could keep myself motivated. My life is full of ups and downs but people like you make me feel better. I really appreciate it.
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Posted 8/27/15


Just keep packing it in. One of these days it'll go kaboom.
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Posted 8/27/15
Well, yeah, I've tried to off myself multiple times.. but here I am, still breathing. I always think it's stupid before the knife touches my skin.
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