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Post Reply US Gun Control
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24 / M / USA
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Posted 8/28/15

sundin13 wrote:

While suicide is an independent issue, I wonder if there is a correlation between suicidal thoughts and impulses and homicidal thoughts and impulses. While this is again largely conjecture because the research that I have found relating the two seems to be fairly shaky, it does seem that a history of depression at least plays a factor in murder-suicide cases. That was the point I was sort of trying to get at. If someone is mentally unstable enough to commit suicide, I think that implies flaws in our systems of detecting individuals who are mentally unstable (although it isn't possible for such systems to be perfect).


There are definitely flaws. I think a waiting period is at least effective in deterring impulsive gun purchases, as annoying as people may find it.
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27 / M / Ark-La-Tex
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Posted 8/28/15
Almost one third of the world's mass shootings occur in the U.S. Other Western nations have figured it out. We're supposed to be better than the rest of the world at everything, so there's no reason we can't figure it out too.
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24 / M / USA
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Posted 8/28/15 , edited 8/28/15

geauxtigers1989 wrote:

Almost one third of the world's mass shootings occur in the U.S. Other Western nations have figured it out. We're supposed to be better than the rest of the world at everything, so there's no reason we can't figure it out too.


The US has most of the guns as well though. Mass shootings doesn't say much. It's also not based per capita. Though I'm curious on the world's mass homicide occurrences, I imagine Europe may have it worse with terrorism being as it is over there.

Aha! Found it:

http://static5.businessinsider.com/image/55831cda69bedde87600549e-1200-2534/oecd-homicide-rates.png

Still up there, but I find it a better measure.
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46 / M / Between yesterday...
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Posted 8/28/15

billytheboy wrote:


gvblackmoon wrote:


Well, there comes another disagrence i have. I do not beleive free speech should be regulated either. I do understand what you are saying, but my interpretation of the second amendment states that the people have the right to bear arms, militia or not. I'm typing on my POS phone and dont feel like attemlting copy and paste, but i could bring in some Jefferson, Madison, Hamilton, and a man who's name escapes me that all say ALL men have the fundamental right to bear arms period (as in no service required) and that their idea of the militia was every able bodied man not enlisted in regular military service, there forr we are all the militia.


You are missing the first part selective reading on your part and I will point it out again "A well regulated Militia" this is what Jefferson and Madison came up with when they wrote the Virgina State Constitution which is why so much of that document is copied into the US Constitution since it is easier to copy work you have already done.

The person you are thinking about is Richard Henry Lee who opposed the Constitution and was in favor of strong states rights. I will point out he lost his argument then and when the debate was settled with the Civil War. The argument of states rights is mute and the federal government can exercise regulation over the states.

If we are all militia I want background check on each member and I want to know each member is sworn to the same task. The common defense of the Constitution and the people of this country. I took that oath are you willing to take it as well?
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24 / M / USA
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Posted 8/28/15
Holy hell Mexico though....
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46 / M / Between yesterday...
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Posted 8/28/15 , edited 8/28/15

J-POP187 wrote:


gvblackmoon
What I laid out does this cleanly and makes it so that if you don't own a firearm you don't have to be part of the militia if you do guess what man up and do your duty for God and country.


So you would be up for forcing people into service just on the bases of gun ownership. The military of the US is already made up of volunteers so in your words just because someone owns a gun you would be fine with forcing them into combat roles. I know plenty of pacifists than own a gun simply for sport but by your reasoning simply owning a gun should force them into service while the ones that don't don't have to go.

In a realistic terms any president that tried flying that way would be thrown out of office.


Fine the solution to your issue is universal service other countries do this and it works every one servers in some way towards the protection and betterment of the nation. Doesn't have to be military service but you have to do something that improves the country. Benefit you education for university and job experience and a paycheck.

The reason you tie it to gun ownership is that is what it states in the 2nd amendment.


A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.


It is right there at the start follow the letter of the amendment don't just skip to the end.
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21 / M / NC
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Posted 8/28/15 , edited 8/28/15
Yes I'm quite familiar with the 2nd amendment. No selective reading here. That was the purpose of my little stolen picture...

Thomas Jefferson- "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms"
No mention of compulsory service here! The people have the right, not the militia. My argument is that all citizens have the right to bear arms, regardless of military or militia service. If service is required, it isn't a right, its an incentive... I don't have to do anything to earn my natural rights...
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27 / M / TX
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Posted 8/28/15

gvblackmoon wrote:


J-POP187 wrote:


gvblackmoon
What I laid out does this cleanly and makes it so that if you don't own a firearm you don't have to be part of the militia if you do guess what man up and do your duty for God and country.


So you would be up for forcing people into service just on the bases of gun ownership. The military of the US is already made up of volunteers so in your words just because someone owns a gun you would be fine with forcing them into combat roles. I know plenty of pacifists than own a gun simply for sport but by your reasoning simply owning a gun should force them into service while the ones that don't don't have to go.

In a realistic terms any president that tried flying that way would be thrown out of office.



Fine the solution to your issue is universal service other countries do this and it works every one servers in some way towards the protection and betterment of the nation. Doesn't have to be military service but you have to do something that improves the country. Benefit you education for university and job experience and a paycheck.

The reason you tie it to gun ownership is that is what it states in the 2nd amendment.




Still doesn't address the issue universal service is for someplace like Israel while the US doesn't have countries that want to destroy us right next to our borders. Canada don't see a war happening with them and Mexico is all kinds of messed up so don't see anything on that front either. Can't really claim freedom when you forced into a government/military position. just for the betterment of society. While I agree military service for those that step up should have an edge over others in the job market having the right to choose what you want to do with your life is as American as apple pie and baseball. What your talking about seems akin to socialism. or collectivism. Just won't work for a capitalistic democracy unless you get rid of the entire foundation that the US was built on.
http://freedomkeys.com/collectivism.htm
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Posted 8/28/15 , edited 8/28/15



Alrighty! So you mean true Automatic Assault rifles? Sorry for the mix up, every damn newscaster calls any black rifle an "Assault rifle". As for legit full autos, the thing about tumbling still applies, it depends on the type of ammunition. Currently, the only legal full autos are the ones that where manufactured and registered before the ban. They cost a ton, and are never used in crime. Typically they are safe queens... As for your gunshow experience, if they weren't pre-ban, they more and likely where semi auto versions of the original "assault rifles". I don't want to try and say you don't know what you're talking about, as I obviously wasn't there, but I go to every gun show I can, and have never seen any Illegal firearms for sale. It's very easy to confuse prebans and semi autos with legit modern machine guns. If they were legit Post-ban autos... Dude, drag me to the gun show!


Come to the deep south I hate so much. Where pride runs rampant, childhood pregnancy is wild and crime is sky high. Here you can find all that you desire when it comes to guns! Hell, someone I know has a post-ban assault rifle he got from a gun show. 720 RPM? Lets shoot an entire magazine in 2.5 seconds! Also accidently shooting a stray in the process.

God I need to move back to Germany or New England. Deep south scares me way too much. I remember a kid I went to High School with accidently getting shot with an Assault Rifle. By his dad no less. No matter how good you say you are with an automatic, I wont trust you with it unless you have 10 years of military training under your belt and proper background check. RIP Quinn.
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Posted 8/28/15 , edited 8/28/15

PrinceJudar wrote:

Holy hell Mexico though....


Oi, you stole my post! I already linked that, just laid down on its side. Give meh muh credit!

http://crimeresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Homicide-Rates-for-Developed-Countries-OECD-2011-or-latest-year.png

RIP Page 2
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46 / M / Between yesterday...
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Posted 8/28/15

J-POP187 wrote:


gvblackmoon wrote:


J-POP187 wrote:


gvblackmoon
What I laid out does this cleanly and makes it so that if you don't own a firearm you don't have to be part of the militia if you do guess what man up and do your duty for God and country.


So you would be up for forcing people into service just on the bases of gun ownership. The military of the US is already made up of volunteers so in your words just because someone owns a gun you would be fine with forcing them into combat roles. I know plenty of pacifists than own a gun simply for sport but by your reasoning simply owning a gun should force them into service while the ones that don't don't have to go.

In a realistic terms any president that tried flying that way would be thrown out of office.



Fine the solution to your issue is universal service other countries do this and it works every one servers in some way towards the protection and betterment of the nation. Doesn't have to be military service but you have to do something that improves the country. Benefit you education for university and job experience and a paycheck.

The reason you tie it to gun ownership is that is what it states in the 2nd amendment.




Still doesn't address the issue universal service is for someplace like Israel while the US doesn't have countries that want to destroy us right next to our borders. Canada don't see a war happening with them and Mexico is all kinds of messed up so don't see anything on that front either. Can't really claim freedom when you forced into a government/military position. just for the betterment of society. While I agree military service for those that step up should have an edge over others in the job market having the right to choose what you want to do with your life is as American as apple pie and baseball. What your talking about seems akin to socialism. or collectivism. Just won't work for a capitalistic democracy unless you get rid of the entire foundation that the US was built on.
http://freedomkeys.com/collectivism.htm



You do know that this was how militias worked until the Spanish American war. With that war we figured out that state regulated militias just couldn't cut it because the men weren't able to do the job. So they created the national guard and the air national guard to fill this role. At no time was this supposed to be a civilian militia like the ones we are seeing now these militia were sworn to the state by law. In Washington this would be the Washington State Guard which has been active since 1855.

As for universal service that doesn't make you less free you do your time get your benefits and move forward with your life more prepared for what is ahead. I will point out to one of those countries that does this Switzerland are they less free then we are no they aren't the same goes for Israel yes there were countries where this wasn't true but that wasn't because they did this they had other issue.

It is socialism again this doesn't make you any less free it is a specious argument to make such a claim. Democratic socialism and those countries that practice it are doing fine and in all cases doing better than America. They have much better outcomes for child life expediency and education and longevity then we do. What they have which we don't have is a society that understands they we are in this together and we are stronger when we work together.

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41 / M / NW
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Posted 8/28/15
US Police seem to do a high rate of shooting as well, statistics of which it seems the government does not collect, or if they do collect they are not letting the public know. One news report 2013 in New York where the cop shoots into a crowd of people hitting two. In 2012 they hit 9 people. And it seems the law there allows it. Luckily people survived.

Googling " uk police killings vs us police killings " seems to provide sites that track numbers.

Youtube " Last Week Tonight with John Oliver: Civil Forfeiture " to be totally freaked out by the police.

They can shoot you and take your stuff without charging you for anything.

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24 / M / USA
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Posted 8/28/15

Archmechanite wrote:

US Police seem to do a high rate of shooting as well, statistics of which it seems the government does not collect, or if they do collect they are not letting the public know. One news report 2013 in New York where the cop shoots into a crowd of people hitting two. In 2012 they hit 9 people. And it seems the law there allows it. Luckily people survived.

Googling " uk police killings vs us police killings " seems to provide sites that track numbers.

Youtube " Last Week Tonight with John Oliver: Civil Forfeiture " to be totally freaked out by the police.

They can shoot you and take your stuff without charging you for anything.



I'm not saying the US police don't have problems. However the UK has very different crime. Using their policies would probably get more cops killed here than we already do.

Let's focus on gun control and rights though and less on police, we got a separate threads for that.
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40 / M / USA
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Posted 8/28/15 , edited 8/28/15
Doing a better job with checks when people purchase guns would be nice, but as far as more laws against them or flat out banning them... no. Even if we got rid of them, people would simply use something else. All the people calling for banning guns in general are pretty short sighted. It does concern me when a person with a mental issue can go and get a gun. Sure, there are checks in place for that, but they obviously aren't being enforced enough.

I own 13 guns currently. A handful are collector items while the rest are simply for range/hunting purposes. While I do think any law abiding citizen who doesn't pose as an obvious threat to society should be allowed to own a gun, I also believe you shouldn't be anywhere near one without proper knowledge on how to operate them.

Got too many idiots these days who don't lock their shit up or at least secure it out of harms way so children or random people have easy access to them. You've got sellers who aren't doing their jobs when it comes to checking these people. You've got lawmakers with no damn sense trying to regulate or remove them completely.

We don't need to become a police state like a particular ally of ours. Stricter fines for sellers who are lenient with purchases and better awareness on gun safety/operation would be better. It's annoying seeing some idiot screaming to remove guns just as much as it is to see some idiot screaming come pry it from my cold dead fingers.
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M / Fort Bragg, NC
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Posted 8/28/15
sure, take my guns




i'll sit here and watch people get killed by swords, knives, and plates anyways
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