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Post Reply US Gun Control
Posted 8/28/15 , edited 8/30/15
I think your biggest problem is suicide. [I wasn't just saying that]

There is strong evidence, from more than a dozen case-control studies, that a gun in the home in the United States is a risk factor for homicide and suicide, as well as unintentional firearm death.
See relevant articles put together:
https://journals.law.stanford.edu/stanford-law-policy-review/print/volume-17/issue-3-gun-control-old-problems-new-paradigms


A few comments from individuals in another forum that i liked:


Most gun owners just like to hunt and shoot. I work in a rural county in Ohio; many of my co-workers own guns and like to shoot and hunt. Yes, they are all white, but they are mostly not fat and are mostly reasonable, intelligent people. In their county crime is low and gun crimes are rare. 80 miles away gun crime is a serious problem in Cleveland, but those gun owners are swing voters in a swing district, and those affected by gun crime in Cleveland are not.

The NRA is not successful because it represents the gun industry or some gun-crazy millionaires. It is successful because there are far more voting Americans who enjoy their guns and do not experience gun crime than those who fear guns and suffer all of the effects of gun violence.

A prerequisite for progress on this issue is for the gun control crowd to abandon their fantasy stereotypes about American gun owners. The politicians know who the gun owners are and they know they vote. They respect gun owners. Only by changing the minds of those perfectly rational middle class gun owners will gun control ever progress legislatively. It won't be easy, but start by treating them with respect.



The problem with these various cause celebre is that they aren't symptomatic of the real problem. America doesn't have a serious problem with upper middle-class youngsters killing each other with guns. It doesn't have a serious problem with crazy young people shooting up schools like Sandy Hook. These aberrations do not reveal a widespread problem. America has a problem with poor people and gang members killing each other in its cities. This is the systemic problem which gun control could help to solve. But we don't talk about that problem. We talk about college students shooting up sororities, which is unlikely to happen again anytime soon. Far more of those sorority girls will die from their dates driving drunk, and everybody knows it.

America will not tighten gun laws because there is a vocal minority of (mostly law abiding) gun owners who do not wish to have the freedom to own guns restricted, and their views are more electorally important than the views of poor residents of the nation's (relatively few) neighborhoods where the danger is gun violence is high.




You have one side that blames assault weapons and another that blames mental illness. The left is too gutless to call for a repeal of the second amendment so they propose useless feel-good laws. The right wants the issue to go away so they blame a universally acknowledged but unsolveable problem. Blaming mental illness is like blaming evil. Nobody's gonna disagree with you but it's essentially throwing up your hands.



"There are 315 million documented people in the United States and while this fact in no way ameliorates the problem, on a “statistical” basis we may be safer with legal gun ownership in America than without it."

Exactly which statistics have suggested that? The most significant correlate of gun deaths is gun ownership: http://media2.policymic.com/c97c5aaddd7ca16e990fb7cad2505811.png

Moreover, there is absolutely, unequivocally, a strong link between gun control and reduced firearm deaths: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/nine-facts-about-guns-and-mass-shootings-in-the-united-states/

And when is it, in your opinion, alright to use a senseless crime to talk about the problem of gun violence in America? Columbine was 15 years ago, then came Virginia Tech, Sandy Hook, Fort Hood, Navy Yard, Aurora, Kinston...I could keep going. This is absolutely the time to use a senseless crime to evaluate why, exactly, there has been absolutely no political reform over gun control. America is the ONLY developed country in the world that experiences mass shootings with such alarming frequency.

The slippery slope argument of 'b-but if you ban guns you'll have to ban knives too!' is plain silly. Knives have purposes other than murdering people and, by and large, they are FAR less effective killers than guns. There was a mass stabbing at a Pittsburgh School this year: 21 kiddies and a security guard were stabbed. They all survived: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-26959628

Statistically speaking, for every stabbing in America there are 5.15 deaths by firearm. Knives absolutely do not kill more people than guns, nor are they more effective methods of execution.



The problem is that pro-gun people are in magic-mind. Guns are religion to them. No amount of data, reason, or any other real-world arguments will change their minds any more than reason would change the mind of a superstitious/religionist. It's all about fantasy.

I've spent a long time with pro-gun people and they are usually fat white men who need guns to feel adequate. They are, coincidentally, generally less educated and lower-income than those making the anti-gun case which simply makes them even more insecure and reliant on fantasy "reasons" why guns = freedom. These people genuinely believe that their guns are about "protection."

special-interests are always better fund-raisers than general-interest groups. Ordinary people just don't care enough about the issue until it is too late for someone they knew and loved.


Btw, Australia confiscated a lot of guns, that ended well. I haven't read anything recent on this [nothing published this year] mainly because i read those articles a long time ago when this debate interested me and i'm betting nothing much has changed. So, i've put them on this forum for those interested.
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Posted 8/28/15
It's sad how people(mostly liberals) see mass shootings on the news and the first thing they shout is "ban all guns!" You want crazy people to stop killing? Stop trying to take people's rights away and start trying to give mentally ill people the medical help they need. It's not that hard to understand.
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Posted 8/28/15 , edited 8/28/15
To put America's gun culture in two words: Fanatical & foolish

To paraphrase a comment made by someone on the internet: When you ask someone whether they had heard about the mass shooting during the week and they reply which one, you know have a problem.


America is long overdue for sensible gun control laws.


The gun control issue stems from the second amendment which was added in 1791 however, America was a completely different country back then. Military technology was also completely as well with all armed forces using smoothbore muskets which could be fired 5 rounds a minute if the person was well trained whereas today an M16 can fire up to 950 rounds a minute. As society changes so do its laws for example, in the UK there is no longer mandatory longbow practise monitored by the local clergy as the threat of war with France and Scotland has passed. To put it simply: America is radically different in 2015 than in 1791 certain laws are changed to account for this.

The argument that is made is that by having guns it will prevent a tyrannical government as the local population could form a militia on their own and overthrow the government. If you honestly believe that a civilian government can overthrow the US government by force of arms you are completely wrong. One sided does not begin to explain it. The average US infantry soldier is armed with a fully automatic rifle, body armour, explosives as well as other specialised equipment. Additionally that same soldier will been highly trained on how to operate and maintain that weapon. The average American "minute man militia" would not be as well equipped, trained or protected and would lost if they went toe to toe. When other factors such as jet aircraft, tanks, artillery, armoured vehicles, navel craft, professional officers etc. etc. the whole affair becomes so one sided it’s funny.


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Posted 8/28/15
Well as far as gun control, either outlaw them and dicth the second amendment, or take to heart the militaristic nature of the second amendment and remove all gun control. You can't have gun control and still have "A well regulated Militia" as was the original purpose of the second amendment
It was not for self defence.
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Posted 8/28/15
Depends upon the definition of "free." US weapon control = Aiming. French train terrorist, in the midst of Gun Controlled France walks down the train car carrying an AK Rifle. He is jumped by three Americans who know what rifles can do. Oh and a UK guy helps tie him up.
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Posted 8/28/15
There are many factors. One is access to ammunition. Some have proposed limits on buying ammunition and having ranges that certify number of rounds bought and fired. Another is magazine capacity. California limits to 10 rounds, for example.
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Posted 8/28/15

billytheboy wrote:


gvblackmoon wrote:


Well, there comes another disagrence i have. I do not beleive free speech should be regulated either. I do understand what you are saying, but my interpretation of the second amendment states that the people have the right to bear arms, militia or not. I'm typing on my POS phone and dont feel like attemlting copy and paste, but i could bring in some Jefferson, Madison, Hamilton, and a man who's name escapes me that all say ALL men have the fundamental right to bear arms period (as in no service required) and that their idea of the militia was every able bodied man not enlisted in regular military service, there forr we are all the militia.


Uhh Freedom of Speech has to be regulated or else people are free to slander or threaten without any consequence.
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Posted 8/28/15 , edited 8/28/15

PhantomGundam wrote:

It's sad how people(mostly liberals) see mass shootings on the news and the first thing they shout is "ban all guns!" You want crazy people to stop killing? Stop trying to take people's rights away and start trying to give mentally ill people the medical help they need. It's not that hard to understand.


Okay but the person with the mental has to be the one to decide whether or not they need medical help.
Posted 8/28/15

PhantomGundam wrote:

It's sad how people(mostly liberals) see mass shootings on the news and the first thing they shout is "ban all guns!" You want crazy people to stop killing? Stop trying to take people's rights away and start trying to give mentally ill people the medical help they need. It's not that hard to understand.


Medical help of that nature is never that simple. It's quite easy to tell when someone is physically hurt, but mentally? Most of the help comes to those that ask for it. You said banning guns would trample on rights, but it's all about rights in the mental health industry. It's a minefield of patient rights and such that can only be bypassed in the most extreme of circumstances. After all, forcing people to get mental health is a violation of their rights. That's why people advocate for gun control, it's much simpler than tackling the inadequacies of the mental health industry.
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Posted 8/28/15

PrinceJudar wrote:



The US has most of the guns as well though. Mass shootings doesn't say much. It's also not based per capita. Though I'm curious on the world's mass homicide occurrences, I imagine Europe may have it worse with terrorism being as it is over there.

Aha! Found it:

http://static5.businessinsider.com/image/55831cda69bedde87600549e-1200-2534/oecd-homicide-rates.png

Still up there, but I find it a better measure.


Well, yeah. There's a direct correlation between gun ownership and gun related deaths. My state's gun laws are almost nonexistent and not coincidentally, we lead the nation in gun homicides whereas states with stronger enforcement have far fewer gun homicides.
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Posted 8/28/15 , edited 8/28/15
I live in a suburb of Chicago that is very conservative and I think it would be a safe bet to say that there are many legal guns in my area. Since I've lived here I can only recall 2 homicides in the last 20+ years. However if I were to take a drive into the city and find the right neighborhood there would be a greater chance of me being shot than if I was in Afghanistan. I have a suspicion why this is so (*Cough war on drugs *Cough), but the problem of gun violence has nothing to do with guns and everything to do with people.
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Posted 8/28/15 , edited 8/28/15
Idc if people are against guns, this is 'Murica, you have the right to think and do whatever you wan't as long as you ain't hurting anybody or breaking the law. What bothers me is when anyone wants to make something illegal and yet remain ignorant about it, whether it be guns, anime, video games, marijuana, or porn, if you wan't something banned then learn what it is you are banning.

Perfect example, assault weapons. First off, no such thing. It's a term that was popularized by gun control advocates to sway the ignorant into voting for more gun control legislation. There is such a thing as Assault Rifles, but to ban them is pretty ridiculous when you look at the facts.

1) An assault rifle (capable of 3 round burst/full auto) is only available to Police, Military, and really REALLY rich people. To legally purchase an M16 can run you $10k, and that's after paying the ATF a tax stamp to purchase one and of course going through the proper back ground checks and waiting 6 months.

2) In 2012, according to the FBI, 322 people were killed by ANY kind of rifle in the U.S. By any they mean bolt action rifles, semi-auto rifles (like the infamous AR-15 used in the Sandy Hook massacre), and assault rifles. That means you are more likely to get killed by a knife, a bat, or purposefully ran over by someone than you are to get shot by a rifle. If you take bolt action and semi-auto rifles out of the equation and only include assault rifles, then you are more likely to get killed by a shark.

3) Of the 11,000 people killed by guns each year in the U.S. 5-6,000 of them are black men. That's over half, despite black men making up only 6% of the population. Poverty, specifically among the black community, is more of a problem than guns will ever be.

4) In the past 25 years, overall crime (Homicide, rape, B&E...etc) in the U.S. has dropped by 49% according to the FBI, despite a larger population AND more guns on the streets.

5) 20 years of research funded by the Justice Department has found that programs and legislation targeting high risk people or places rather than targeting guns, can reduce gun violence.

Banning anything doesn't solve a problem if you don't target the root of that problem. In America, and in the rest of the world, poverty, inequality, and mental illness is the root of all violence.
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Posted 8/28/15 , edited 8/28/15
I'm starting to swing toward supporting stricter gun control. Sure, people will find ways to kill even if there are no guns available to them, but they'll just kill more easily if there are. Now, I understand that guns are available illegally and that gun control laws won't immediately stop shooting-related crimes, but I think the rate will decrease over the years as more illegal guns are confiscated and people become more accustomed to following the law and less fanatical about owning firearms. Will people who could have defended themselves with guns probably get killed? Perhaps. But I think the cost may be worth the likely eventual result after enough time passes.

I do also understand the appeal of owning firearms and the fear of not having them when they are needed, so I am a bit torn, but other countries have been shown to be quite able to deal with life without guns. There's no reason to suspect that a similar system won't eventually work when we become adjusted to it here. I am wobbling around in the middle.
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Posted 8/28/15
Agree with Mordant hands down... (pardon the pun, lol)
It's poverty stricken areas that get the most homicide by firearms and its down with a 22LR or 9mm or some other pistol caliber, definitely not assault rifle issue. This is just the "herd" sucking CNN and Twitter's dick. When it comes down to it you don't see any of us runnin around shootin up kids in their school right? What the hell is their excuse? Gun's don't speak, let's try talking to the one's that pull the trigger when we are lookin for culprits.
We are all adults and young adults here, we can handle it. Let's not take away our "choice" whether or not to bear arms. Even if you don't have a S&W M&P 9mm laying next to you right now, you still have the choice to.
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Posted 8/28/15
I believe anyone looking at this issue needs to look at the big picture and move on. First, guns don't cause people to just start killing, but it does allow those with the desire to do more of it.

The Southern states will most likely go to war over this issue and it would take a war to win in congress for the government to take action and demand everyone turn in their guns... the truth is no one would turn them in so next send police officers to go door to door collecting them... this would cause mass panic and anger to the point police would be killed and cities would fortify. Not joking. (Lookup the recent scare the south went thru with operation Jade Helm or whatever) So, next you turn the military on its own people... how will that go over remember now this isn't a communist nation.

I think that with all of the shootings going on around the nation we will see some new laws, but they will probably have a few bullet holes in them
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