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Post Reply 9 reasons why raising the minimum wage is a bad idea!
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Posted 9/3/15
There would be an unfair impact on the investor class and the wealthy; so your continued support is... well not appreciated as such but your support of your local conservative politician is, keep the working poor poor!
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Posted 9/3/15 , edited 9/3/15

PrinceJudar wrote:


dyme420 wrote:

It's what you've been doing all along... So sure.. if it suits an argument you might have actually made.. instead of this fallacy that labor is to be treated like a commodity..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwVjAFXv4O0


If you actually watched the video it argues against you. LMAO. What's funnier is he's making fun of you.

You could read a bit on Labour economics and wikipedia for some general knowledge, but it might burn your eye sockets out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_economics



If you actually bothered to read, you would know that my by my first post I think $15 is ridiculous. Too quick on your liberal trigger ain't yah?



The fuck are you talking about? It directly supports my argument.

Just a quick edit hoping it wasn't read yet... But I'm going to accuse you of doing the same thing, using the first 10m of the video then responding lol.. I'll admit it with pride because I knew exactly where the video was going knowing it's MisesU

But you've got me, I was looking for a different video on the same channel on the subject. However, the lecture from MisesU stands. Never once did he advocate for government enforced minimum wages.

Found it tho.

https://mises.org/library/how-truly-free-markets-help-poor-0
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Posted 9/3/15

slfcmore wrote:

Yes, the hell with minimum wages. Let's just go back to the feudal system or slavery. Please tell me that was a joke post.


thank you for posting this
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Posted 9/3/15 , edited 9/3/15

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


PrinceJudar wrote:

If you actually bothered to read, you would know that my by my first post I think $15 is ridiculous. Too quick on your liberal trigger ain't yah?



You should note for those calling you a bull shit liberal or an SJW that descending to insults means they have nothing of substance left. At which point you accept their white flag, declare victory and move on.



I called her a SJW because she's condemning business yet in the same breath praising government..

The problem with this is one is voluntary, while the other is coercive. Hence... SJW.. Feelings before facts.
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Posted 9/3/15 , edited 9/3/15
and it's much easier to keep the poor oppressed when you don't have to pay them as much
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biscuitnote wrote:

1. It’s a big country. The costs of living, especially housing, vary widely in America from state to state and city to city. If the point of raising the minimum wage is to provide a “living wage,” why should the minimum wage in low-cost areas such as Texas or Oklahoma be the same as in high-cost areas such as San Francisco or Manhattan?


A call to adjust a federal minimum wage in the US to account for differences in cost of living is a whole other animal from calling for its abolition or prevention of its increase. In fact, calling for such an adjustment would require its increase in some locations, especially large urban centres like New York City.


2. The states are already taking care of it. Twenty states and the District of Columbia already have minimum wages higher than the current federal minimum of $7.25 an hour.


Does this necessarily mean that states are providing sufficient minimums? No. It could just as easily mean that the federal amount is simply set far too low. The fact that states' minimums exceed the federal minimum doesn't by itself say anything about the adequacy of state minimums for providing a minimum standard of living. Besides, pointing to a condition representing less than half the states in the US and saying that the matter is moot because this condition exists somewhere is ridiculous.


3. Private industry and the free market are already taking care of it. Even low-skill, entry level positions in many areas already pay higher than minimum wage.


And when an economic downturn comes around and people are banging on the door constantly asking for a position? What does the invisible hand do to entry level wages then? What does a rational actor in the employer's position offer then? The trampoline isn't there for when you're airborne and rising. It's for when you come back down or are first trying to launch.


4. As an anti-poverty tool, it is a blunt instrument. A post by David Henderson cited by the chairman of the Harvard Economics Department, Greg Mankiw, points out that a lot of minimum wage earners are second or third-job holders in households with other income. That could include a teenage summer employee whose parents both have jobs. Other minimum wage workers may include retirees with income from savings and Social Security who own their homes mortgage-free.


How exactly does abolition or freezing of the minimum wage at present levels resolve the issue referenced here? That some people are earning more than they need to survive comfortably while working minimum wage positions (such as a retiree who works a minimum wage job out of boredom since they've already paid off their mortgage and have sufficient savings to last) doesn't nullify the institution's benefits to those who aren't as well off and genuinely need the money they're making in those positions to stay afloat. That some peoples' income from minimum wage work is essentially surplus money for their households also doesn't counterbalance the damage which would be done to those who legitimately need every cent of their minimum wage were the institution abolished.


5. It’s not clear that it’s constitutional. The Supreme Court, in its opinion in the 1923 case Adkins v. Children’s Hospital of District of Columbia, made a strong argument that a minimum wage was a violation of the constitutionally guaranteed freedom of contract embedded in the Fifth Amendment’s language about due process and the deprivation of liberty and property: “To the extent that the sum fixed exceeds the fair value of the services rendered, it amounts to a compulsory exaction from the employer for the support of a partially indigent person, for whose condition there rests upon him no peculiar responsibility, and therefore, in effect, arbitrarily shifts to his shoulders a burden which, if it belongs to anybody, belongs to society as a whole.” The Court later, in the 1937 case West Coast Hotel v. Parrish, reversed Adkins by a five to four margin. But maybe the court was right the first time around.


After not having that latter ruling overturned for 78 years I think we can say that the matter is for all intents and purposes settled for now. Does that mean the issue couldn't be taken up by a future court? No. Does it mean that's unlikely to happen anytime soon? Yes. And until it does the judgment from the entity which has final say in the matter is that minimum wages comport with the US federal constitution.


6. Even if the freedom of contract isn’t protected by the Constitution, it’s a natural right that should not be infringed. As President Kennedy put it in his inaugural address, “the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state but from the hand of God.” If two free people want to enter into a voluntary, consensual agreement that doesn’t infringe on anyone else’s rights, why should the government stop them? If someone wants to work for $5 an hour, and someone wants to hire that person for that much, and no one is forcing either one of them to enter into the agreement, by what authority does government step in and stop them?


Rights are social constructs by their very nature, not something the Heavens blast down that all people are entitled to by default. The rights people currently enjoy are those which they've managed to either persuade or force society to recognise, and those rights which people feel ought to be present will also have to be won through either persuasion or force. There's nothing natural about them.

This is what it really means to say that freedom isn't free: that your rights aren't guaranteed by or derived from God. You have to go out and fight for them your own damned self, and if you win the day you've won whatever rights you now hold or preserved the ones you already held by the sweat of your own brow.


7. It would eliminate jobs. Ordering businesses to pay entry-level workers more will make them hire fewer of them, and consider replacing more workers with robots or computers. That’s good if you are in the robot or computer business, but not so good if you are trying to combat unemployment. The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office estimated that President Obama’s proposed $10.10 wage, once fully implemented, “would reduce total employment by about 500,000 workers.”


One might say that this is what unemployment insurance and education/training initiatives are for. One might also say that the shift toward automation of unskilled, entry-level positions which can be automated is inevitable as the technology to advance this automation becomes cheaper. Raising the minimum wage does increase the cost of each minimum wage employee, true. That can and has previously translated into more reserved hiring and retention practices, yes. But that's mostly a serious problem when increases in the minimum wage are pronounced and sharp, which a jump by just short of $3.00 an hour certainly would be.

A better short-term plan is to scale increases in the minimum wage with inflation, and a better long-term plan is to put education/training initiatives in place such that the pool of people who find themselves having to take minimum wage work is diminished to the optimal amount. That's no small feat, and requires maintaining an environment in which businesses are both willing and able to expand their operations. But it's something that can be done.


8. It would reduce the incentive for low-wage workers to get an education and move up to a higher-paying job. The lower the minimum wage, the more eager a minimum wage worker would be to enroll in a community college course at night, improve his or her skills, and apply for a higher-paying job. Making the entry-level jobs higher paying increases the risk that workers will get stuck in them for longer instead of moving on to something more rewarding.


And yet if a minimum wage labourer is having to hold down two (or even three) jobs to make the bills each month they aren't exactly able to pay for that night course, don't have time to chase down scholarships/grants while meeting their professional obligations, don't necessarily have time to give to attending that night course even if they do somehow find the money, and don't always have the benefit of an employer who is willing to offer backing for education in exchange for agreement to stay internal when they try to move up. Double this problem if the labourer in question has children or a disabled/elderly family member to care for, or God forbid is disabled themselves.


9. It’s a sneaky way to increase welfare spending and raise taxes. Raising taxes to spend more on welfare is a political loser. But raising the minimum wage puts money in the pockets of working poor people, at the expense of business owners (and of consumers who would pay in the form of higher prices). If politicians want to increase the earned income tax credit or other work-related welfare benefits, they should do the hard work of building political support for such policies, rather than choosing the roundabout approach of a minimum wage increase.


Raising taxes to spend more on welfare isn't a political loser. It's practically part of the Democratic Party's platform if it isn't actually in there, and they run on it every election cycle. They point out connections between the issues of income inequality, minimum wages, women's wages, and benefits like SNAP, HUD, and so on every time they have to run. Part of what ultimately cost Mitt Romney his election bid in 2012 was his "47% gaffe", where he essentially lambasted nearly half the country as moochers and denounced expansion of social programmes.


From http://reason.com/archives/2014/03/03/9-reasons-why-raising-the-minimum-wage-i. Personally I agree the minimum wage is a terrible tool at fixing poverty and all it does is kill jobs. But what does crunchyroll think?


Clearly I disagree with practically all of this, and for good measure I'll add that I'm fully aware that the institution behind that article you've pointed to has a political agenda. It's a right-libertarian think tank's magazine you've linked to, whether you knew that or not. Regardless, the matters raised have been addressed respectfully and thoughtfully, as proper discussion warrants.
Sogno- 
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Freddy96NO wrote:

Takes a dollar from the above "throws it to the ground!* raises minimum wages.



they gonna tase u in the butthole until it's on fire for that quib
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M
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Posted 9/3/15
I thought "a rising tide lifts all boats" right? How come it only works if rich people are considered the water?
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dyme420 wrote:
I called her a SJW because she's condemning business yet in the same breath praising government..

The problem with this is one is voluntary, while the other is coercive. Hence... SJW.. Feelings before facts.


First of all, there is a difference between someone with a liberal leaning on some points and a SJW...

Second of all, there are facts on both sides of the argument. They are simply different economic philosophies. For example, you could look to the fact that states that raised the minimum wage in 2014 saw higher than average Job Growth, contrary to the opinion that raising the minimum wage will be catastrophic for jobs.

Overall, as both myself and Prince Judar have said, there is a balance to be found somewhere in the middle which provides the best possible outcome for everybody and the extremes on either side could be harmful. Eliminating the minimum wage will not solve the economy's problems, and raising it by a large amount will not either. Instead, we should seek to find the middle point where both of the economic philosophies meet to find the largest upside and the smallest downside.

I personally believe that it is likely that the federal minimum wage is lower than the ideal position and the tipped wage is almost certainly too low (when looking at past economic trends and how the minimum wage has changed in relation to inflation).
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Posted 9/3/15 , edited 9/3/15

sundin13 wrote:


dyme420 wrote:
I called her a SJW because she's condemning business yet in the same breath praising government..

The problem with this is one is voluntary, while the other is coercive. Hence... SJW.. Feelings before facts.


First of all, there is a difference between someone with a liberal leaning on some points and a SJW...

Second of all, there are facts on both sides of the argument. They are simply different economic philosophies. For example, you could look to the fact that states that raised the minimum wage in 2014 saw higher than average Job Growth, contrary to the opinion that raising the minimum wage will be catastrophic for jobs.

Overall, as both myself and Prince Judar have said, there is a balance to be found somewhere in the middle which provides the best possible outcome for everybody and the extremes on either side could be harmful. Eliminating the minimum wage will not solve the economy's problems, and raising it by a large amount will not either. Instead, we should seek to find the middle point where both of the economic philosophies meet to find the largest upside and the smallest downside.

I personally believe that it is likely that the federal minimum wage is lower than the ideal position and the tipped wage is almost certainly too low (when looking at past economic trends and how the minimum wage has changed in relation to inflation).



So Federal government comes up with a magic number based off of the fiat they inflated and propose as, "living wage" when the jobs that actually pay minimum wages ARE NOT MEANT TO PROVIDE living wages. Such is the economy today, that we employ more fast food labor than production.

Ok, so wages are $10.10 or the dreaded $15.. You do know that the people who will receive that wage will be far over qualified for that job right? Or do these things get past you guys?? If the minimum wage is raised higher you'd discriminatively be leaving out the lower IQ, lower skilled populace from the hiring pool.. Simply because they're not worth the higher entry level wage. You can get upset all you'd like but business is business. It's not like it's not already happening in society today. All jobs under the current $7.25 minimum are considered illegal and the positions cannot be filled..


And what's living wages anyway? Food, clothes, a roof over your head? Or what we call the "poor" these days? Obese, flashy, spend my check on bullshit because the government already subsidizes the other 70% of my life. Is a smartphone really necessary? Do the unskilled deserve to be riddin' dem dubs down teh road bling blinging it jammin' that Taylor Swift??


Markets should dictate what labor is worth, not government. The facts are in folks.. We've had a minimum wage for decades now... Poverty has only grown. You can deny all you'd like. The sky is blue and facts is facts.


Just some food for thought:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XooUY4p4RaY
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Posted 9/3/15
The best system would start with removing 30 million people or so that choose to work outside the system. Then dump every h1b visa holder out as well, and increase tariffs on cotton, steel, and a couple other things such as electronics from China or overseas.

Playing hopscotch with min wages is like pissing into the wind, the cool breeze might feel good, but you're not doing anything other than making as mess.

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Posted 9/3/15 , edited 9/3/15

dyme420 wrote:
So Federal government comes up with a magic number based off of the fiat they inflated and propose as, "living wage" when the jobs that actually pay minimum wages ARE NOT MEANT TO PROVIDE living wages. Such is the economy today, that we employ more fast food labor than production.

Ok, so wages are $10.10 or the dreaded $15.. You do know that the people who will receive that wage will be far over qualified for that job right? Or do these things get past you guys?? If the minimum wage is raised higher you'd discriminately be leaving out the lower IQ, lower skilled populace from the hiring pool.. Simply because they're not worth the higher entry level wage. You can get upset all you'd like but business is business. It's not like it's not already happening in society today. All jobs under the current $7.25 minimum are considered illegal and the positions cannot be filled..


And what's living wages anyway? Food, clothes, a roof over your head? Or what we call the "poor" these days? Obese, flashy, spend my check on bullshit because the government already subsidizes the other 70% of my life. Is a smartphone really necessary? Do the unskilled deserve to be riddin' dem dubs down teh road bling blinging it jammin' that Taylor Swift??


Markets should dictate what labor is worth, not government. The facts are in folks.. We've had a minimum wage for decades now... Poverty has only grown. You can deny all you'd like. The sky is blue and facts is facts.


Just some food for thought:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XooUY4p4RaY


Where did I say anything about living wage? Let me reread my statements...Nope, nothing about living wage. Just condemnations of worker exploitation and saying that people should be fairly compensated.

As for your second statement, as it is now, the minimum wage is nowhere near high enough to really make any significant impact on anyone's ability to get a job and it will not decrease the amount of jobs available (as shown through my previous post), and even still, the skill barrier will not go up for low skill jobs. If there is any shift (which again is extremely doubtful) it would be towards those who express more of a long term commitment as opposed to those with higher education (aka constantly looking for work elsewhere) which isn't really a bad thing.

Again, the free market does an absolutely terrible job at a lot of things, and one of those things is ethics. Again, in areas with a high demand for jobs (such as impoverished areas), the free market would allow businesses to decrease their wages because even if the current employees left, you would still be able to find someone to fill that position. Looking through history, you see factories a lot of examples of businesses and factories exploiting workers through unfair and unethical conditions, but it wasn't the worker protests that got us past that hump, it was largely government policies which enforced certain standards. If given the opportunity to exploit workers, businesses will take that opportunity. At its worst, a reasonable minimum wage simply exists to prevent worker exploitation. At its best, a reasonable minimum wage can aid individuals in impoverished conditions while having a negligible impact on businesses as a whole.

EDIT: I would like to make a comment surrounding VZ68's post but not really responding to it. Small minimum wage bumps will have a minimal impact (although I think that minimal impact will be positive and an elimination of minimum wage could have a significant negative impact), but overall, it is far from the most important thing in regards to improving economic conditions. Economic systems need a huge overhaul to help improve the wealth distribution in the USA, which do start at the top. Focusing on minimal impact policies around the poor should be much less of a focus than larger scale policies around the rich, including closing taxation loopholes and tax breaks and preventing politicians from being directly or indirectly influenced by large corporations.
md4124 
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Lord, save me from 23 year old libertarians. Come back in 20 years when you've had a real job and aren't living off of mommy and daddy anymore. Your post was nothing copy/paste with no thinking at all.

If you want to be against the minimum wage you should know that they only people that you are helping are the rich. If you're not rich then you're just lubing yourself up and bending over for them.

And for the record I make $46/hr and expect to be getting a $5-10/hr raise. I have no idea how people survive on $7.50-10.00/hr.
md4124 
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So Federal government comes up with a magic number based off of the fiat they inflated and propose as, "living wage" when the jobs that actually pay minimum wages ARE NOT MEANT TO PROVIDE living wages. Such is the economy today, that we employ more fast food labor than production.

Ok, so wages are $10.10 or the dreaded $15.. You do know that the people who will receive that wage will be far over qualified for that job right? Or do these things get past you guys?? If the minimum wage is raised higher you'd discriminatively be leaving out the lower IQ, lower skilled populace from the hiring pool.. Simply because they're not worth the higher entry level wage. You can get upset all you'd like but business is business. It's not like it's not already happening in society today. All jobs under the current $7.25 minimum are considered illegal and the positions cannot be filled..

And what's living wages anyway? Food, clothes, a roof over your head? Or what we call the "poor" these days? Obese, flashy, spend my check on bullshit because the government already subsidizes the other 70% of my life. Is a smartphone really necessary? Do the unskilled deserve to be riddin' dem dubs down teh road bling blinging it jammin' that Taylor Swift??

Markets should dictate what labor is worth, not government. The facts are in folks.. We've had a minimum wage for decades now... Poverty has only grown. You can deny all you'd like. The sky is blue and facts is facts.


Just some food for thought:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XooUY4p4RaY


Pretty much everything you say is false, starting with minimum wage jobs not meant to provide living wages. That is false. That is exactly what they were meant to be.

"No business which depends for existence on paying *less than living wages* to its
workers has any right to continue in this country... By living wages, I
mean more than the bare subsistence level - I mean the wages of a decent
living." - Franklin D. Roosevelt

The rest of what you said is also false. You're just copy/pasting conservative talking points that you read on conservative websites. Boring.
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If you've seen me before then you know I keep touting I'm from the UK. at the point of the post, ye I've had a few drinks but I just seen the back end of a documentary on the way illegal immigrants get into the UK (which i believe had an over dramatization of how police treat them - I've never seen anyone in uniform beat someone for no reason they'd lose their jobs here) it kind of pissed me off. you know why? it's a bit political and needs sources, but I'd be here forever getting them. basically, the bigger a problem like illegal immigration gets, the more the working class pays (pretty much any western country does this) but in the UK that's 20%last time i checked and I fear one day it would be 25% (I believe china has this). my job packs all my hours into 12 hours a day. that's 6 days, possibly 7 at once, and I'm barely above minimum wage. the minimum wage exists for people who live in the country, and though it sounds that I'm a bit pissed at immigration, anyone moving here gets asylum, according to the documentary on illegals £70 a fortnight for doing truly nothing.

the minimum wage always changes, and so do taxes. you can't do much about it apart from something extreme like ethnic cleansing. I doubt anyone who grew up with with good morals or the government would think that's a good idea. dropping a Hitler bomb here but he did something like that. near 80 - 90% of the world wanted him dead
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