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Post Reply The Kim Davis controversy: are religious beliefs a valid reason to break the law?
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Posted 9/10/15

PapaGregory wrote:America isn't or defined as a Christian nation also where does the DOI mention god


(Well, do you mean semantically, or "the creator" which endows our certain inalienable rights?)
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I love her.The more the people of this belief system try to impose their beliefs on others brings the US one more step closer to a Constitutional amendment or a Supreme Court precedent in support of a Freedom FROM religion.Can't happen?If you told somebody in 1968 that the Supreme court would set a precedent that allowed gay marriage how many would have believed you?It's even better when you politicize it with presidential hopefuls like good old predictable Chucklebee.It's great to illustrate what the religious right ( epic misnomer) actually thinks about the separation of church and state.
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PapaGregory wrote:

America isn't or defined as a Christian nation also where does the DOI mention god


David Josiah Brewer Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States: "Our laws and our institutions...are emphatically Christian." "These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation....we find everywhere a clear recognition of the same truth."

John Jay October 12, 1816 "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers...of our Christian nation...."

Alabama Court 1983 Jaffree v. Board of School Commissioners of Mobile County quoted Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story on the 1st Amendment: "The real object of the First Amendment was not to countenance much less to advance Mohammedanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by prostrating Christianity, but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects and to prevent any national ecclesiastical patronage of the national government." (original understanding, a bit broader today)

Declaration of Independence: "Laws of Nature and of Nature's God" "all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator" "With a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence"

Benjamin Franklin Morris (1610-1867) in his book "The Christian Life and Character of the Civil Institutions of the United States (1864) "This is a Christian nation, first in name, and secondly because of the many and mighty elements of a pure Christianity which have given it character and shaped its destiny from the beginning."

Harry S. Truman writing to Pope Pius XII, in 1947: "This is a Christian nation"

Woodrow Wilson "America was born a Christian nation." (1913)

Secular Government yes, but a Christian nation ...a nation that would not have existed apart from Biblical Christianity; unless one pretends really REALLY hard.

http://townhall.com/columnists/michaelmedved/2007/10/03/the_founders_intended_a_christian,_not_secular,_society/page/full


pirththee wrote:

The US does not have a state religion and even though a small minority of Christians of this country want to pretend really REALLY hard that this is true ,it's not."Bah Humbug " Ebenezer Scrooge.


Um, that is actually what I said from the beginning; no one wants a "state religion" - the Founders, me, or anyone else. Better pull out that electron microscope to find those Christians who want that state religion.


The more the people of this belief system try to impose their beliefs on others brings the US one more step closer to a Constitutional amendment or a Supreme Court precedent in support of a Freedom FROM religion.


Like the ones seeking out Christian flower stores to impose their beliefs upon?" Now the "Freedom from Religion" - now that is a battle we can win; Kim Davis, stop muddying the waters.

Without God, there is no basis for Human Rights (that governments need respect)
http://www.discovery.org/a/153
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Posted 9/10/15
The US does not have a state religion and even though a small minority of Christians of this country want to pretend really REALLY hard that this is true ,it's not."Bah Humbug " Ebenezer Scrooge.
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Posted 9/10/15 , edited 9/10/15

dougeprofile wrote:


pirththee wrote:

The US does not have a state religion and even though a small minority of Christians of this country want to pretend really REALLY hard that this is true ,it's not."Bah Humbug " Ebenezer Scrooge.


Um, that is actually what I said from the beginning; no one wants a "state religion" - the Founders, me, or anyone else. Better pull out that electron microscope to find those Christians who want that state religion.


Um actually your intent has very been clear from the beginning and the denials are just that.Better put that electron microscope away and take a macro look at how small the number of really "participating" termed Christians are perceived or don't. Lose another generation.Either way, it plays right into my mindset.
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Posted 9/10/15

dougeprofile wrote:


PapaGregory wrote:

America isn't or defined as a Christian nation also where does the DOI mention god


David Josiah Brewer Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States: "Our laws and our institutions...are emphatically Christian." "These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation....we find everywhere a clear recognition of the same truth."

John Jay October 12, 1816 "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers...of our Christian nation...."

Alabama Court 1983 Jaffree v. Board of School Commissioners of Mobile County quoted Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story on the 1st Amendment: "The real object of the First Amendment was not to countenance much less to advance Mohammedanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by prostrating Christianity, but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects and to prevent any national ecclesiastical patronage of the national government." (original understanding, a bit broader today)

Declaration of Independence: "Laws of Nature and of Nature's God" "all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator" "With a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence"

Benjamin Franklin Morris (1610-1867) in his book "The Christian Life and Character of the Civil Institutions of the United States (1864) "This is a Christian nation, first in name, and secondly because of the many and mighty elements of a pure Christianity which have given it character and shaped its destiny from the beginning."

Harry S. Truman writing to Pope Pius XII, in 1947: "This is a Christian nation"

Woodrow Wilson "America was born a Christian nation." (1913)

Secular Government yes, but a Christian nation ...a nation that would not have existed apart from Biblical Christianity; unless one pretends really REALLY hard.

http://townhall.com/columnists/michaelmedved/2007/10/03/the_founders_intended_a_christian,_not_secular,_society/page/full


pirththee wrote:

The US does not have a state religion and even though a small minority of Christians of this country want to pretend really REALLY hard that this is true ,it's not."Bah Humbug " Ebenezer Scrooge.


Um, that is actually what I said from the beginning; no one wants a "state religion" - the Founders, me, or anyone else. Better pull out that electron microscope to find those Christians who want that state religion.


The more the people of this belief system try to impose their beliefs on others brings the US one more step closer to a Constitutional amendment or a Supreme Court precedent in support of a Freedom FROM religion.


Like the ones seeking out Christian flower stores to impose their beliefs upon?" Now the "Freedom from Religion" - now that is a battle we can win; Kim Davis, stop muddying the waters.

Without God, there is no basis for Human Rights (that governments need respect)
http://www.discovery.org/a/153


You're spouting quotes from acolytes and talking about Flower Stores and I'm muddying the water ?LOL!
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White Power!!!......
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Posted 9/10/15 , edited 9/10/15

pirththee wrote:

I love her.The more the people of this belief system try to impose their beliefs on others brings the US one more step closer to a Constitutional amendment or a Supreme Court precedent in support of a Freedom FROM religion.Can't happen?


Yes. It can't.
Because we already HAVE a Constitutional amendment dealing with the issue, and it specifically prevents the government from shooting off its big mouth about any other opinions on the subject.

Sorry, but no "How about a little fire, straw-man?" burnings today....Next?
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Posted 9/10/15
Freedom FROM religion sounds like a good idea to me.
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papagolfwhiskey wrote:

Freedom FROM religion sounds like a good idea to me.


You already HAVE it if you want it. Right there at the top of the paper, with the big "1" next to it.
If you believe that's not enough, because the rest of the world is Out To Get You With It, that's an issue for other professionals to handle.
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Posted 9/10/15

Ejanss wrote:


papagolfwhiskey wrote:

Freedom FROM religion sounds like a good idea to me.


You already HAVE it if you want it. Right there at the top of the paper, with the big "1" next to it.
If you believe that's not enough, because the rest of the world is Out To Get You With It, that's an issue for other professionals to handle.


You Assume I live under the laws of your country.
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Posted 9/10/15

dougeprofile wrote:

We are defined as a Crhistian nation with a secular government as clearly laid out in the writings of the Founding Fathers. The Declaration of Independence - which is our founding document - does indeed mention God - the constitution is the how that (secular) government was to be organized.

Even though Marriage can only exist between a man and a woman and even though Obererfell was wrongly adjudicated, it is still the law (until more justices are appointed who will overturn it; or we pass a constitutional amendment (not going to happen)). The Judge who sent Kim Davis to jail (a bit extreme) accommodated her religious convictions as he should have done - all she had to do was allow her subordinates to issue the licenses. If she can't do that, then yes she should resign.

Not participating in a same sex ceremony through the creative process of making a cake or arranging flowers is a proper exercise of freedom of conscience (some same sex couple want to force their beliefs on shop owners so much the look for stores with Christian owners) - but working for the government is completely different; she has a right to her beliefs (which I share), but she does not have a right to work for the government. Kim is being unfairly charged with hypocrisy on one point however - her conversion came after her divorces; oh, and she is a Democrat; PLEASE Kim, I beg you - Do not write a book!

There are REAL issues of religious liberty to defend - issues conservatives can win on ...Kim Davis is not one of those issues; rather she conflates those issues by fighting a battle that cannot be won.


We are not a Christian nation the personal beliefs of the founders as proof of this is fantasy the document by which this country was founded is the proof. Reaching for more than that is noting more than supposition, and a false argument since you can only judge this in the view of the law which is the Constitution.

This is why in ever case dealing with a religious belief being forced unto the general population fails in the courts. This is because as the document that all laws are derived from the Constitution clearly states the government shall not promote or have a religion nor may it deny those that have a religion.

What this means if you are a government official is you have to be neutral in your treatment of people and can not push your personal beliefs on to those you server. As a person who represents the government in any capacity you can not voice your personal beliefs they are mute. You can do this outside your job but not while you are doing it.

As for those that believe we are a Christian nation it is 55% of the population this belief was fostered by big business in the 30's to counter Roosevelt and should be correct at anytime it appears we are not a Christian nation never have been. For us to be a Christian nation it would need to be defined by law that is what it means to be a Christian nation. Defined by law like England, Israel, India those are countries with a religion it is as I said defined by law.
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Posted 9/10/15

Ejanss wrote:


PapaGregory wrote:America isn't or defined as a Christian nation also where does the DOI mention god


(Well, do you mean semantically, or "the creator" which endows our certain inalienable rights?)


Well, that wording can be taken to mean any creator myth or even things like "the big bang". It would take quite the ego to claim that it only means their specific religion's faith or interpretation of said faith or lack of belief in the case of atheists. This was actually a big violent conflict starter in the time of the founding fathers (the poor Irish...).
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Posted 9/10/15 , edited 9/10/15

papagolfwhiskey wrote:


You already HAVE it if you want it. Right there at the top of the paper, with the big "1" next to it.
If you believe that's not enough, because the rest of the world is Out To Get You With It, that's an issue for other professionals to handle.


You Assume I live under the laws of your country.


And thus you assume it has any bearing on our discussion.
(What, you're Canadian? Sucks to be British descended; we should know, we were trying to get away from the whole state-Anglican crap to begin with.)
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Posted 9/10/15 , edited 9/10/15
We have the same issue with a judge here in Oregon. You would think they would look at the job description before taking it. Both of them have taken an oath to uphold the job as defined. I guess they don't believe that those oaths are as important as their religious beliefs. Don't let the door hit you on the way out!
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