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Post Reply Should anime/manga shift more toward being intellectual?
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Posted 9/16/15

dark_pride wrote:

Steins;Gate and GITS are just as "intellectual" as ... Vsauce, ViHart, or Numberphile videos in YouTube. Teenage newbs who are obviously new to anime will see shows like Attack of Titan, Steins;Gate and GITS as "intellectual", when in fact these intellectual topics have been dealt with in fiction many times. These shows did not brought anything new to the table. Might as well call garbage shows like Madoka "intelligent" since the writer just happened to shove the word "entropy" in its viewer's faces, right?

Expecting "intelligence" in children's cartoon is just asking too much. Seriously.


They probably want to post about Monster Musume but posted this kind of whine instead

I've watched anime since the 80's and if anything there are more of these "intellectually triggering" shows than ever
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Posted 9/16/15

dark_pride wrote:

Steins;Gate and GITS are just as "intellectual" as ... Vsauce, ViHart, or Numberphile videos in YouTube. Teenage newbs who are obviously new to anime will see shows like Attack of Titan, Steins;Gate and GITS as "intellectual", when in fact these intellectual topics have been dealt with in fiction many times. These shows did not brought anything new to the table. Might as well call garbage shows like Madoka "intelligent" since the writer just happened to shove the word "entropy" in its viewer's faces, right?

Expecting "intelligence" in children's cartoon is just asking too much. Seriously.


Now how many people are going to take this bait?
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Posted 9/16/15 , edited 9/16/15
Anime is not a genre. Neither is manga. They are mediums.

You can't just look at all of the Shonen, Seinen, Shojou, Idealistic, cynical,
nationalistic, globalistic, anti-humanity, pro-humanity, pirate, ninja, martial arts,
spiritual, sports, romance, mecha, sci-fi, fantasy and a multitude of other genres and say
"You know, anime should be more intellectual..."

I will admit, I treat the term "intellectual" unfairly.
When something is described like that, I tend to be
hesitant to pick it up. This is less because intellectual series
are bad, and more because what most people call intellectual
is more along the lines of "See how everyone is dying, everyone
is a jerk and there is nothing as unrealistic as selflessness? It's so realistic! So intellectual!"

There are many forms of intellectualism. What I call intellectual usually
involves stories which require some thought to read/view and understand.
I also believe that even the silliest of series can have intellectual moments.

Edit: Also, everyone IS aware that ecchi and harem
anime are not the only available genres, right?
Even if they where, Fanservice/intellectualism is a... weird
axis of comparison to say the least.
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Posted 9/16/15 , edited 9/16/15

nanikore2 wrote:

They probably want to post about Monster Musume but posted this kind of whine instead

I've watched anime since the 80's and if anything there are more of these "intellectually triggering" shows than ever


I'm curious about what exactly is being implied in regards to Monster Musume, I've yet to watch it and have plenty of others to watch before it.

Then obviously we have different levels of what is 'intelligent' since the thing I see that is in the 'more now than ever' would be shows trying to appeal to one's libido not their brain.


Lietill wrote:


I've come across several intellectual anime/manga that were neutral rather than cynical (what you're kinda describing), especially since I myself don't really enjoy anime that kill off a ton of characters, try to praise asshats as if they're golden, and that spit on the concept of sacrificing oneself to save another.

You and I share that view on intellectual then because that's also how I view it, things that spark the brain to think about things and may even lead to inspirations. And yes I do think series can have intellectual moments, then they can just as easily fall back into the usual or below average levels.

Not as weird if you consider that atm anime lean toward either trying to do service shots/appeal to the libido or try to have some intelligence to them. I wouldn't say only those points exist but would instead consider it as a scale of sorts with various anime falling in-between and most being more on the libido appeal side.
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Posted 9/16/15

I've come across several intellectual anime/manga that were neutral rather than cynical (what you're kinda describing), especially since I myself don't really enjoy anime that kill off a ton of characters, try to praise asshats as if they're golden, and that spit on the concept of sacrificing oneself to save another.


You are right, of course, in regards to there being plenty of neutral, as opposed to cynical, shows
which are intellectual in nature. I apologize if I seemed to imply that that is what intellectualism is.

Many people I know these days, though, tend to discredit anything and everything that is not darkly
cynical. I think it's an age thing. i.e., they have reached a point where they are 'too old' for the idealistic
stories of their youth where the heroes always win, but not quite 'old' enough to understand that a story
does not have to portray everything as hopelessly bleak to be a mature, well thought out story.


Not as weird if you consider that atm anime lean toward either trying to do service shots/appeal to the libido or try to have some intelligence to them. I wouldn't say only those points exist but would instead consider it as a scale of sorts with various anime falling in-between and most being more on the libido appeal side.


Ehh, maybe you have a point. I admit I can be ignorant of shows
outside of my sphere of interest, and I've taken a moment to realize
just how prevalent ecchi is right now.
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Posted 9/16/15 , edited 9/16/15

xCrimsonEX wrote:
Did I say they wouldn't be made? Nope, I said that the ratio should be shifted to be more balanced so they aren't some rarity or put behind ecchi series that want to appeal to libidos.

Because it can only show so much T&A before it gets old, because the fanbase is getting older and wanting something more intellectually challenging, and because society is hopefully shifting towards a more intellectual direction. Not even factoring in the reputation and respect they'd earn (and consequently bring to the anime medium).


The ratio is as the market wants it to be and you haven't even presented any evidence that there is a problem to begin with. You can't shift the ratio or change the balance and not have something be cut as a result. Resources are not infinite. The industry can only produce x amount of anime per year. If you want more of one thing, there will be less of something else. And thats ignoring the previously mentioned problems of venturing into the territory of telling people what they should watch instead of what they want to watch.

You're acting like we're awash in an ocean of crass T&A with nothing to save our hungering intellect from the void of panties. There are plenty of shows and manga that are not just cheap titty fests. But there's no sense in producing more of something that there isn't a market for or less of something that there is a market for.

As for the "fanbase getting older" no, its not getting older, you just moved up one slot on the demographics. The "fanbase" spans all ages. As you grow old and crinkly, fans younger than you grew older to take your place. I don't know if you've noticed but the age range of the CR community is very broad.


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Posted 9/16/15 , edited 9/16/15

Lietill wrote:


I was just saying that while that is one form there's another side, I think you mentioned that yourself and I was just reinforcing it.

Yep, that's something I've noticed as well. I'd put it as part of the faux-mature view that blurs realistic and cynicism.

Again I'm fine with even those types of shows, I personally would just rather have a more balanced ratio and this thread was seeing if there were others that felt the same or not (even though people seem to be misunderstanding it as trying to demand a shift).


runec wrote:


Because I'm not demanding a change, I was asking if people would prefer a change or shift in the same way as I would. In this particular case if the ration stands at 4:2 there isn't a huge change if that were to move to 3:3 and the anime schedule adjusted accordingly, that's going with the idea that this is a demand instead of a query to see how others feel. How is the current setup not the exact same 'telling people what to watch'? If someone absolutely hates ecchi they're screwed because that's what the dominant ratio is. And again I'm not demanding the change, I'm seeing if I'm the only one that feels this way or not.

Basically sex appeal is dominant, finding a show that goes outside of that and gets you thinking is the minority. Again this thread isn't demanding anything, if anything it serves as a gauge to see if there is a market for it.

I meant that x-generation that is already into anime continues to get older and wants anime that continues to appeal to their maturing interests, instead of the same anime they saw when they were younger. I would say that anime companies put anime out to try to grab the attention of everyone they can, that includes x-generation. I rarely pay attention to ages because anyone can have it show what they want and some of the +30's I've seen talk and have the mind sets of those in their late teens to early 20's thus further trivializing the age; and vice versa.
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Posted 9/19/15

xCrimsonEX wrote:


nanikore2 wrote:

They probably want to post about Monster Musume but posted this kind of whine instead

I've watched anime since the 80's and if anything there are more of these "intellectually triggering" shows than ever


I'm curious about what exactly is being implied in regards to Monster Musume, I've yet to watch it and have plenty of others to watch before it.

Then obviously we have different levels of what is 'intelligent' since the thing I see that is in the 'more now than ever' would be shows trying to appeal to one's libido not their brain.



No. What's obvious instead is that you haven't been watching anime long enough to realize that the number of intellectually pandering shows have increased over the decades, not decreased.
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Posted 9/19/15 , edited 9/19/15

nanikore2 wrote:

No. What's obvious instead is that you haven't been watching anime long enough to realize that the number of intellectually pandering shows have increased over the decades, not decreased.


I've got +10-20 years of watching anime (one of my first anime = 3x3 eyes which came out around "91) and I can look at the fact that I haven't seen an increase in Steins;Gate/GitS style shows instead I see shows throwing in bits of intellect then falling back to less intelligent overall stories; not to mention that every show seems to now be obligated to have some form of service. I look back to the days when Cowboy Bebop, Death Note, FMA, Rurouni Kenshin, or hell even further back to Akira where the emphasis was put on the story and actual intelligent/thought provoking issues or at least was more in favor of intelligence than some of the current shows import on showing off panties or cleavage shots.

Also don't get on some kind of high horse with me about how long one has been watching anime, I more than earned my place at the table, not that one should have to bother with this triviality.
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Posted 9/19/15

xCrimsonEX wrote:

After going through a few stories (one of which was Spec Ops: The Line) and after reading a specific quote:


I don't agree making sex become casual is a way of "maturing" society. Sex is an animalistic part of humans after all. I prefer we cultivate our brainy part instead. Make intelligent shows, not sex-oriented shows.
it made me think and this thread is the result.

Should anime shift away from sex appeal and more toward things like prejudice/discrimination, what it means to be human, philosophies, ideologies, space exploration, deep relationships (emotion level not b.s. sex level), "war is hell", social inequality, multi-dimension theories , and etc. In other words moving closer to shows like: Ghost in the Shell franchise, Psycho Pass, Steins;Gate, Zetsuen no Tempest, live-action tv-wise Mr. Robot, and game-wise Spec Ops: The Line (amongst many others). Basically shifting the focus from Hugh Hefner to Neil Degrasse Tyson in a sense.

I personally think that it should, while keeping the other side of the spectrum satisfied as well. We should have anime that make us want to become more intelligent and even can teach us about certain concepts.

Side question: Do you think society itself would be better shifting towards intelligence over libido?

Again personally I say yes, since our libido is a primitive instinct that won't lead to our future survival like striving to find solutions to issues via intellect advancing would. We shouldn't revert to animals but strive to evolve to something even greater.


Hmm. I think there are Anime and Manga that are more "Intellectual" with each genre; you just have to find it. Also, there are also Anime and Manga that do both; combining "Intellectual" and "Libido" to tell a good story of how both can be controversial in the fictional world and in our reality as well!
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Posted 9/19/15

xCrimsonEX wrote:


nanikore2 wrote:

No. What's obvious instead is that you haven't been watching anime long enough to realize that the number of intellectually pandering shows have increased over the decades, not decreased.


I've got +10-20 years of watching anime (one of my first anime = 3x3 eyes which came out around "91) and I can look at the fact that I haven't seen an increase in Steins;Gate/GitS style shows instead I see shows throwing in bits of intellect then falling back to less intelligent overall stories; not to mention that every show seems to now be obligated to have some form of service. I look back to the days when Cowboy Bebop, Death Note, FMA, Rurouni Kenshin, or hell even further back to Akira where the emphasis was put on the story and actual intelligent/thought provoking issues or at least was more in favor of intelligence than some of the current shows import on showing off panties or cleavage shots.

Also don't get on some kind of high horse with me about how long one has been watching anime, I more than earned my place at the table, not that one should have to bother with this triviality.


Wrong. Try Matzinger Z, Gotchaman, Starblazers and their ilk. Early shows mostly shoot for adventure, and not exactly designed to extract any type of "deep thought"... Particularly the "boob missiles" from that fem robot from Matzinger Z.

I'll stay on that high horse because people like you put me there
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Posted 9/19/15
It is not going to. Anime is meant for TV, or in modern cases Internet, i have seen anime with a good intelectual stuff on , yet whenever you play it on tv , few people will see it. people don't sit to watch tv anime to scratch their head thinking, there would be eventually few cases every time yet "intelectual" stuff wont get on. People watch for emotions not for knowledge.
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Posted 9/19/15

JuJu26 wrote:

Hmm. I think there are Anime and Manga that are more "Intellectual" with each genre; you just have to find it. Also, there are also Anime and Manga that do both; combining "Intellectual" and "Libido" to tell a good story of how both can be controversial in the fictional world and in our reality as well!


I would point to the issue within this from my perspective of 'having to find it', when I can throw a rock and hit an ecchi series even when stumbling around drunk. I do agree that certain stories can hit both camps, but they're usually pretty rare.


nanikore2 wrote:

Wrong. Try Matzinger Z, Gotchaman, Starblazers and their ilk. Early shows mostly shoot for adventure, and not exactly designed to extract any type of "deep thought"... Particularly the "boob missiles" from that fem robot from Matzinger Z.

I'll stay on that high horse because people like you put me there


What do you even mean with the 'wrong', I pointed into the past to specific shows that showed anime being more on the intellect side of the spectrum there is no wrong. Compare the shows of the past to the shows now and even the ratio and there's a definite disparity.

I don't put you on anything, if anything I'll knock you off of a horse. I've watched anime for plenty enough time and have more than enough variety so you trying to go that 'inexperienced' route isn't going to work with me.
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Posted 9/19/15
Japan will make what it wants, regardless of anything people say on here. I know its a discussion and all but seriously people act like their opinion is going to persuade Japan to go one way or the other.

I've seen shows back in the earlier eras that were just as much mindless ecchi, fighting, etc as they do today and i've seen a lot of intellectual thought provoking anime today as there were back in the days.

Most of us that grew up with Dub anime understand that there were less series on the ecchi than the thought provoking intelligent stuff, because less of the ecchi stuff made it on TV so people often think of the shows as all intellectual over mindless sexual comedies as some so put it. We're exposed to way more anime than previous eras due to the internet and sites like CR.

If you dont like the stuff thats made today then dont watch it, its that simple.
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Posted 9/19/15

xCrimsonEX wrote:


nanikore2 wrote:

Wrong. Try Matzinger Z, Gotchaman, Starblazers and their ilk. Early shows mostly shoot for adventure, and not exactly designed to extract any type of "deep thought"... Particularly the "boob missiles" from that fem robot from Matzinger Z.

I'll stay on that high horse because people like you put me there


What do you even mean with the 'wrong', I pointed into the past to specific shows that showed anime being more on the intellect side of the spectrum there is no wrong. Compare the shows of the past to the shows now and even the ratio and there's a definite disparity.

I don't put you on anything, if anything I'll knock you off of a horse. I've watched anime for plenty enough time and have more than enough variety so you trying to go that 'inexperienced' route isn't going to work with me.


What "past"? All of your examples of intelligent shows are relatively recent- all the more to show how narrow your view is. What ratio? There is no real numerical analysis. Further more- you conflate good story with being intellectual. Many issues are common plot points that are used over and over across shows (someone else already pointed that out) but that don't qualify them as intellectual in nature. Bebop and Kenshin are well written but that doesn't make them intellectual. For a show with actual philosophical content, try Legend of Galactic Heroes.

Your conflation and vagueness in non-analysis aren't going to knock anyone off of anything.
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