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Post Reply Tsunderes
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Posted 10/12/15 , edited 10/12/15
OK so I can usually suffer through an anime with a tsundere most of the time, however i may have met my match. Rakudai Kishi No cavalry's main heroine (I know this because A she's tsundere and 2 she's the first introduced heroine) is a massive tsundere and i'm not saying just a little, she is the honest to god embodiment of tsundere 5 minutes in I dropped the series. She aggravates me to such an extent I'll say she is by far my least favorite anime character. While I abhor tsunderes she takes the cake I was seconds away from breaking my TV she is the most self absorbed piece of crap I've seen in an anime. Tsundere have taken over anime and I can't stand it. name an anime most likely you'll find a bloody tsundere and in most likelihood she is the main heroine for some inconceivable reason is the girl the protagonist goes for. If the protagonist was thinking rationally even slightly he'd grow to absolutely despise a tsundere not love her, personally i'd try and avoid her if not end her. it is almost as bad as the bubbly idiot who eats alot but i won't complain about them because i can at least see them as cute. tsunderes are the main heroine in 9 out of 10 animes and it infuriates me. all harem anime start off with hero walks in on usually red haired tsundere changing then gets hit. sorry that's boring as hell now. I know I'm ranting if you hate it then obviously we have different opinions just please move on to a topic that pertains to you. Bottom line anime needs to knock it off with this terrible character type or at least tone it down a hell of a lot. and to those saying "just don't watch those anime." that would mean no longer watching romance or harem anime if not anime entirely. so please discuss why or why not you agree or disagree with me. here i'll give 3 reasons tsunderes are bad.

1. absolutely now one but a masochist would even tolerate them, so why are they so prevalent?

2. They are literally everywhere enough is enough.

3.tsunderes are incorrigible idiots, what train of thought made them think "hey if I'm an absolute prick to the one I love then they'll love me."? obviously you'll be avoided if not assaulted.

disclaimer: This is a rant of please ignore it if you're not going to contribute to the discussion. also I'm not busting on anyone's interests I'm merely stating my opinion.
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Posted 10/12/15 , edited 10/12/15
I think the "tsundere" personality is so prominent because the screen writers can use it as an easy way to show relationship development without having to show any actual development. Basically the writers are screaming in the background, look at all the development between the male lead in this female character. She totally hated his guts at first, but now she now loves him, which you can tell because she acts nice sometimes. This is common in a lot of media not just in anime/Japanese produced shows.
Posted 10/12/15 , edited 10/12/15
Hoorays for tsunderes! You're just tsundere about tsunderes.
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Posted 10/12/15
In itself Romance is at the same time my favourite and least consumed genre, soiled by the absurd amount of Tsundere characters everywhere. And I mean everywhere. Tsundere characters are just convinient ass pulls for either lazy writers incabable of creating better or lazy executives too busy pissing their pants to try out differently.
I also have no idea how the least likeable characters time and time again end up being the most popular ones so that we see one Tsundere after the other, they are too much of a save bet, especially those who adhere to a formula and hardly ever deviate.

My last hope for anime Tsunderes is that Tsuki Tsuki will get an adaptation (unlikely as hell) so that we at least get an entertaining one.

Oh yeah, before I forget, welcome to the Tsunderes ruin everything club.
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Posted 10/12/15
Tsunderes are only as good as the writer behind them. In fact, I often use the tsundere of the series to measure the scale of how good the show truly is. If a show is truly well written, then the tsundere has evolved beyond the archetype and has become a dynamic character that contributes to the story. If the show is shit, then of course the tsundere archetype can be the most annoying of all archetypes when underdeveloped.

Here is an example of a good Tsundere from one of the greatest sci-fi anime ever written:

Posted 10/12/15
I also don't like that stereotypical female character, it gets very annoying and I never saw the appeal of it. That + loli+ echii have ruined anime for me.

I'm not a big fan of romance anime but the ones I liked the female characters had a strong personality but they're not Tsundere, ex: Sarasa from Legend of Basara, Nana from Nana and Caska from Berserk...well, none of them are strictly "romance" but the romance they had with the male lead characters were...mature. Yep, a romance with a tsundere is immature, I don't have time for that.
Posted 10/12/15

Nightblade370 wrote:

Tsunderes are only as good as the writer behind them. In fact, I often use the tsundere of the series to measure the scale of how good the show truly is. If a show is truly well written, then the tsundere has evolved beyond the archetype and has become a dynamic character that contributes to the story. If the show is shit, then of course the tsundere archetype can be the most annoying of all archetypes when underdeveloped.

Here is an example of a good Tsundere from one of the greatest sci-fi anime ever written:



Obligatory Ever17 Tsugumi Pic.

Sogno- 
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Posted 10/12/15
the only good kind of tsundere is a male tsundere
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Posted 10/12/15 , edited 10/12/15
Haruhi Suzumiya... I don't like her and I don't understand why anyone else does.
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Posted 10/12/15 , edited 10/29/15
Let's go straight to the questions and reasons tsundere are a problem.


periah250 wrote:

1. absolutely now one but a masochist would even tolerate them, so why are they so prevalent?


Here you've probably asked the most important question: why is the archetype, good or bad, so popular as to border on being ubiquitous? Well, let's think about what a tsundere is: she's an initially cold, distant, spiteful girl who insists with all her might that the main protagonist is someone she not only does not currently love, but never could conceive of a time where she would feel otherwise. Further, she's frequently very outgoing, aggressive, talented, and beautiful. Popularity seems to come fairly naturally for her, too.

Then the thing that makes a tsundere a tsundere happens: her initial coldness, spite, and disinterest gradually give way to warmth, fondness, and openness to the main protagonist's feelings. Where once there was a towering wall between herself and the main protagonist there now stands an open gate. Perhaps she is revealed to secretly be extremely vulnerable, or the main protagonist does something that proves his worth in her eyes, or maybe she had feelings for the main protagonist all along but dealt with her anxiety and self-doubt by pushing the source away.

Put all of that together and what does it sound like? It sounds to me like wish fulfillment fantasy to ease the pain of unrequited love. There are multiple directions to go with a character intended to reach someone who feels that women and girls are too aggressive and judgmental to be worth bothering with (this is a common complaint among young Japanese men from what I understand), and one of those directions is to provide the reader/viewer with a similarly aggressive and judgmental female character upon which their own love interest may be projected. Once that's done the tsundere's shift toward being warm, open, and loving fulfills a wish for the reader/viewer. Loneliness and isolation aren't exactly strangers to Japanese fans of manga and anime, and even a cursory glance into the Japanese understanding of the term "otaku" would reveal why such people might have a need for a lot of wish fulfillment fantasy.

This is also, I think, why the whole thing about little sisters has gained such prominence. A little sister is familiar, close, consistently available, and may even be affectionate toward her brother when no other girls are. A lonely mind could conceivably warp that affection into a fantasy the dreamer has no intention of ever bringing to reality, but nevertheless proves a comforting relief from isolation. It's not that Japanese boys and men suddenly have a widespread hankering to get it on with their sisters. It's that otaku are treated so badly and outcast so thoroughly that their extreme loneliness conjures extreme means for relief. It's a product of desperate loneliness, not shameless perversion.

As for why I like tsundere? Well, look back at the initial part of my description of them. They're frequently presented as talented, attractive, popular, capable individuals that are strong enough to not only be able to say "No" without worrying about it, but to pound anyone who doesn't take the "No" into hamburger. They're too aggressive, but all told a tsundere is pretty fun for me to project myself onto. Who wouldn't like to imagine themselves as being attractive, intelligent, athletic, popular, competent, and assertive?


2. They are literally everywhere enough is enough.


There is nothing new under the sun, so they say.


3.tsunderes are incorrigible idiots, what train of thought made them think "hey if I'm an absolute prick to the one I love then they'll love me."? obviously you'll be avoided if not assaulted.


They're not actually thinking that. They're generally thinking more along the lines of "Why can't I stop pushing this person away? I care about them, so why am I cruel to them?" It's wish fulfillment for the reader/viewer. A reassurance that the girls and women that have turned the reader/viewer down were just being dishonest with both the reader/viewer and themselves. That's the part of tsundere I don't like projecting onto.
Posted 10/12/15
I find it attractive due to the following reason. It's quite simply heartwarming yet fascinating how such a spiteful relationship can be forged into one of deep affection. It is also easy to show direct development by saying "hey look, they like each other now" which I think is pretty cheap. :/
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Posted 10/12/15

PeripheralVisionary wrote:

I find it attractive due to the following reason. It's quite simply heartwarming yet fascinating how such a spiteful relationship can be forged into one of deep affection. It is also easy to show direct development by saying "hey look, they like each other now" which I think is pretty cheap. :/


There is also that the tsundere's archetypal story arc has been sufficiently thoroughly explored to make writing another one fairly straightforward. I hadn't thought of things from the producer's angle.
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Posted 10/12/15 , edited 10/13/15

periah250 wrote:

Rakudai Kishi No cavalry's main heroine (I know this because A she's tsundere and 2 she's the first introduced heroine) is a massive tsundere and i'm not saying just a little, she is the honest to god embodiment of tsundere 5 minutes in I dropped the series. She aggravates me to such an extent I'll say she is by far my least favorite anime character. While I abhor tsunderes she takes the cake I was seconds away from breaking my TV she is the most self absorbed piece of crap I've seen in an anime.


This is why you shouldn't drop a show 5 minutes in. Stella is far from the typical tsundere. If you stayed for the whole episode, you would know that. She drops most of the tsun act by the end of the episode and quickly becomes good friends with Ikki, even admiring him. By the second episode,
She's making no effort to hide the fact that she wants him, unlike any tsundere. Her tsun to dere ratio went from 8-2 to 1-9 real quick within just the first two episodes. Stella is easily my favorite character in that show. This is coming from someone who dislikes tsunderes.

If you want a terrible tsundere to bash on, look no further than Kirino from Oreimo. That thing should have never been born.
Posted 10/12/15

BlueOni wrote:

Let's go straight to the questions and reasons tsundere are a problem.


periah250 wrote:

1. absolutely now one but a masochist would even tolerate them, so why are they so prevalent?


Here you've probably asked the most important question: why is the archetype, good or bad, so popular as to border on being ubiquitous? Well, let's think about what a tsundere is: she's an initially cold, distant, spiteful girl who insists with all her might that the main protagonist is someone she not only does not currently love, but never could conceive of a time where she would feel otherwise. Further, she's frequently very outgoing, aggressive, talented, and beautiful. Popularity seems to come fairly naturally for her, too.

Then the thing that makes a tsundere a tsundere happens: her initial coldness, spite, and disinterest gradually give way to warmth, fondness, and openness to the main protagonist's feelings. Where once there was a towering wall between herself and the main protagonist there now stands an open gate. Perhaps she is revealed to secretly be extremely vulnerable, or the main protagonist does something that proves his worth in her eyes, or maybe she had feelings for the main protagonist all along but dealt with her anxiety and self-doubt by pushing the source away.

Put all of that together and what does it sound like? It sounds to me like wish fulfillment fantasy to ease the pain of unrequited love. There are multiple directions to go with a character intended to reach someone who feels that women and girls are too aggressive and judgmental to be worth bothering with (this is a common complaint among young Japanese men from what I understand), and one of those directions is to provide the reader/viewer with a similarly aggressive and judgmental female character upon which their own love interest may be projected. Once that's done the tsundere's shift toward being warm, open, and loving fulfills a wish for the reader/viewer. Loneliness and isolation aren't exactly strangers to Japanese fans of manga and anime, and even a cursory glance into the Japanese understanding of the term "otaku" would reveal why such people might have a need for a lot of wish fulfillment fantasy.

This is also, I think, why the whole thing about little sisters has gained such prominence. A little sister is familiar, close, consistently available, and may even be affectionate toward her brother when no other girls are. A lonely mind could conceivably warp that affection into a fantasy the dreamer has no intention of ever bringing to reality, but nevertheless proves a comforting relief from isolation. It's not that Japanese boys and men suddenly have a widespread hankering to get it on with their sisters. It's that otaku are treated so badly and outcast so thoroughly that their extreme loneliness conjures extreme means for relief. It's a product of desperate loneliness, not shameless perversion.

As for why I like tsundere? Well, look back at the initial part of my description of them. They're frequently presented as talented, attractive, popular, capable individuals that are strong enough to not only be able to say "No" without worrying about it, but to pound anyone who doesn't take the "No" into hamburger. They're too aggressive, but all told a tsundere is pretty fun for me to project myself onto. Who wouldn't like to imagine themselves as being attractive, intelligent, athletic, popular, competent, and assertive?


2. They are literally everywhere enough is enough.


There is nothing new under the sun, so they say.


3.tsunderes are incorrigible idiots, what train of thought made them think "hey if I'm an absolute prick to the one I love then they'll love me."? obviously you'll be avoided if not assaulted.


They're not actually thinking that. They're generally thinking more along the lines of "Why can't I stop pushing this person away? I care about them, so why am I cruel to them?" It's wish fulfillment for the reader/viewer. A reassurance that the girls and women that have turned the reader/viewer down were just being dishonest with both the reader/viewer and themselves. That's the part of tsundere I don't like projecting onto.

And they slowly fall in love with him because he's just so damn nice. You're right, it is wish fulfillment. At least in Oreimo Kyou went above and beyond to earn Kirino's love, which raises problems in of itself, only to be somewhat remediated by the fact that she's his sister, and you go above and beyond for family and not hot girls you just met. Somewhat.
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