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Post Reply Fans nowadays are very spoiled
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Posted 10/17/15

marterran wrote:

<starts rocking in his rocking chair> Yeah, yeah. I totally agree about the reviews. I took a lot of chances and hit more often then miss, proudly enough. That was a lot to take a risk on for for $30 VHS tapes for a few episodes that were released so slowly. I was doing the original Hakkenden and Evangelion and it was murder. I prefer to be spoiled too tbh. Heh...I think we've earned it.


I watched the Evangelion VHS fansubs one episode a month at the anime club meetings. When the summary episode came along, people weren't too pleased.

Back then, the imports were on those big laserdiscs. I didn't have a laserdisc player, so I could only ogle at them and drool.
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Posted 10/17/15

nanikore2 wrote:


marterran wrote:

<starts rocking in his rocking chair> Yeah, yeah. I totally agree about the reviews. I took a lot of chances and hit more often then miss, proudly enough. That was a lot to take a risk on for for $30 VHS tapes for a few episodes that were released so slowly. I was doing the original Hakkenden and Evangelion and it was murder. I prefer to be spoiled too tbh. Heh...I think we've earned it.


I watched the Evangelion VHS fansubs one episode a month at the anime club meetings. When the summary episode came along, people weren't too pleased.

Back then, the imports were on those big laserdiscs. I didn't have a laserdisc player, so I could only ogle at them and drool.



Damn that's hard with one episode a month! And funny with that summary episode, I was just as pissed.

My buddy had a laserdisc player and I watched Akira and Ghost in the Shell on it, to name a few. Jeez all of that disc flipping! It was awesome though. He paid a fortune for them. Just for it to go the way of the dodo, eh?
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Posted 10/17/15
the ideal of watching NO sub or dub anime...
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Posted 10/18/15
The internet as a hold is a very spoil place.

-Mastergold
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Posted 10/25/15
Unless you Japanese
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It doesn't matter.
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Posted 10/25/15
Mabe the previous generations were lacking.
Posted 10/26/15
let's celebrate.
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Posted 10/26/15 , edited 10/15/16
I'm dividing up my response into two parts. First to reminisce which is done here, and my following comment will be about current problems due to new technology and streaming:



nanikore2 wrote:

(The reason I posted was get people to appreciate what they have. I've seen all kinds of reactive and defensive responses to this post- If you still feel what you feel that's fine... I'm not here to force to you to appreciate)

Fans nowadays are seriously spoiled, a quasi-historical account

Absolutely no one here will like what I have to say, but I've been meaning to say this for a while (years) and hey. I don't care anymore.


I would say the vast majority of anime fans nowadays, particularly the newer ones, have absolutely no idea how good they have it. As far as I'm concerned they're spoiled rotten. What seem to me to be the smallest things get them in one huge twist.

Here are some examples of how things used to be, when fans want to watch anime.

Ordering fansub VHS tapes: 4 episodes per tape
=======================================


Actually, some fansub tapes only had 2 episodes. It still sucked. And fansubs were still INCREDIBLY niche. You had to basically know someone who knew someone that knew a place in a back alley somewhere to get those.

Ebay really opened up the avenue to find fansubs back in the day. I remember going on there and buying Love Hina and a few other titles, knowing I was getting fansubs, because, quite frankly, it easier than trying to deal with a download on a 56k modem, (which were still prevalent then).


nanikore2 wrote:

To copy tapes, they usually use actual dupe machines if they're rich or daisy-chain VCRs if they're not. If you're not that lucky you get the grainy crappy copies at the end of the chain.

Maison Ikkoku / Kimagure Orange Road

A Canadian fansub group used to be the only group that did those series.

The turnaround time for VHS fansub tapes was supposed to be less than a year, but nope- Some of the tapes definitely took longer than a year, and some of the tapes I just never GOT.

They charged $2 per tape. That was the going rate to pay for postage and blanks.

Some of the tapes were really bad. I could barely read the subtitles and the entire picture was fuzzy. Well, beats not watching at all.


File sizes were small-ish and subs were hardsubbed, but mostly that was to make sure that they were accessible. It still took HOURS to download 1 episode at maybe 50-100MB's. Quality of video was a relatively recent obsession where literally a fansub torrent matched file size to the store bought disks (4.3 gigs for about 5 eps)


nanikore2 wrote:


Later on, I could start finding tapes at video stores.

Looking for commercial VHS tapes at video stores: 2 episodes per tape
============================================================

I think companies charged around $25 to $30 for a single tape, that only had two episodes on them. Ugh. However, the production quality was better than fansubs of course, and I got clear pictures!

Ranma 1/2

The dubbed Ranma 1/2 was done by a Canadian studio, and distributed by Viz. The Canadian studio actually did a great job- The actors didn't treat the show like a kid's show and didn't ruin it with nasal kid's show overracting which plagued anime VA for the longest time. I was happy to pay the steep price, but those episodes sure came out at a glacial pace...


As much as people complain about shitty dubbing, it wasn't THAT bad. It only seems bad compared to now because of everyone's complaints. Back then it was what it was. And lest we forget about changing dialogue for localization.... because anime was so niche, you got what you got. Most of the time you got dubs, and the scripts were changed somewhat to make it easier to digest for the american audience. The dubs vs. subs argument didn't really exist except outside of some REALLY REALLY REALLY hardcore fans (which also, probably were the ones that knew the language, watched raws, and worked on fansubs). Subtitles weren't much better with the whole language translation bit. My old Escaflowne VHS tapes had "Sempai" turned into "Amano" (or whatever the character Htomi was always calling out to that wasn't Van). It was just par for the course.



nanikore2 wrote:


Going to monthly local anime club meetings: More than 1 hour drive

======================================================

Later on there started to have anime clubs, where people rent space at a local library or local college lecture hall and show VHS tapes on a big projection screen.

That was wonderful. I got to watch stuff for free! However........

Even though each VHS fansub had typically 4 episodes, the clubs certainly couldn't just show them all at once. They have to hold back and save things up because by that time the turnaround time for fansubs still weren't that fast.

So they showed maybe one episode per MONTH (two at most) each incoming series.

Imagine this: You're watching either Fushigi Yuugi, the most emotionally-manipulative anime in the history of mankind, or Vision of Escaflowne, one of the best anime fantasy epics, and you have to wait a MONTH for the next episode?

Every time, particularly at the end of a cliffhanger episode (...which is just about every episode sometimes in Fushigi Yuugi and Escaflowne) there was a huge groan as everyone in the whole room collectively exclaimed in dismay "OHHH NOOOOOOOO!!" as all of us had to wait at least a month to find out what happens in the next episode... Sometimes there are no meetings or meetings get cancelled, or the schedule gets changed when the tapes don't come. Yes, please use your imagination.


You knew of anime clubs? Fucking LUCKY.....

You're probably older than me, oddly enough. When I first got to meet other anime fans, it was purely through the BBS websites. Before that, I was the one to get all my friends hooked on anime, (well, about... 2 friends). That might also just be a difference in area and accessibility.

People also forget that the release dates and simulcasts are a result of fansubs and the internet eating away at the market share for legit companies. The companies doing anime were so niche they could pretty much sell you a shit sandwich and you'd eat it because there was LITERALLY nothing else. Video rental places (for those that remember stores like Blockbuster and such) occasionally had an anime section.... With about 10 tapes. 5 were dragonball or sailor moon. 2 were probably softcore porn. And it was near the childrens movies.

Release times meant whenever the fuck they felt like it. About 5 years ago even, I remember a voice actor arguing on youtube in a convention hall that the time to get the dubs and even the subs done was about making sure they were "quality" and "more accurate" etc. etc.... Just excuses, as you can tell by today's simulcasts (same day subs? what about that "quality" they talked about before!?!?!) and quicker release times. They simply had you by the balls before. (and that's why I HATE the legal methods of old. They had you by the balls and they KNEW it...)


nanikore2 wrote:


The rise of Suncoast Video anime section, and the advent of anime DVDs
===========================================================

Yes, some of you will no doubt remember Suncoast Video. It was a momentous time for us fans because finally, it looks like anime is going main stream. "Wow, there's an anime section!!" many of us exclaimed in joy. We could buy Sailor Moon episodes just like that. Wowzers.

However, the celebration was somewhat short-lived. Even though there are by then maybe (correct me if I'm wrong) 4 episodes per DVD instead of just 2 episodes per VHS tape, it was still EXPENSIVE.

Still, one big step at least for us North American otakus. Things were most definitely much better than before.


You forget columbia house's VHS tape of the month. I had both of the anime subscriptions, and built an extensive collection based on that (more on my "collection" or rather the lack thereof in the next comment). You got a lot of shit anime. Every other god damned tape was Slayers or Lodoss War, which padded out the subscription (and they got to choose what they sent... Oh Joy!). But you also got Ghost in the Shell, and they baited you by sending you Akira as your first movie, and every now and then there was a piece of gold in the shitpile.

Also, going back before that, there was Saturday Anime on the SciFi channel. the time block was nigh impossible to catch, but it was there and if you knew how to set the timer on your VCR, you could record the movies and watch them later. (usually with a shitton of censorship, and paradoxically A FUCKTON of phone sex line advertisements...)

That and Godzilla movies.... I think those two were mainly there because they were brand spanking new, and they just needed SOMETHING... ANYTHING really, to fill their broadcast time.

They would kill it off and bring it back from time to time...

Outside of that, you were limited to Sailor Moon or DBZ (and only the first 50 eps of either) in the morning cartoon blocks of certain channels. When Escaflowne and Card Captor Sakura were on Fox's Saturday cartoons (something kids these days NEVER experienced... yes, on Saturday mornings, almost every channel had a cartoon block and it was AWESOME).

Suncoast was key to getting anime though, and I remember getting their membership card so after buying a crapton of anime, I might somehow be able to get one either discounted or free... It never worked out in my favor though...



nanikore2 wrote:


The Easy Times begin: Downloading and torrenting anime episodes
=======================================================

Sure, when it began it was sorta kinda slow. I had to torrent more than a day to get just one episode. However, it was free and it was easy. Pretty soon it was more than just an episode a day, and these speed-subbers popped up left and right (The term "speed subber" goes back to at least the time of the Kenshin VHS fansubs, but it was more prevalent when torrenting started)

It was then, that I sorta started to lose interest in going to conventions. I mean, I can watch all I want at home. Times have definitely changed.

HOWEVER, it's still not even remotely as easy as it is TODAY because...


I MISS conventions. Real fucking conventions. Ones that had more to do with the viewing of anime with groups of people and less to do with panels and dealer's tables. I REALLY fucking miss the Big Apple Anime Festival.

What was at the heart of conventions just died for me. (and I've only been to two. Nevertheless, they just don't appeal to me because it feels more like selling me shitty merch and doing panels... And cosplay... Waaaaaay too professional cosplay. I miss old cosplay...)



nanikore2 wrote:


Here be streaming and simulcasts
=============================

"Seriously? Stop the stupid jokes, that'll never happen" would be my reaction if you told me years and years ago that "in the future" we'll watch new anime episodes at the same time the Japanese viewers get to watch them, and be translated, no less!

Am I living in a dream? Gotta pinch myself. No, nope... This is 2015.

What are these people nowadays complaining about, again? No, they haven't been through the times when all that you've got to "choose" from in the stores are hentai or border-hentai titles like La Blue Girl and Ninja Scroll because that's all the tiny overseas industry at the time were willing to take chances on.

I really want them to board a time machine back to late 80s / early 90s and stay there. They'd be happier. Or not.


I want to go back to the 90's for other reasons. Including better music, an easier time at making a decent wage, and none of the crazy ass social media flame wars.

I'm happy to give up some of the things about anime of old for the selection and diversity we get today... Except I have a lot of concerns about what streaming has done...... (next comment)
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Posted 10/26/15 , edited 10/15/16
There's a big problem with all of our content going the way of streaming and/or torrenting. (and yes, I'm talking about bootlegs and fansubs).

I'm not going to go into the declining age and maturity of characters and viewers (there used to be a lot more adult shows with adult characters with adult themes and honestly, adult content outside of gratuitous pantyshots and gore).

I'm not going to even go into the lack of variety in themes/genres and formats (the titles coming out are incredibly formulaic and you used to have a DIVERSE array of content within a genre. Like for example, Fantasy, {which I'm not a fan of really} had titles likethe high fantasy of Lodoss Wars, more gorey stuff like the original Berserk, light humor like Slayers or Drangon Half, and titles like Escaflowne which were more like today's stuff).

What I want to talk about is how anime today is incredibly ephemeral.

I can rattle off a whole list of old titles, and unfortunately, many of our younger viewers may only be able to recognize 5 or 6 of them, (for example, of the ones Iisted above for fantasy, how many of those titles do you think they've seen? ).

Although some of this may be due to generational differences, I cannot help think that the greater problem is that a lot of these titles simply cannot be found these days.

The focus on getting newer and newer content, combined with the focus on only licensing or producing what is popular NOW means that the creation of gaping holes in anime history are beginning to form. There's a disturbing amount of content that is here today, and gone tomorrow, or, in a case similar to netflix, titles that get big screen treatments, but then due to licensing issues, never make it to streams.

Anyone know where you can legally stream, for example, some of the older Studio Ghibli titles? Like Spirited Away, or Princess Mononoke? No? That's because streaming versions of these do not exist)

Thankfully, with hard copies, you theoretically could.

However, the new format of having your anime in the cloud means that less and less people are physically owning copies of anime titles, and less and less copies are around.And that means that in many cases, only ONE company may hold a copy of a title. And if, for example, CR decides to stop streaming a title, then that's it. There's no more access to that film or series. And because there's less access, there less people that know about it and less interest in it. Torrents aren't much better as files aren't backed up often, and when a torrent dies, so does the content it is sharing.


Unfortunately, before a torrent even dies, it has to be created, and a lot of those titles aren't getting uploaded, and physical copies are not being created or archived. Old format titles are either becoming discarded or, because of their new found rarity, in original format, are being sold on the secondary markets at astronomical prices.

Essentially, lack of physical copies and the disturbing trend to solely get our flicks from the great netherworld of the internet means that anime is actually disappearing.

And that, my friends, is scary.
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Posted 10/26/15
These kids talk about #thestruggleisreal bs lol. They don't know our struggles. That shit was real.
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Posted 10/26/15 , edited 10/27/15

serifsansserif wrote:
As much as people complain about shitty dubbing, it wasn't THAT bad. It only seems bad compared to now because of everyone's complaints. Back then it was what it was. And lest we forget about changing dialogue for localization.... because anime was so niche, you got what you got. Most of the time you got dubs, and the scripts were changed somewhat to make it easier to digest for the american audience. The dubs vs. subs argument didn't really exist except outside of some REALLY REALLY REALLY hardcore fans (which also, probably were the ones that knew the language, watched raws, and worked on fansubs). Subtitles weren't much better with the whole language translation bit. My old Escaflowne VHS tapes had "Sempai" turned into "Amano" (or whatever the character Htomi was always calling out to that wasn't Van). It was just par for the course.


Point 1:

It´s true that some companies changed dialogues, and that's a problem. A big one. I will never deny it.

Changing senpai to a name was, and is, correct. There no concept in english for senpai. It's unnatural in engllish to use it. Everybody call others by the given name, or surname in some cases.
And a translation should be as literal as it can be unless it start to sound unnatural in the language of the listener. "You have to translate the message not the words."

Fansubs keep those japanese honorifics due fans pressure. But that's not a correct translation. Like it or not.


serifsansserif wrote:
Release times meant whenever the fuck they felt like it. About 5 years ago even, I remember a voice actor arguing on youtube in a convention hall that the time to get the dubs and even the subs done was about making sure they were "quality" and "more accurate" etc. etc.... Just excuses, as you can tell by today's simulcasts (same day subs? what about that "quality" they talked about before!?!?!) and quicker release times. They simply had you by the balls before. (and that's why I HATE the legal methods of old. They had you by the balls and they KNEW it...)



Point 2:

Quality is really important, and it really takes time if you want a perfect work.

Crunchyroll has each anime and dorama a week earlier to work. Keep in mind that nowaday is easier to do all those works. But it's just a week.

Sometimes Crunchyroll subs, have mistakes. It´s not so uncommon as they only have a week to work, so mistakes will pop up from time to time.

Also DVD and BD legal subs cannot have subtitles on signboards, tags and the like, and CR do them, like a fansub. Legally they shouldn´t. And the proccess to do DVD/BD subs differ a bit from what you see here or in a fansub.

Keep in mind too that CR do not do dubbing anime. I don´t know if CR have dubs, but if they do have dubs, I bet those are from previous releases from other companies. Dubbing takes time too...

DVD and BD works have usually, better quality than CR or a fansub.


Thankfully we have now NEW legal methods, wich made everything faster.

But making things faster should't mean to lose quality due the available speed.

We should re-learn to be patient, to have something with real quality.


Including re-learn to be patients with fansubs.

Some fansubs work so fast, their releases are most of the time, pathetic. And they have to realease an updated version (if they realize they need it, of course). Just because the fans learned that is OK to not to wait. And they complaint and complaint...

I always want to shout to those fans:

Let them work at their pace, as they are fans like you, not your servants.

Most fansub's translators are people who are currently learning japanese, not professionals. Let them work as slow as they need to do a good job, please.

A week they need, a week should be.

If you don't let them, they'll loose interest in it, so less chances to see the anime you want, subbed.


P.S: I don't like "fansubs" that steal CR, Funi, or other's subtitles. Those groups cannot be called fansubs as they do not do their own translations and fansubbing...

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Posted 10/26/15 , edited 10/26/15

serifsansserif wrote:

There's a big problem with all of our content going the way of streaming and/or torrenting. (and yes, I'm talking about bootlegs and fansubs).

I'm not going to go into the declining age and maturity of characters and viewers (there used to be a lot more adult shows with adult characters with adult themes and honestly, adult content outside of gratuitous pantyshots and gore).

I'm not going to even go into the lack of variety in themes/genres and formats (the titles coming out are incredibly formulaic and you used to have a DIVERSE array of content within a genre. Like for example, Fantasy, {which I'm not a fan of really} had titles likethe high fantasy of Lodoss Wars, more gorey stuff like the original Berserk, light humor like Slayers or Drangon Half, and titles like Escaflowne which were more like today's stuff).

What I want to talk about is how anime today is incredibly ephemeral.

I can rattle off a whole list of old titles, and unfortunately, many of our younger viewers may only be able to recognize 5 or 6 of them, (for example, of the ones Iisted above for fantasy, how many of those titles do you think they've seen? ).

Although some of this may be due to generational differences, I cannot help think that the greater problem is that a lot of these titles simply cannot be found these days.

The focus on getting newer and newer content, combined with the focus on only licensing or producing what is popular NOW means that the creation of gaping holes in anime history are beginning to form. There's a disturbing amount of content that is here today, and gone tomorrow, or, in a case similar to netflix, titles that get big screen treatments, but then due to licensing issues, never make it to streams.

Anyone know where you can legally stream, for example, some of the older Studio Ghibli titles? Like Spirited Away, or Princess Mononoke? No? That's because streaming versions of these do not exist)

Thankfully, with hard copies, you theoretically could.

However, the new format of having your anime in the cloud means that less and less people are physically owning copies of anime titles, and less and less copies are around.And that means that in many cases, only ONE company may hold a copy of a title. And if, for example, CR decides to stop streaming a title, then that's it. There's no more access to that film or series. And because there's less access, there less people that know about it and less interest in it. Torrents aren't much better as files aren't backed up often, and when a torrent dies, so does the content it is sharing.


Unfortunately, before a torrent even dies, it has to be created, and a lot of those titles aren't getting uploaded, and physical copies are not being created or archived. Old format titles are either becoming discarded or, because of their new found rarity, in original format, are being sold on the secondary markets at astronomical prices.

Essentially, lack of physical copies and the disturbing trend to solely get our flicks from the great netherworld of the internet means that anime is actually disappearing.

And that, my friends, is scary.


There used to be as less "adult oriented outside pantyshots and gore" shows back then as there are now...

Fantasy actually had a boom during 90's in Japan... Thanks to the RPG and TRPG (Table RPG, as they call the pen and paper roleplaying games).

Also internet helped to avoid some old anime disappearences, as it helped to spread its popularity... It´s true that is hard to find some oldies, sure, and only a few are lost, until the rights owners choose to air them again, on TV or the internet...

And inside this group, a small one, maybe really got lost.

You know, the original film of the Fist of the North Star, the cinema version, got lost due a fire on the place the videos where stored in the 80´s. What we can see is only the home edition which got some scenes deleted, and supposedly had less violence. This could have been prevented with the technology we have nowadays....
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Posted 10/26/15 , edited 10/15/16
Yes, I am both spoiled and grateful.
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Posted 10/26/15 , edited 10/15/16
Hmmm. How are the fans (the paying consumers) aka the customers "spoiled"? In a socialist " utiopia" the people are mushrooms happy to be fed shit but in the real world things are a tad different.
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