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Post Reply U.S. meaning for "equality" unrealistic?
Posted 10/16/15
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Posted 10/16/15

haikinka wrote:

We should be allowed equal opportunities, but not forget that we are not all actually equal.


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Posted 10/16/15
Its funny at work, sometimes(not always) i see women who struggle to do the job, or they complain alot or they get special treatment or extra help. Of course if shes attractive all the men will go out of their way to help.
Yet we are supposed to be equal, we get payed the same...
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Posted 10/16/15
The law regards us as equal for simplicity's sake (and maybe fairness) so we are easily dealt with and don't clog up the system with endless little differences.

Legally speaking, yes, we are supposed to be treated equally. But, in reality, I do not believe all people are equal in actual worth.
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Posted 10/16/15
Equality of opportunity isn't enough for America's liberals, they demand equality of results. That is the difference.
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Posted 10/17/15
Well, what I have to say is a real answer, I at the very least took the time to think about what you said and to give you the dignity of being taken seriously. No, I don't want to paint you into the racist that you say you're not. But my point remains, the fact that you want people to be more aware of how they are different makes you a racist, and I hope it gets you.

If you want to functionally acknowledge that people have genetic differences, there will be times when it's okay, such as weight tiers in sports, and times when it's not okay, like black people having some marginally higher percentage of resistance to UV rays. If you want to put people on unequal footing functionally, at the very least you need to have significant factors you can point to, such that you can create a case based on facts that will have a severe impact on reality(again we can point at weight tiers, or maybe if we're stretching it the fact that females on average have less upper body strength than men).

Let me explain why what you're suggesting is being met with such outrage, and why many others have a different opinion than you. You see, in cases where differences are insignificant or diminutive to a point where there is no functional difference, humans have a tendency to treat them as if they do no exist. This is for the best, at least for people interested in getting along with each other. People subconsciously have biases, and can easily tell the differences between each other. To say that people should be forced to recognize differences between each other that stem from genetic traits, and furthermore acknowledge them officially, is a type of behavior that is very akin to racism( I don't know what you want to call it, since you're saying it's not racism).

Nothing good comes out of acknowledging petty differences. Functionally speaking, all of the races are exactly identical, because all humans are within .01% genetically identical( yes I mean including all races and both genders). Let me track back to your claim that my idea that dieting is more important than genetics is a sad idea, by pointing out that sumo wrestlers are huge asian men. This is a classic example of how what you might think of as small Japanese lads, if eating a heavy diet, can in fact be large and strong much like Americans who also eat heavy diets. Let me also say that averages are also more important than general genetic traits, and less important than individuals. Some Americans are short, skinny, and small, to the point where the average Asian is bigger, wider, and taller. You can point out that on average Americans are taller, but it is only an average and not always true for each person.

So with all that to work off of, let me point out why your attitude is not commonly accepted. You say that you want people to acknowledge their differences, but as it turns out, people's differences come out to really being individual traits. To categorize them as racial differences is racism, because the differences are not true for every member of that race, unless it is a trait that is insignificant, and therefore no longer worth making a fuss over. At that point, you're just being a stickler. Let me paint a picture for you: Me and my black friend hang out. I completely forget about the fact that he is black because it doesn't matter to me at all. This makes me happy because I want us as friends to be as relatable as possible, to the point where his physical appearance no longer matters at all. Then you come along and want me to acknowledge the fact that he is black, and I should greet him everyday, and he should remind me that he's black and somehow remembering our differences will make us happy. I greatly reject your hypothesis that people being different makes them happy when they want to get along. People are all equal, whatever their genetic traits may be, unless there is some actual important functional reason that they are different. To point at something so unimportant as "on average larger", or "on average darker", or "on average smarter", is just racism, unless, as I've made clear several times, it's for sport or war. So yes, the American "equal" isn't to be taken literally in certain situations, but in our country officially: "All men are created equal." If you don't like it, feel free to roam the despised purgatory between "not officially racist" and "neutral unbiased prejudice", and when you're ready to close your eyes and accept everyone blindly for the human that they are rather than the physical body that they have I will be waiting for you with opens arms.
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Posted 10/17/15 , edited 10/17/15

Insanerino wrote:

Well, what I have to say is a real answer, I at the very least took the time to think about what you said and to give you the dignity of being taken seriously. No, I don't want to paint you into the racist that you say you're not. But my point remains, the fact that you want people to be more aware of how they are different makes you a racist, and I hope it gets you.
I don't care if people are aware or not. I simply do not want people to boldly deny the truth when it comes up. If that is bigotry, color me racist.


If you want to functionally acknowledge that people have genetic differences, there will be times when it's okay, such as weight tiers in sports, and times when it's not okay, like black people having some marginally higher percentage of resistance to UV rays. If you want to put people on unequal footing functionally, at the very least you need to have significant factors you can point to, such that you can create a case based on facts that will have a severe impact on reality(again we can point at weight tiers, or maybe if we're stretching it the fact that females on average have less upper body strength than men).

Let me explain why what you're suggesting is being met with such outrage, and why many others have a different opinion than you. You see, in cases where differences are insignificant or diminutive to a point where there is no functional difference, humans have a tendency to treat them as if they do no exist. This is for the best, at least for people interested in getting along with each other. People subconsciously have biases, and can easily tell the differences between each other. To say that people should be forced to recognize differences between each other that stem from genetic traits, and furthermore acknowledge them officially, is a type of behavior that is very akin to racism( I don't know what you want to call it, since you're saying it's not racism).
Which is fine. Except, many times they are not diminutive at all. Many times they are quite obvious, but we deny and make excuses. The truth is the truth.



Nothing good comes out of acknowledging petty differences. Functionally speaking, all of the races are exactly identical, because all humans are within .01% genetically identical( yes I mean including all races and both genders).
Simply deceptive, and actually false.
Genome-wide variation from one human being to another can be up to 0.5% (99.5% similarity)

- Chimpanzees are 96% to 98% similar to humans, depending on how it is calculated.

- Cats have 90% of homologous genes with humans, 82% with dogs, 80% with cows, 79% with chimpanzees, 69% with rats and 67% with mice.

- Cows (Bos taurus) are 80% genetically similar to humans

- 75% of mouse genes have equivalents in humans, 90% of the mouse genome could be lined up with a region on the human genome. 99% of mouse genes turn out to have analogues in humans

- The fruit fly (Drosophila) shares about 60% of its DNA with humans.

- About 60% of chicken genes correspond to a similar human gene.


Sooo... ummm... what?


Let me track back to your claim that my idea that dieting is more important than genetics is a sad idea, by pointing out that sumo wrestlers are huge asian men. This is a classic example of how what you might think of as small Japanese lads, if eating a heavy diet, can in fact be large and strong much like Americans who also eat heavy diets. Let me also say that averages are also more important than general genetic traits, and less important than individuals. Some Americans are short, skinny, and small, to the point where the average Asian is bigger, wider, and taller. You can point out that on average Americans are taller, but it is only an average and not always true for each person.
I believe I said that the average is not always true of each person. Yeah... I said that a lot, actually. However, if it is true of the average, it is also usually true for the greatest of the value in each group... in this case that value is height.
So what are you trying to accuse me of, exactly? Also, "much like" is not the same. Point blank.


So with all that to work off of, let me point out why your attitude is not commonly accepted. You say that you want people to acknowledge their differences, but as it turns out, people's differences come out to really being individual traits. To categorize them as racial differences is racism,
No. No it isn't. Saying that someone is inferior/superior is racism. Hate is racism. Discrimination is racism. Judging someone based on a stereotype, or even a fact that I have stated, before knowing who they are as an individual... that's racism. However, acknowledging that differences exist... that's just accepting reality. Now, if I based all my judgments on that, before knowing people...yeah, I'd be a racist, but I don't.

because the differences are not true for every member of that race, unless it is a trait that is insignificant, and therefore no longer worth making a fuss over. At that point, you're just being a stickler. Let me paint a picture for you: Me and my black friend hang out. I completely forget about the fact that he is black because it doesn't matter to me at all. This makes me happy because I want us as friends to be as relatable as possible, to the point where his physical appearance no longer matters at all. Then you come along and want me to acknowledge the fact that he is black, and I should greet him everyday, and he should remind me that he's black and somehow remembering our differences will make us happy. I greatly reject your hypothesis that people being different makes them happy when they want to get along. People are all equal, whatever their genetic traits may be,
Yep. Which I posted in the OP. But, I guess you were too busy typing this to read anything.

unless there is some actual important functional reason that they are different. To point at something so unimportant as "on average larger", or "on average darker", or "on average smarter", is just racism, unless, as I've made clear several times, it's for sport or war.
I think you're really narrowing down the possibilities in which it might come up. BUT, that really isn't the point. The only thing I really want is for people to stop denying the differences exist. Which you are already doing, by the way... while accusing me of being racist. Yet, that is all I want. So... you are doing exactly what I asked, and you are not racist, yet I am racist? OKAY then. Gonna let you work out the logic of that on your own.

So yes, the American "equal" isn't to be taken literally in certain situations, but in our country officially: "All men are created equal." If you don't like it, feel free to roam the despised purgatory between "not officially racist" and "neutral unbiased prejudice", and when you're ready to close your eyes and accept everyone blindly for the human that they are rather than the physical body that they have I will be waiting for you with opens arms.
Yeah... I pretty much stated several times that I'm completely for equality. That really is not an issue. My issue is people equating "equal" to "exactly the same." Basically, just don't be like "No way... that's racist." when it comes up that white people have a lower bone density and therefore a greater risk for stress fractures.

I appreciate you participating, unfortunately your reasoning is simply nonsense, and not at all factual.

Feel free to call me a racist, though, if it makes you feel better. I am confident that reasonable people of all demographics can see the truth.

Cheers.
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Posted 10/17/15 , edited 10/17/15
Just want to point out that Tay-Sachs disease mostly affects Eastern Europeans of Jewish decent, Cycstic fibrosis is much more prevalent among Caucasians than other races, and sickle-cell anemia is much more common in black people. Recognizing these differences in races can help medical professionals to know to look for symptoms of the disease much more easily.

I'm sure it's not limited to those three diseases alone, but I'm not a medical professional. Still, it's a great place for those who say you should treat someone differently according to race to start looking. ;)


EDIT: But, totally racist, neh?
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Posted 10/17/15
We aren't all equal. Some people are smarter... some people are more athletic... some people are more artistic... some can cook and some can't. Equality, in this sense, means that we are all on equal footing despite those differences. But... you're not going to see someone who stinks at sports on the field making millions... or even their lower paid positions because not everyone in sports makes millions. So... my question is what makes sports superior to pretty much every other profession here? Most other businesses have to bypass qualified individuals to hire people that aren't so qualified for the sake of that equality.

For the record... I'm white as Casper and can't swim... even though... I was thrown in pools as a child... and had to be rescued... and later in life people would push me in because they didn't believe me. Then they would have to rescue me. I farkin sink... I can't help it. Telling me that I just have to move my feet a certain way to tread water never helped... then I was just moving my feet while I was sinking.

You'll never convince me that I'm equal with rapists... pedophiles... murderers. Those types of people need to be squashed from existence.
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Posted 10/17/15 , edited 10/17/15
Consider yourself colored racist. By the way, that muscle mass and bone density study about Africans isn't peer reviewed, which basically means it's invalid. Also I stand by that all people are 99.99% genetically similar, not really sure where you got your numbers from. Interesting to see how you default to calling me nonsense just because I disagree with your point of view. This seems disrespectful. You notice that I never insulted you nor your arguments, except to say that I found some of the things you said to be racist, which you admit to. Can I have the respect that I've shown you, instead of being called "nonsensical"? I didn't come here to make you angry or degrade you, I took the time to say all of this to show you that there is a different way. If you insist that you're correct, then by all means that is your decision, but the least you could do is not treat other people like idiots, especially when they make an effort to construe a coherent argument for the sake of your own amusement.
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Posted 10/17/15 , edited 10/17/15

Insanerino wrote:

Well, what I have to say is a real answer, I at the very least took the time to think about what you said and to give you the dignity of being taken seriously. No, I don't want to paint you into the racist that you say you're not. But my point remains, the fact that you want people to be more aware of how they are different makes you a racist, and I hope it gets you.

If you want to functionally acknowledge that people have genetic differences, there will be times when it's okay, such as weight tiers in sports, and times when it's not okay, like black people having some marginally higher percentage of resistance to UV rays. If you want to put people on unequal footing functionally, at the very least you need to have significant factors you can point to, such that you can create a case based on facts that will have a severe impact on reality(again we can point at weight tiers, or maybe if we're stretching it the fact that females on average have less upper body strength than men).

Let me explain why what you're suggesting is being met with such outrage, and why many others have a different opinion than you. You see, in cases where differences are insignificant or diminutive to a point where there is no functional difference, humans have a tendency to treat them as if they do no exist. This is for the best, at least for people interested in getting along with each other. People subconsciously have biases, and can easily tell the differences between each other. To say that people should be forced to recognize differences between each other that stem from genetic traits, and furthermore acknowledge them officially, is a type of behavior that is very akin to racism( I don't know what you want to call it, since you're saying it's not racism).

Nothing good comes out of acknowledging petty differences. Functionally speaking, all of the races are exactly identical, because all humans are within .01% genetically identical( yes I mean including all races and both genders). Let me track back to your claim that my idea that dieting is more important than genetics is a sad idea, by pointing out that sumo wrestlers are huge asian men. This is a classic example of how what you might think of as small Japanese lads, if eating a heavy diet, can in fact be large and strong much like Americans who also eat heavy diets. Let me also say that averages are also more important than general genetic traits, and less important than individuals. Some Americans are short, skinny, and small, to the point where the average Asian is bigger, wider, and taller. You can point out that on average Americans are taller, but it is only an average and not always true for each person.

So with all that to work off of, let me point out why your attitude is not commonly accepted. You say that you want people to acknowledge their differences, but as it turns out, people's differences come out to really being individual traits. To categorize them as racial differences is racism, because the differences are not true for every member of that race, unless it is a trait that is insignificant, and therefore no longer worth making a fuss over. At that point, you're just being a stickler. Let me paint a picture for you: Me and my black friend hang out. I completely forget about the fact that he is black because it doesn't matter to me at all. This makes me happy because I want us as friends to be as relatable as possible, to the point where his physical appearance no longer matters at all. Then you come along and want me to acknowledge the fact that he is black, and I should greet him everyday, and he should remind me that he's black and somehow remembering our differences will make us happy. I greatly reject your hypothesis that people being different makes them happy when they want to get along. People are all equal, whatever their genetic traits may be, unless there is some actual important functional reason that they are different. To point at something so unimportant as "on average larger", or "on average darker", or "on average smarter", is just racism, unless, as I've made clear several times, it's for sport or war. So yes, the American "equal" isn't to be taken literally in certain situations, but in our country officially: "All men are created equal." If you don't like it, feel free to roam the despised purgatory between "not officially racist" and "neutral unbiased prejudice", and when you're ready to close your eyes and accept everyone blindly for the human that they are rather than the physical body that they have I will be waiting for you with opens arms.


Clap, clap. Awesome!

Loved it.
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Posted 10/17/15 , edited 10/17/15

Insanerino wrote:

Consider yourself colored racist. By the way, that muscle mass and bone density study about Africans isn't peer reviewed, which basically means it's invalid.
Which one? It's pretty well documented in medical studies.

AS someone else already posted: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1863580/.

Also I stand by that all people are 99.99% genetically similar, not really sure where you got your numbers from. Interesting to see how you default to calling me nonsense just because I disagree with your point of view.
Only nonsense because it simply not factual. Disagreeing is fine. Outright lying to make a false argument is nonsense.

This seems disrespectful. You notice that I never insulted you nor your arguments, except to say that I found some of the things you said to be racist, which you admit to.
No, actually you started by calling me racist. I have not admitted to anything I have said being racist, because I have not said anything racist. Reading comprehension, please?

Can I have the respect that I've shown you, instead of being called "nonsensical"? I didn't come here to make you angry or degrade you, I took the time to say all of this to show you that there is a different way. If you insist that you're correct, then by all means that is your decision, but the least you could do is not treat other people like idiots, especially when they make an effort to construe a coherent argument for the sake of your own amusement.

You say there is a different way? OKAY. So you are saying that outright lying to ourselves and others is a good thing.

Again, I love equality. I simply do not like when people deny truths in favor of feelings, when it is in no way necessary to accomplish equality.


Also, let me be clear that I don't believe in adjusting the way people are viewed or treated due to any of these things. As I have said several times before, the thought of racial inferiority/superiority is just as absurd as lying that differences exist, and any arguments to the contrary are usually baseless.

And, at the end of the day, almost all racial differences are negligible, in terms of giving an advantage or disadvantage.

I've said all this before, though. Keep calling me a racist! Have fun with it.
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Posted 10/17/15 , edited 10/17/15
Also, let me explain why I view this dishonesty as an issue:

First, I'm going back to the swimming/bone density example. Why do I keep using that example? Because it is well documented and factual and directly concerns an established stereotype. (Again, I'm not saying that stereotypes are inherently true, so please do not take it that way.) In these ways, it is probably the best example to make the argument, and I believe in consistency, so I continue to use it.

So, black people have more difficulty swimming than other races due to less buoyancy caused by higher bone densities. I'm not saying that black people cannot swim. I'm not saying there are not extremely proficient swimmers who are black. Should you judge a person based on this? Should you stereotype? Absolutely not, because that is wrong, and racist, to a degree. BUT, for the average this is very true. That's simple fact.

But why is denying this as a fact a problem? Why does that denial not help us achieve equality?

Because, when something becomes apparent, only a small few can actually convince themselves that it is not true. So, those telling us to deny that the difference exists are not achieving anything except alienating people who see reality. That's always a bad position to be in. In fact, that alienation can actually cause hate.

They continue to see a truth, without knowing the reason behind it. People around them deny it, rather than address it, but it does not make that truth go away. That alienation breeds hate. Then, on top of that, the lack of understanding on the cause of the difference creates the mentality that this quality makes a particular group inferior. In this case, people who see the truth but fail to understand it, are alienated because of it, and slowly begin to see black people having more difficulty swimming as a universal weakness. That denial causes the very thing we are trying to prevent, racism.

However, if you reverse that, and approach everything with honesty... no one becomes alienated. We're not telling black people they cannot swim, we're understanding why it may be challenging, which allows us to understand that they are still very capable of becoming proficient swimmers. On top of that, we also see that this is caused by something rather advantageous in other ways... which changes the way it is viewed from superiority/inferiority to a simple difference.


So, in my opinion, an honest approach is the best approach, if you actually want to achieve equality and diminish racism.
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Posted 10/17/15
I know. I've heard some people who want to get people to stop using "him" or "her" and only use words like "them" or "Their" in order to be gender neutral and I just find that dumb as hell.

You aren't treating people equally by pretending they are all the same. You are only ignoring what makes them unique or different.

Of course you shouldn't spread stereotypes or treat people as lesser for any reason. But going to extremes is NEVER a good thing. This world isn't black and white and you just just fix a massive issue like equality by going "lets just pretend everyone is exactly the same". That isn't possible and it's not how equality even works.

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Posted 10/17/15

Insanerino wrote:

Consider yourself colored racist. By the way, that muscle mass and bone density study about Africans isn't peer reviewed, which basically means it's invalid. Also I stand by that all people are 99.99% genetically similar, not really sure where you got your numbers from. Interesting to see how you default to calling me nonsense just because I disagree with your point of view. This seems disrespectful. You notice that I never insulted you nor your arguments, except to say that I found some of the things you said to be racist, which you admit to. Can I have the respect that I've shown you, instead of being called "nonsensical"? I didn't come here to make you angry or degrade you, I took the time to say all of this to show you that there is a different way. If you insist that you're correct, then by all means that is your decision, but the least you could do is not treat other people like idiots, especially when they make an effort to construe a coherent argument for the sake of your own amusement.


If everybody is the same, to 99.99% then how can people be gendered and raced by bones alone?

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