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Post Reply Leela's law
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Posted 11/1/15 , edited 11/1/15

Morbidhanson wrote:

Non-infringement on freedom is not the only thing to consider when deciding whether something is okay. There needs to be more. It's like saying that not going to school is not an infringement of freedom so it is always okay. Include more factors and address the elephant in the room. What effect does death have upon people and those close to the deceased?


I can explain the whole "death" question rather easilly... For one, let's look at the victim for example, Leela Alicorn... His parents still believe in religion, do not regret the use of conversion therapy, and continue to call him Joshua and refer to him with masculine pronouns... They stand by their principles regardless of the fact that their child committed suicide because they would not waver on their beliefs.
That's why I promote my own brand of self-conversion therapy and I'd give the same advice to an 8 year old kid without losing a moment of sleep the night after seeing his face on TV with a rope around his neck... I'm not evil, I just believe in standing for principles.

Also, let's look at ethics as a math problem... If the people who love you make it wrong to commit suicide then doesn't that mean that all bullying-related suicides are good? If the number of people who hate your outweigh the number of people who love you, wouldn' you be morally obligated to commit suicide?
I don't think so.... Since I believe the individual is 100% responsible for applying value to ones own life.

Also, I agree with restricting conversion therapy from minors, so I don't think that "truancy laws" are a good comparison, since those laws don't apply to adults.





PapaGregory wrote:


silversongwriter wrote:


PapaGregory wrote:

There is a difference between supporting freedom of speech and supporting phony psychology techniques that are more about abuse then helping people.


And there's a difference between restricting things to minors and banning something altogether. Treating your kids illness with homeopathy is abuse, because homeopathy is bullshit. However, should it be illegal to make homeopathic remedies altogether?


Yeah because again they don't work, its the same reason why doctors can't prescribe leeches if you are giving medical techniques that would harm a person severely in a psychological and physical since then it should't be illegal no matter if there is consent


I believe doctors cannot prescribe homeopathy as medicine, that should be illegal, I agree with you. However, I think the only crime is false advertisement. However, should it be illegal for them to do it altogether? Should stores ban homeopathic remedies even if it's labelled as non-scientific?

How is that any different than banning cigarettes... In fact, perfect analogy right there... It's legal to buy and sell cigarettes, however, it's no longer legal to prescribe them medically? Why can't we look at drugs, conversion therapy, and alternative medicine the same way?

And why is a person being harmed or dying such a big deal if it happens with consent? What makes human life so valuable that it's worth stripping the very individuals you claim to protect of their freedom?

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Posted 11/1/15

silversongwriter wrote:

They claim to see the future though...


If they make specific, false claims, they can be thrown in jail. Fraud is a serious crime.


silversongwriter wrote:

So why is it a big deal though? So what it results in them making the choice to die... It's not resulting in anything objectively negative


Do you think clinical depression is somehow not a big deal?

Many people who commit suicide are not just stupid teenagers (though idiotic teens are the most common).
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Posted 11/1/15

The_anti_coagulant wrote:


PapaGregory wrote:

There is a difference between supporting freedom of speech and supporting phony psychology techniques that are more about abuse then helping people.


I don't disagree but do you believe congress has the right to make that decision for you? I believe I should have the opportunity to vote on this. The real issue is not the content of the law but how it will be passed without the citizens of the country being involved. There is a famous quote that talks about people not caring about laws that affect others until people don't stand with them. I don't want this country to become like that but it might be too late. If someone like Trump stepped into the ring it could just as easily turn into a country forcing this therapy on all.

I don't wish for you to change what you believe about the therapy but at least understand that it should go through the hands of the citizens. Legislation doesn't change hate and misunderstanding. Education does.


Okay but congress isn't making a decision for anyone they are just stating that this certain type therapy is illegal because it does harm to people, it basically abuse that has no good side effects.
Posted 11/1/15
it's all about timing and depending on how many people are for the use of conversion therapy. since it's probably not a lot of people and the rest have no real stake in it...
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Posted 11/1/15
Are we talking about Futurama?
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Posted 11/1/15

saksiss wrote:

Are we talking about Futurama?


I wish or at least Rick and Morty
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Posted 11/1/15 , edited 11/1/15

ProfessorFaust wrote:

Do you think clinical depression is somehow not a big deal?

Many people who commit suicide are not just stupid teenagers (though idiotic teens are the most common).


It is, but I'm not sure if we're going about stopping it the right way though... technically the entire of religion of christianity can make kids wanna kill themselves.
Imagine being trans and having to live with thinking God is gonna send you to hell for it?
With or without conversion therapy, LGBT people will suffer from religion? Should religion be banned?



saksiss wrote:

Are we talking about Futurama?


http://www.inquisitr.com/1715736/transgender-teen-leelah-acorn-kills-himself-by-walking-in-front-of-semi-truck-blames-christian-parents-in-viral-suicide-note/
No,we're talking about this guy

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Posted 11/1/15

BlueOni wrote:

Well...as I understand it the frequently concurrent depression and anxiety (which can be exacerbated by abuse and discrimination) contribute most to suicide risk, though that's not to downplay the severity of one's dysphoria as a potentially contributing factor. One thing I would point out, however, is that the APA distinguishes gender dysphoria and transgender identification, with the former being recognised as a disorder and the latter not.

You're basically on point, though.


Attention deficits and obsessive-compulsive behaviors are not considered diseases until they significantly impact quality of life. A comparison should be drawn to body integrity identity disorder which involves the delusion that one should be disabled (i.e. by amputation), since individual human brains do not have a sex (sex not sexual orientation). I don't really care if people want to pursue body modification as long as it is not dangerous or debilitating to do so.
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Posted 11/1/15

PapaGregory wrote:


The_anti_coagulant wrote:


PapaGregory wrote:

There is a difference between supporting freedom of speech and supporting phony psychology techniques that are more about abuse then helping people.


I don't disagree but do you believe congress has the right to make that decision for you? I believe I should have the opportunity to vote on this. The real issue is not the content of the law but how it will be passed without the citizens of the country being involved. There is a famous quote that talks about people not caring about laws that affect others until people don't stand with them. I don't want this country to become like that but it might be too late. If someone like Trump stepped into the ring it could just as easily turn into a country forcing this therapy on all.

I don't wish for you to change what you believe about the therapy but at least understand that it should go through the hands of the citizens. Legislation doesn't change hate and misunderstanding. Education does.


Okay but congress isn't making a decision for anyone they are just stating that this certain type therapy is illegal because it does harm to people, it basically abuse that has no good side effects.


When congress and the supreme court make these decisions, they become precedents.

If we use your statement "this certain type therapy is illegal because it does harm to people, it basically abuse that has no good side effects."

Replace the word therapy with:

Sugar
Caffeine
R-Rated movies
Mature video games
Anime....
Pro-Wrestling
MMA
Whatever is the flavor of the month

It is a slippery slope.


severticas wrote:

it's all about timing and depending on how many people are for the use of conversion therapy. since it's probably not a lot of people and the rest have no real stake in it...


Severticas is also right. A federal law should not be handed out for one family. Nothing should be forced on anyone. But that is exactly what this law will do. People act like they don't have a choice but there is always a choice. This is not something that can fixed by a ban. This country is simply choosing not to educate its citizens. This is a state or even a community problem. Society needs to be more protective of our children. There should never be a time you don't know someone is contemplating suicide or depressed. I can tell when my sister hasn't had breakfast from 700 miles away via text. People just need to stop ignoring their problems. I think everyone needs therapy, but only if they choose it or it won't work anyway.

I didn't know much about conversion therapy before today, but if people choose it it is their choice. The most this law should do is ban forced enrollment.
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Posted 11/1/15 , edited 11/1/15

The_anti_coagulant

severticas wrote:

it's all about timing and depending on how many people are for the use of conversion therapy. since it's probably not a lot of people and the rest have no real stake in it...


Severticas is also right. A federal law should not be handed out for one family. Nothing should be forced on anyone. But that is exactly what this law will do. People act like they don't have a choice but there is always a choice. This is not something that can fixed by a ban. This country is simply choosing not to educate its citizens. This is a state or even a community problem. Society needs to be more protective of our children. There should never be a time you don't know someone is contemplating suicide or depressed. I can tell when my sister hasn't had breakfast from 700 miles away via text. People just need to stop ignoring their problems. I think everyone needs therapy, but only if they choose it or it won't work anyway.

I didn't know much about conversion therapy before today, but if people choose it it is their choice. The most this law should do is ban forced enrollment.


Pretty much agree with both of the above. Though I will say that while society as a whole tends to try and be protective of everything, it's done in a PC manner and caters less to actual health and more to petty emotions.

Personal responsibility. Two words people need to learn and enforce for themselves.

No amount of crying or pointing fingers is going to change the fact that people make their own choices, regardless of how much you want to blame something/someone else. The LGBT community is no exception to this. People need to stop being weak and learn to handle reality. The world is a harsh place to live in. Learn to deal with it or you just end up giving up like this Leela kid did.

That's as nice as I can put it.

The whole therapy crap is pointless though. Let people be whatever they want to be.
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Posted 11/1/15
Ban what you will, the practise will still continue.

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Posted 11/1/15

dotsforlife wrote:


The_anti_coagulant

severticas wrote:

it's all about timing and depending on how many people are for the use of conversion therapy. since it's probably not a lot of people and the rest have no real stake in it...


Severticas is also right. A federal law should not be handed out for one family. Nothing should be forced on anyone. But that is exactly what this law will do. People act like they don't have a choice but there is always a choice. This is not something that can fixed by a ban. This country is simply choosing not to educate its citizens. This is a state or even a community problem. Society needs to be more protective of our children. There should never be a time you don't know someone is contemplating suicide or depressed. I can tell when my sister hasn't had breakfast from 700 miles away via text. People just need to stop ignoring their problems. I think everyone needs therapy, but only if they choose it or it won't work anyway.

I didn't know much about conversion therapy before today, but if people choose it it is their choice. The most this law should do is ban forced enrollment.


Pretty much agree with both of the above. Though I will say that society as a whole tends to try and be protective of everything, it's done in a PC manner and caters less to actual health and more to petty emotions.

Personal responsibility. Two words people need to learn and enforce for themselves.

No amount of crying or pointing fingers is going to change the fact that people make their own choices, regardless of how much you want to blame something/someone else. The LGBT community is no exception to this.


Okay but there are factors when it comes to suicide and depression and conversion therapy tends to lead those things also when you say PC manner Conversion Therapy does fit into that bill when it comes petty emotions
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Posted 11/1/15 , edited 11/1/15

The_anti_coagulant wrote:


PapaGregory wrote:


The_anti_coagulant wrote:


PapaGregory wrote:

There is a difference between supporting freedom of speech and supporting phony psychology techniques that are more about abuse then helping people.


I don't disagree but do you believe congress has the right to make that decision for you? I believe I should have the opportunity to vote on this. The real issue is not the content of the law but how it will be passed without the citizens of the country being involved. There is a famous quote that talks about people not caring about laws that affect others until people don't stand with them. I don't want this country to become like that but it might be too late. If someone like Trump stepped into the ring it could just as easily turn into a country forcing this therapy on all.

I don't wish for you to change what you believe about the therapy but at least understand that it should go through the hands of the citizens. Legislation doesn't change hate and misunderstanding. Education does.


Okay but congress isn't making a decision for anyone they are just stating that this certain type therapy is illegal because it does harm to people, it basically abuse that has no good side effects.


When congress and the supreme court make these decisions, they become precedents.

If we use your statement "this certain type therapy is illegal because it does harm to people, it basically abuse that has no good side effects."

Replace the word therapy with:

Sugar
Caffeine
R-Rated movies
Mature video games
Anime....
Pro-Wrestling
MMA
Whatever is the flavor of the month

It is a slippery slope.


severticas wrote:

it's all about timing and depending on how many people are for the use of conversion therapy. since it's probably not a lot of people and the rest have no real stake in it...


Severticas is also right. A federal law should not be handed out for one family. Nothing should be forced on anyone. But that is exactly what this law will do. People act like they don't have a choice but there is always a choice. This is not something that can fixed by a ban. This country is simply choosing not to educate its citizens. This is a state or even a community problem. Society needs to be more protective of our children. There should never be a time you don't know someone is contemplating suicide or depressed. I can tell when my sister hasn't had breakfast from 700 miles away via text. People just need to stop ignoring their problems. I think everyone needs therapy, but only if they choose it or it won't work anyway.

I didn't know much about conversion therapy before today, but if people choose it it is their choice. The most this law should do is ban forced enrollment.

There is a difference between enjoying those things also no says that they are medical or psychology good for or at least its not recognize by the psychology community and changing something you cannot change also slippery slope really
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Posted 11/1/15
I have no idea what Leelaw's law is or who tried to kill themselves and why... so I'm just gonna sit in the corner and read yaoi manga
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Posted 11/1/15 , edited 11/1/15

silversongwriter wrote:

I can explain the whole "death" question rather easilly... For one, let's look at the victim for example, Leela Alicorn... His parents still believe in religion, do not regret the use of conversion therapy, and continue to call him Joshua and refer to him with masculine pronouns... They stand by their principles regardless of the fact that their child committed suicide because they would not waver on their beliefs.
That's why I promote my own brand of self-conversion therapy and I'd give the same advice to an 8 year old kid without losing a moment of sleep the night after seeing his face on TV with a rope around his neck... I'm not evil, I just believe in standing for principles.

Also, let's look at ethics as a math problem... If the people who love you make it wrong to commit suicide then doesn't that mean that all bullying-related suicides are good? If the number of people who hate your outweigh the number of people who love you, wouldn' you be morally obligated to commit suicide?
I don't think so.... Since I believe the individual is 100% responsible for applying value to ones own life.

Also, I agree with restricting conversion therapy from minors, so I don't think that "truancy laws" are a good comparison, since those laws don't apply to adults.




Careful. That's not like a math problem at all, that's just a lot of leaps of logic. A mathematical approach to morality would be something like....one person dies to save two people who each can contribute more to society than the one dead person, therefore, we gain more than we lost as a society, so the death is not as bad. Or it is perhaps good.

If the people who love you make it wrong to commit suicide, they are probably doing so because they love you and don't want to die. If that's not the case, then bullying-related suicide still isn't necessarily good because that dead person who spent years alive now doesn't get to give back to society and all the time spent raising that person was wasted.

If the number of people who hate you outweigh the number of people who love you, what gain do you give to the people as a result of committing suicide and is it worth sacrificing your contributions? Do you prevent a costly and certain harm by dying in response to knowing you're hated by many? Is that harm prevented so great that it is greater than your reasonable contribution to society over the course of a lifetime?
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Posted 11/1/15

PapaGregory wrote:


There is a difference between enjoying those things also no says that they are medical or psychology good for or at least its not recognize by the psychology community and changing something you cannot change also slippery slope really


I think that if conversion therapy isn't done by licensed therapists, it indicates that it's not legit psychiatric treatment... plus, who says it "can't" change.
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