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Posted 11/16/15
As misleading as the title of my post post may be, I think it's fitting for the topic.

I had just finished having an argument with an acquaintance of mine, (which was ended with them stopping the discussion and refusing to acknowledge the validity of my argument), when it occurred to me that people often come to assumptions (before giving any real thought to the subject), and stick fast to them like they are proven facts.

So I then thought, "I often come to logically sound conclusions, that most people would refuse to agree with".

Anyways, I decided that I would start this thread with one of these arguments, and allow other users to share arguments they have had, as well as leaving their thoughts about other peoples arguments.

My first argument, and also the example argument-

I think that car insurance rates, are sexist because:
-They charge much higher rates for teenage boys than they do for teenage girls, because they are (statistically) more likely to get into accidents.

My brother thinks that this isn't sexist because:
-The increased rates for teenage boys are based on statistics.

I think that his point doesn't disprove mine because:
-Justifying prejudice, doesn't change that it is prejudice.

end


At this point, he refused to continue the argument, but also refused to accept that he may have been wrong.

Please share your arguments.

hopefully this can provide some closure to them, as you will likely find someone who shares your understanding of a topic. However, there will also be others who do not understand or agree with your reasoning.

Please be respectful to those who are being respectful.
Please be overly respectful, in a condescending manner, to those who are not being respectful.

The golden rules: use logical reasoning, and do not dodge points in a circular rant.


Hopefully we can study these arguments and learn about how people argue. Have fun.

-milldoo
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Posted 11/16/15 , edited 11/16/15
I will note that logically sound doesn't always mean correct. People need to stop assuming that is true or paints a whole picture just because it sounds good. Politics are a prime example where it's misused. Anyways, I digress.

For this argument, it isn't prejudice since statistically it's true. Prejudice would imply the insurance company is using opinions that are not based on reason or actual experience. Which isn't the case for this. Just my 2 cents.

Now I need sleep.
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Posted 11/16/15
Sexism: "discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex or gender..."
Prejudice: "an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand without knowledge, thought, or reason."
http://dictionary.reference.com/

Based on the definitions of prejudice and sexism, I think that car insurance rates are not sexist, based on the fact that there is grounded statistical analysis confirming that teenage males are more likely to get into car accidents. This may indirectly be related to the fact that they are male, but it is not pretentious. I do not think that there is prejudice involved, because there is thought and reason applied to this discrimination.
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Posted 11/16/15
@dotsforlife

Then is it racist to charge black people more to have their haircut, because it is more difficult to style?
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Posted 11/16/15
@Insaneperino

I agree with you on this, but I would like to ask if you think this logic is applicable in all cases of prejudice.

If there is solid reasoning for having a prejudice, is wrong or right to treat people differently based on the prejudice you have of them in any situation related to your prejudice?

example: if you have through the years hired lots of people for the same job opening, and find that students have generally been unreliable employees; Is it wrong to dismiss the application of any students for the job position?
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Posted 11/16/15

Insanerino wrote:

Sexism: "discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex or gender..."
Prejudice: "an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand without knowledge, thought, or reason."
http://dictionary.reference.com/


After reading these definitions, I would conclude that there is not prejudice in their insurance rates, but that it is still sexist.
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Posted 11/16/15 , edited 11/17/15
They aren't getting charged more because they are teenage boys. They are getting charged more because they are accident-prone. The same cannot be said for middle-aged people, whose rates seem similar, as far as I can tell. I don't think it's sexist, either. It seems to apply to a certain age group and sex, not all people of that sex. Additionally, just because something involves sex doesn't make it sexism automatically. You must examine the causes, intent, and knowledge driving the action.

Charges should based on the amount of effort or risk or skill put forth. I would not say it is sexist that many women pay more for haircuts than me. They simply have more hair to deal with in general. It just so happens that they are women. It doesn't seem unfair or discriminatory.

I think the "heated debate" part comes from not understanding the point being driven across. Are you arguing it is sexist and unfair, so it needs to be changed? Or are you simply pointing out that you think it might be a type of acceptable or tolerable sexism?
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Posted 11/17/15

dotsforlife wrote:

I will note that logically sound doesn't always mean correct.

Did you use logic to come to that conclusion?
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Posted 11/17/15


Sexism without prejudice is just fair and normal right? Like how the medical industry is sexist towards women, because they need to pay more for women's healthcare products than men? How about the fact that men produce testosterone, making them physically stronger, and also making sports sexist because we don't treat women the same as men in sports?

Especially considering in the case of insurance, where the hike in price is based on a historically accident prone demographic, which may have nothing to do with the rates of older males. If older men get a "none sexist" rate, then it's no longer discrimination against men in general, it's more like an age discrimination.

I mean, sure you can call it "sexism". I just don't think it's fair to call it sexist, especially when sexism includes prejudiced and pretentious acts based in subjective and arbitrary reasoning, too. But "fair sexism", is it really unexpected, unrealistic, and is there really anything wrong with it?
Posted 11/17/15

Insanerino wrote:



Sexism without prejudice is just fair and normal right? Like how the medical industry is sexist towards women, because they need to pay more for women's healthcare products than men? How about the fact that men produce testosterone, making them physically stronger, and also making sports sexist because we don't treat women the same as men in sports?


People don't understand averages when it comes to sports. If you ask me, just have the same standards apply to both sexists and have integrated sports.
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Posted 11/17/15

milldoo wrote:

people often come to assumptions (before giving any real thought to the subject), and stick fast to them like they are proven facts.

-milldoo


I've been living with someone like that for years now
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Posted 11/17/15 , edited 11/17/15

milldoo wrote:

As misleading as the title of my post post may be, I think it's fitting for the topic.

I had just finished having an argument with an acquaintance of mine, (which was ended with them stopping the discussion and refusing to acknowledge the validity of my argument), when it occurred to me that people often come to assumptions (before giving any real thought to the subject), and stick fast to them like they are proven facts.

So I then thought, "I often come to logically sound conclusions, that most people would refuse to agree with".

Anyways, I decided that I would start this thread with one of these arguments, and allow other users to share arguments they have had, as well as leaving their thoughts about other peoples arguments.

My first argument, and also the example argument-

I think that car insurance rates, are sexist because:
-They charge much higher rates for teenage boys than they do for teenage girls, because they are (statistically) more likely to get into accidents.

My brother thinks that this isn't sexist because:
-The increased rates for teenage boys are based on statistics.

I think that his point doesn't disprove mine because:
-Justifying prejudice, doesn't change that it is prejudice.

end


At this point, he refused to continue the argument, but also refused to accept that he may have been wrong.

Please share your arguments.

hopefully this can provide some closure to them, as you will likely find someone who shares your understanding of a topic. However, there will also be others who do not understand or agree with your reasoning.

Please be respectful to those who are being respectful.
Please be overly respectful, in a condescending manner, to those who are not being respectful.

The golden rules: use logical reasoning, and do not dodge points in a circular rant.


Hopefully we can study these arguments and learn about how people argue. Have fun.

-milldoo


I think it's sexist in regards to this particular matter (sexist, although based on a pragmatic approach to understanding rather than uninformed ignorance), which is one reason I would agree that it is very justifiable from the businesses standpoint when considering the cold hard facts. It's also a fact that most girls reach mental maturity several years before most boys. Perhaps another reason why a lot of high school girls would prefer to go out with a guy whose older and more mature than guys in their own age group?

In my case, I'm actually guilty of ageism to a degree. Having been there done that with learning to drive, and having enough time to encounter more than my fair share of horrible drivers, I have formed the opinion that I must always drive extremely cautiously during back to school month and summer break every year because that's when new student drivers are out swerving through traffic in full force.


Insanerino wrote:

Sexism: "discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex or gender..."
Prejudice: "an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand without knowledge, thought, or reason."
http://dictionary.reference.com/

Based on the definitions of prejudice and sexism, I think that car insurance rates are not sexist, based on the fact that there is grounded statistical analysis confirming that teenage males are more likely to get into car accidents. This may indirectly be related to the fact that they are male, but it is not pretentious. I do not think that there is prejudice involved, because there is thought and reason applied to this discrimination.


It's still discrimination that separates total X population of males from total X population of females. So the two major factors for sexism are prevalent. Discrimination, and Gender based. Yes, I agree there's good evidence for why this is sound reasoning on the part of insurance companies, but I'm not quite convinced that excludes the act from being sexist. If anything, it merely makes it a more reasonably tolerable form of sexism because it is so greatly supported by the evidence.


Morbidhanson wrote:

They aren't getting charged more because they are teenage boys. They are getting charged more because they are accident-prone. The same cannot be said for middle-aged people, whose rates seem similar, as far as I can tell. I don't think it's sexist, either. It seems to apply to a certain age group and sex, not all people of that sex.

Charges should based on the amount of effort or risk or skill put forth (It would be nice, but sounds like a logistics nightmare to invest so much time for hundreds of thousands of people). I would not say it is sexist that many women pay more for haircuts than me. They simply have more hair to deal with in general. It just so happens that they are women. It doesn't seem unfair or discriminatory.

I think the "heated debate" part comes from not understanding the point being driven across. Are you arguing it is sexist and unfair, so it needs to be changed? Or are you simply pointing out that you think it might be a type of acceptable or tolerable sexism? I think it's long been accepted as acceptable by most people, if not a little annoying at most

(Not because teenage boys, but because those teenage boys are accident-prone).

It still comes out the same way, whether or not you have supporting evidence for it. I don't think it would be sexist if a majority of young men had higher insurance rates due to having worse drivers-test scores than young women because in that instance at least they could issue rates based on individual aptitudes. However, in this instance it is population wide for the customers of said insurance companies. You cannot guarantee that on an individualistic level, Billy is more accident prone than Samantha. So long as this discrimination is based on statistics, and blanketed across all customers, I'd argue that its a form of sexism since the insurance companies are issuing discrimination at a statistical level, without consideration of the individual (They only consider your gender at the individual level), which means the best student driver on earth could be a boy, but he would still get a more severe rate than the worst girl student driver.

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Posted 11/17/15

milldoo wrote:
Please be respectful to those who are being respectful.
Please be overly respectful, in a condescending manner, to those who are not being respectful.


Being condescending is not respectful and therefore is not really appropriate for CR's forums and is more likely to lead toward inappropriately heated arguments.

If someone is being especially disrespectful, please report their post to the moderator. If it doesn't seem to warrant reporting, then either reply in a way that is respectful or do not reply at all.
reinux 
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Posted 11/17/15
I thought the title said "healed diabetes"
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Posted 11/17/15
I wasn't aware that car insurance was priced higher for teenage boys as opposed to teenage girls since I don't own a car and have never wanted to drive. But you do pose a very good argument. I would agree with you there.

I've been involved in various arguments about all manner of different things with people, and it has often ended with somebody leaving and refusing to debate it anymore. My dad is a perfect example. He is very much a "Because I said so and I'm always right!" type of person. And he has a bad habit of walking away before the argument has even started.

I think every single individual has some sort of prejudice about something. We all have things we feel incredibly strongly about, and sometimes people suggesting we might be wrong feels like an insult (even if it isn't meant to be). It's probably just human nature for everyone to think they're opinion is always right.
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