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Post Reply Anime or Cartoon?
Posted 11/18/15 , edited 11/18/15

anikevin wrote:

They are just two terms to differentiate one style to the other.
These 2 below are very similar, yet different.

Cartoon




Anime



Like Loomy mentioned, we need to create new terms for series that don't belong in any of the 2 existing categories.
Chinese animation is often called Manhua Anime, so why not call this Jap-influenced American animation, American Anime? People will eventually decide.


People are stupid. Stupid enough to call something with good writing American anime just because it has good writing. Case in sample avatar. I see nothing anime about it.

Sure, it may have an arc inspired by anime, but so what? It's an insult to american cartoon to call them anime as the very notion of good overarching story telling is not strictly Japanese.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anime-influenced_animation


I guess you can consider the transformer 80s series to be anime, but yet there probably won't be a single person to call it american anime.
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Posted 11/18/15 , edited 11/18/15

FLjerry2011 wrote:

It's true Luke Bryan. Some of his songs has Hip- Hop I may debate but I try to keep things on the corrrect !

Influences

Bryan has cited influences in his career as being country artists George Strait, Alan Jackson, Alabama and Merle Haggard. As regards the incorporation of elements of other music genres into his music, he cited hip hop bands Beastie Boys and Run-D.M.C. as the source of inspiration in an interview with Huffington Post, noting, "I think there's been somewhat of a change with our generation. You know, nobody grew up more countrier than me, but I mean, I had Beastie Boys playing on little boom boxes and Run D.M.C. and all forms of music, so through the years, I just think it's all constantly blending together.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luke_Bryan


This whole topic really depresses me. People are trying to blend different genres together because it's more "modern" when really all they are doing is destroying that genre.

Americans attempting anime? Terrible. Country music with hiphop randomly thrown in? Awful.

What is the point in randomly mashing things together? It worked perfectly fine the way it was. Don't try and fix what isn't broken.
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Posted 11/18/15 , edited 11/18/15

eclair-lumiere wrote:
This whole topic really depresses me. People are trying to blend different genres together because it's more "modern" when really all they are doing is destroying that genre.

Americans attempting anime? Terrible. Country music with hiphop randomly thrown in? Awful.

What is the point in randomly mashing things together? It worked perfectly fine the way it was. Don't try and fix what isn't broken.


It's innovation, and it's natural for things to change. Things may work perfectly fine the way it was, but that doesn't mean that it can't work better, or differently by adding new things or making something new by combining bits of the old.

I kind of get it though. When there's something I like the way it is, I can feel disappointed that things in general have changed sufficiently that I won't get to see new instances of the old thing that are completely true to the way I've grown to like them. But often I can still have and enjoy the old thing (just not new instances of it), AND also enjoy new variations.


BTW, Please stop building quote pyramids, and then making them even worse by repeatedly adding a spoiler tags to hide them. When quoting, edit your post to eliminate the innermost portion of the quote. Just keep the most recent part that's useful for retaining context.

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Posted 11/18/15 , edited 11/18/15

eclair-lumiere wrote:

Americans attempting anime? Terrible.


Judging by the success of Avatar, Legend of Korra, and RWBY I'd say this isn't accurate. If anything I'd actually say Japanese anime should take some notes from these (not completely change how they do things, but just take some ideas away).


What is the point in randomly mashing things together? It worked perfectly fine the way it was. Don't try and fix what isn't broken.


Mashing things together means opening new doors/ideas/concepts than them being separate. Does mixing always work? No, but when it does its usually great.

As for the "it worked perfectly fine the way it was", if this is in reference to Japanese anime then I'd disagree since its basically been throwing around the same concepts/archetypes/stories for a while and in recent times has started resorting to use of service to sell things. Not to mention how it treats female characters and same-sex couples (just for service and not for actual development).

And keep in mind that for some the reason for using 'anime' literally just boils down to it being the easiest/simplest term to use for Avatar, LoK, and RWBY. Its not people trying to undermine the term or genre.
Posted 11/18/15

xCrimsonEX wrote:


eclair-lumiere wrote:

Americans attempting anime? Terrible.


Judging by the success of Avatar, Legend of Korra, and RWBY I'd say this isn't accurate. If anything I'd actually say Japanese anime should take some notes from these (not completely change how they do things, but just take some ideas away).


What is the point in randomly mashing things together? It worked perfectly fine the way it was. Don't try and fix what isn't broken.


Mashing things together means opening new doors/ideas/concepts than them being separate. Does mixing always work? No, but when it does its usually great.

As for the "it worked perfectly fine the way it was", if this is in reference to Japanese anime then I'd disagree since its basically been throwing around the same concepts/archetypes/stories for a while and in recent times has started resorting to use of service to sell things. Not to mention how it treats female characters and same-sex couples (just for service and not for actual development).

And keep in mind that for some the reason for using 'anime' literally just boils down to it being the easiest/simplest term to use for Avatar, LoK, and RWBY. Its not people trying to undermine the term or genre.


Good storytelling shouldn't be stereotyped to be anime only if ya ask me. I don't see what's so anime about Avatar anyway. Most of it lore is Chinese based anyway.
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Posted 11/18/15 , edited 11/18/15

PeripheralVisionary wrote:

Good storytelling shouldn't be stereotyped to be anime only if ya ask me. I don't see what's so anime about Avatar anyway. Most of it lore is Chinese based anyway.


For me its stylistic and/or artistic instead of about storytelling. The characters are drawn more human/realistic instead of something like say Family Guy or even something like Ben 10 or Teen Titans. The closest I've seen to the style would probably be Archer.

I agree that good storytelling doesn't only belong to Japanese anime (its got more than enough face-palm worthy "stories" that embarrass the genre). Manhua, manwha, webtoons, etc all show that its not limited to just Japan, it just happens that Japan is the most well known.
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Posted 11/18/15
yeah i don't care if people think it's a cartoon or anime.

If it's a good show then that's what it is
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Posted 11/18/15 , edited 11/18/15

lorreen wrote:


eclair-lumiere wrote:
This whole topic really depresses me. People are trying to blend different genres together because it's more "modern" when really all they are doing is destroying that genre.

Americans attempting anime? Terrible. Country music with hiphop randomly thrown in? Awful.

What is the point in randomly mashing things together? It worked perfectly fine the way it was. Don't try and fix what isn't broken.


It's innovation, and it's natural for things to change. Things may work perfectly fine the way it was, but that doesn't mean that it can't work better, or differently by adding new things or making something new by combining bits of the old.

I kind of get it though. When there's something I like the way it is, I can feel disappointed that things in general have changed sufficiently that I won't get to see new instances of the old thing that are completely true to the way I've grown to like them. But often I can still have and enjoy the old thing (just not new instances of it), AND also enjoy new variations.



I totally agree. There's nothing wrong with new experiences and new things. Things change and evolve, that's just how it is. Maybe I'm more open to change for my entertainment since I've been a big gaming fan for a while and you just get used to new experiences, new consoles, new graphics, new controllers, etc. I love new things, which is why I like it when I see these new "anime influenced" shows like RWBY, Korra, etc. that are bringing different spins on what we already know. But at the same time gamers also like throwbacks and traditional gameplay in well established franchises so that it isn't completely foreign to us. So game developers (especially Nintendo) need to find middle grounds where they are being innovative and new, but still not be too out there to completely change the fundamentals of the franchise.

I see anime in the same light: I'm very open to change and innovation, but I also like core fundamentals to not be lost in the change too much. Without innovation the anime industry (or any industry) would crash. With the new involvement of western companies joining the anime scene, I believe we are in some type of transitional phase and I think instead of trying to fight it, it's best to try to embrace it and say what can be done to make it a meaningful change because it's happening whether we like it or not.

As far as anime goes, I believe we will still see plenty of the same things we do 10 years from now and that's great, just like how I'll still be playing new Mario and Zelda games 10 years from now. But there's no problem with new experiences, experimentation, and new shows to bring different perspectives on genres we already love. Whether it's coming form Japan or the West.




PeripheralVisionary wrote:

Good storytelling shouldn't be stereotyped to be anime only if ya ask me. I don't see what's so anime about Avatar anyway. Most of it lore is Chinese based anyway.


Of course not. Good storytelling isn't exclusive to anime, look at Disney films and many others.

And what makes Avatar/Korra anime-like is because of its narrative-structure, its use of character development, animation, character designs, and artstyle. I'd all those things match up very well to what I expect in certain animes that are action-adventure-esque

And just because it uses a lot of Chinese references doesn't make it ineligible. One Punch Man uses a lot of american superhero themes for example.
Posted 11/18/15

LoomyTheBrew wrote:


lorreen wrote:


eclair-lumiere wrote:
This whole topic really depresses me. People are trying to blend different genres together because it's more "modern" when really all they are doing is destroying that genre.

Americans attempting anime? Terrible. Country music with hiphop randomly thrown in? Awful.

What is the point in randomly mashing things together? It worked perfectly fine the way it was. Don't try and fix what isn't broken.


It's innovation, and it's natural for things to change. Things may work perfectly fine the way it was, but that doesn't mean that it can't work better, or differently by adding new things or making something new by combining bits of the old.

I kind of get it though. When there's something I like the way it is, I can feel disappointed that things in general have changed sufficiently that I won't get to see new instances of the old thing that are completely true to the way I've grown to like them. But often I can still have and enjoy the old thing (just not new instances of it), AND also enjoy new variations.



I totally agree. There's nothing wrong with new experiences and new things. Things change and evolve, that's just how it is. Maybe I'm more open to change for my entertainment since I've been a big gaming fan for a while and you just get used to new experiences, new consoles, new graphics, new controllers, etc. I love new things, which is why I like it when I see these new "anime influenced" shows like RWBY, Korra, etc. that are bringing different spins on what we already know. But at the same time gamers also like throwbacks and traditional gameplay in well established franchises so it isn't completely foreign and game developers (especially Nintendo) need to find middle grounds where they are being innovative and new, but still not too out there to completely change the fundamentals of the franchise.

I see anime in the same light: I'm very open to change and innovation, but I also like core fundamentals to not be lost in the change too much. Without innovation the anime industry (or any industry) would crash. With the new involvement of western companies joining the anime scene, I believe we are in some type of transition and I think instead of trying to fight it, it's best to try to embrace it and say what can be done to make it a meaningful change.

As far as anime goes, I believe we will still see plenty of the same things we do 10 years from now and that's great, just like how I'll still be playing Mario and Zelda 10 years from now. But there's no problem with new experiences, experimentation, and new shows to bring different perspectives on genres we already love. Whether it's coming form Japan or the West.




PeripheralVisionary wrote:

Good storytelling shouldn't be stereotyped to be anime only if ya ask me. I don't see what's so anime about Avatar anyway. Most of it lore is Chinese based anyway.


Of course not. Good storytelling isn't exclusive to anime, look at Disney films.

And what makes Avatar/Korra anime-like is because of its narrative-structure, its use of character development, animation, character designs, and artstyle. I'd all those things match up very well to what I expect in certain animes that action-adventure-esque

And just because it uses a lot of Chinese references doesn't make it ineligible. One Punch Man uses a lot of american superhero themes for example.

One of the things I noticed about avatar was lack of focus on other things. Now an anime might have 1 or 2 canon filler that helps flesh out the world but avatar was basically 3 separate arc unto seasons. Character development isn't exclusive to anime, American industry had their fair share of it to concerning the rise of graphic novels in silver? age (Ex. Spawn, Batman's death in the family.) Functionally speaking, I don't see a difference in how it drawn its characters, it wasn't all that much of a divergence from mainstream cartoons.


Okay, I might have gotten a few comic book things wrong, but I stand by my point. Sortof.
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Posted 11/18/15
So what happens when a Japanese Magazine (say Ultra Jump) calls an american cartoon (say RWBY) Anime

(which it did in the most recent issue, featuring the first chapter of the new Rwby manga with Miwa Shirow doing art)

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Posted 11/18/15


It's not really innovation to just pick two things at random and then mash them together. And the result is always very poor.

With regards toe the building quote pyramids, I have had this conversation with you before. I have been told by another mod the rules you have to put them in spoilers. I'm not forcing anyone to click the spoilers and open them up.
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Posted 11/18/15


Avatar isn't an attempt at anime. There's nothing anime-like about it so that fails as an example. RWBY may have become popular but again, it still doesn't look like anime and it started off as a web series. If it's that wonderful then why did they have to post it online first before it could get attention? Clearly no TV companies had any faith in it.
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Posted 11/18/15 , edited 11/18/15

PeripheralVisionary wrote:

One of the things I noticed about avatar was lack of focus on other things. Now an anime might have 1 or 2 canon filler that helps flesh out the world but avatar was basically 3 separate arc unto seasons. Character development isn't exclusive to anime, American industry had their fair share of it to concerning the rise of graphic novels in silver? age (Ex. Spawn, Batman's death in the family.) Functionally speaking, I don't see a difference in how it drawn its characters, it wasn't all that much of a divergence from mainstream cartoons.


Okay, I might have gotten a few comic book things wrong, but I stand by my point. Sortof.


I would have liked Korra, especially, to dive in deeper on some of its more mature themes, but alas it was produced and aired on Nick, so beggars can't be choosers. Still, what it did show me I thought was pretty meaningful nonetheless.

And yes, I know character development isn't exclusive to anime, it definitely is not. This is hard to explain, like really hard to explain on a computer, but there's a certain standard I guess that I expect when I watch an anime. Definitely there are animes that I believe did character development horribly, but stay fit that bill of how the characters were used; even if its in a bad way. I know, this probably makes ZERO sense, it's not even making that much sense to me so I'm going to just let this one die. Let's just say, I believe Korra can stand up to your average shounen just fine. I believe it matches styles and approaches that I've seen in animes very well.

In terms of presentation, Korra definitely looks way different from your convention cartoon and its trying to mimic the "anime look" with its art style and animation (look no further than the Wan episodes during season 2; which I believe were animated by a korean studio or studio pierrot).


I can say the same with some manhuas, which a lot of them are mimicking/influenced by Japanese mangas and such.

This is why I push that Japan has created certain styles in their animation and in their comics (manga), which others like, and want to mimic. They are influenced by Japan and its take on stories, art, animation, and characters. Just like how Japan can be influenced by our superhero comics. It can go both ways. American superhero genres have created their own styles, just as Japanese animation has as well.

Anyways what I'm trying to get at is there is a divide in terms what we expect from anime and what we expect from cartoons. There is styles that are present in all animes I believe that make them just a bit more distinct than your average western cartoon, even in animes I consider bad. You yourself said you'd chastise anyone that tried to call a cartoon an anime. Is it only because you believe anime strictly means animation from Japan or is it because you believe there's a certain level of quality/style that mostly western animation cannot match (maybe a little bit of both)? Just think about that for a moment...
Posted 11/18/15

LoomyTheBrew wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:

One of the things I noticed about avatar was lack of focus on other things. Now an anime might have 1 or 2 canon filler that helps flesh out the world but avatar was basically 3 separate arc unto seasons. Character development isn't exclusive to anime, American industry had their fair share of it to concerning the rise of graphic novels in silver? age (Ex. Spawn, Batman's death in the family.) Functionally speaking, I don't see a difference in how it drawn its characters, it wasn't all that much of a divergence from mainstream cartoons.


Okay, I might have gotten a few comic book things wrong, but I stand by my point. Sortof.


I would have liked Korra, especially, to dive in deeper on some of its more mature themes, but alas it was produced and aired on Nick, so beggars can't be choosers. Still, what it did show me I thought was pretty meaningful nonetheless.

And yes, I know character development isn't exclusive to anime, definitely not. This is hard to explain, like really hard to explain on a computer, but there's a certain standard I guess that I expect when I watch an anime. Definitely there are animes that I believe did character development horribly, but stay fit that bill of how the characters were used; even if its in a bad way. I know, this probably makes ZERO sense, it's not even making that much sense to me so I'm going to just let this one die. Let's just say, I believe Korra can stand up to your average shounen just fine. I believe it matches styles and approaches that I've seen in animes very well.

In terms of presentation, Korra definitely looks way different from your convention cartoon and its trying to mimic the "anime look" with its art style and animation (look no further than the Wan episodes during season 2; which I believe were animated by a korean studio or studio pierrot).


Anyways what I'm trying to get at is there is a divide in terms what we expect from anime and what we expect from cartoons. There is styles that are present in all animes I believe that make them just a bit more distinct than your average western cartoon, even in animes I consider bad. You yourself said you'd chastise anyone that tried to call a cartoon an anime. Is it only because you believe anime strictly means animation from Japan or is it because you believe there's a certain level of quality/style that mostly western animation cannot match (maybe a little bit of both)? Just think about that for a moment...



I agree with the fact that certain expectations are well expected of what may be entirely different mediums. For example, you'd expect Disney film to be different than something on the Disney Channel. (Sadly.) I chastise because I feel it is an insult to say something is an anime when it is not, and basically saying something is something else rather than representative of what it truly is. This tokenism is something you see a lot of times in racist context and there's no need for it to be here. There's no need to say he is "one of the good, submissive blacks" or for anyone to say this is an "american anime" when it is not an anime. I truly believe cartoons are capable of matching up to anime, but to call them anime as well insults the past quality works done by Westerners.


Yes, I compared it to racism.
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