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Post Reply Why is suicide bad but self sacrifice not?
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25 / F / New Jersey, USA
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Posted 12/5/15

Bavalt wrote:

I don't see anything wrong with suicide. If someone wants to take their own life, that's their prerogative. Unless they've got specific responsibilities to fulfill, I've got no problem with it. I don't believe in such a thing as a "debt to society" or arbitrarily having to contribute something. The world forces you to contribute something in order to live well as it is. You work for the means to live. Why is it a problem when someone chooses not to contribute by also foregoing the benefit they would have gotten from that contribution? That's the entire transaction. If you don't like your life, then I don't think you ought to be pressured to go through with it anyway. Not wanting someone to commit suicide is understandable. That's empathy at work, and there's nothing wrong with that. Condemning everyone who does it is oppressive. I get that life is tough for virtually everyone, but there's really not any point in demonizing someone because they couldn't take it. The motive is just to be validated for your own suffering, that you were "tough enough" to wade through, but in reality, that has nothing to do with the situation.

As for self-sacrifice, I'm pretty iffy on that one. It boils down to whether or not the person doing it really wanted that to be the result. If you willingly sacrifice yourself to accomplish something, that's fine (but not good in and of itself; it just means that you care a lot about the thing you wanted to accomplish.) If you're manipulated into it, that's unacceptable. A soldier diving onto a grenade to save his friends is a hero (assuming his friends wanted to live). A soldier diving onto a grenade to save the surrounding flora from being damaged is a little weird, but not problematic. A soldier being sent, unknowing, on a suicide mission is just a victim of his commander's moral inadequacy.

That's my take on it, anyway. My ethics are pretty starkly on the individualistic side of things. There's no reason, to me, to recognize the species or society as a whole morally, outside of the fact that other people are moral agents just like oneself. The most important thing should be to avoid obstructing the individual agency of others. Life doesn't have any inherent worth, and trying to force another person to live or die for your own sake is a dick move, because forcing people to do things is in itself the cardinal dick move.



Thank you.
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20 / M / Bundaberg, Queens...
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Posted 12/5/15
Neither are bad it's very subjective.

Whilst i'm against suicide now i want a future where people can live forever and chose when they want to die.

oh im bored of living for 1000 years well time to kill myself peacefully
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23 / M / Kaguya's Panties
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Posted 12/5/15
Let's get something straight. Suicide is NOT bad. Only the uneducated and selfish who don't want to be left alone make it seem bad and guilt the depressed person into doing what THEY want.
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Posted 12/5/15
Both are paradoxical to me. Living is necessary for my existence.
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Posted 12/5/15 , edited 12/5/15

saksiss wrote:

Let's get something straight. Suicide is NOT bad. Only the uneducated and selfish who don't want to be left alone make it seem bad and guilt the depressed person into doing what THEY want.


Never thought of it that way.
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Posted 12/5/15 , edited 12/5/15

saksiss wrote:

Let's get something straight. Suicide is NOT bad. Only the uneducated and selfish who don't want to be left alone make it seem bad and guilt the depressed person into doing what THEY want.


So it is wrong for other cultures that may have reasons, either within their own belief systems or based on careful reasoning, to labeling suicide as "wrong" but its cool for you to label anyone who disagrees with you as uneducated and selfish, including cultures, religions, philosophies, etc. that have predated you by years, decades, centuries and even millennia in addition to encompassing vast swaths of people, including at least a few credentialed as being rather intelligent? Aren't you now trying to guilt people who don't agree with you into agreeing with you by insulting them, especially in a relatively public forum?
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Posted 12/5/15
People always consider suicide to be "selfish" but isn't self-sacrifice the same thing?

If you commit suicide then you are potentially leaving people behind who will miss you and have to deal with the pain. But if you sacrifice yourself, even though the circumstances are different it still means you will be leaving your loved ones behind to mourn you. If they don't want you to die then why would they cope any better in those circumstances?

Also, a lot of people who feel suicidal genuinely have no one and won't be missed by anyone who knows them. Hence why they feel suicidal in the first place.
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Posted 12/5/15

Radraymond01 wrote:

I think it mainly has to do with self sacrifice going towards a better cause, while suicide is just plain killing yourself.


^
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Posted 12/5/15 , edited 12/5/15
So as I'm dumb enough to have read this thread in the first place, even though I know I'm going to see at least some people that want me dead, I'm going to share my opinion.

Wait, why do I say people want me dead? Do I think I've angered someone that much? No, that might be a little easier to handle. People want me dead because of apathy or because they can't stand the thought that there is a situation where it may be "okay" if not "good" to tell someone what to do against that person's wishes. People want me dead because like many (most?) I've seriously contemplated suicide, though thankfully I've never come remotely close for two reasons:

1) Aversion to pain (especially since I could botch the attempt)

2) Being taught that all humans have innate worth to the point where one should only terminate a human life under very specific circumstances... and suicide ain't one of them.

Suicide is rarely a choice of the rational; in fact it is hard to argue it is ever the choice of the rational. So while this is a simple forum discussion that one might think would carry little weight on influencing someone's rational, well-informed decisions about something so serious... it seems most likely that someone suicidal is not in a rational frame of mind.

Does that mean no one can disagree with those that teach suicide is wrong?

Of course not; I can't stop people from disagreeing with me and even if I could I should allow the discussion to go on. I can however encourage people to remember that this is a pretty serious manner for many people.
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Posted 12/5/15

KamisamanoOtaku wrote:


saksiss wrote:

Let's get something straight. Suicide is NOT bad. Only the uneducated and selfish who don't want to be left alone make it seem bad and guilt the depressed person into doing what THEY want.


So it is wrong for other cultures that may reasons, either within their own belief systems or based on careful reasoning, to labeling suicide as "wrong" but its cool for you to label anyone who disagrees with you as uneducated and selfish, including cultures, religions, philosophies, etc. that have predated you by years, decades, centuries and even millennia in addition to encompassing vast swaths of people, including at least a few credentialed as being rather intelligent? Aren't you now trying to guilt people who don't agree with you into agreeing with you by insulting them, especially in a relatively public forum?


Yes.
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25 / F / New Jersey, USA
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Posted 12/5/15


But I don't want you dead.
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It doesn't matter.
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Posted 12/5/15
Without context the only difference is Motivation, but one reason is "OP said it is this way".

I'm sure in practice self sacrifice isn't that great either because they couldn't think of a solution where everyone lives.
Posted 12/5/15

Sir_jamesalot wrote:

Without context the only difference is Motivation, but one reason is "OP said it is this way".

I'm sure in practice self sacrifice isn't that great either because they couldn't think of a solution where everyone lives.
Self-sacrifice is easier to understand from the third person, as it clearly involves altruism. Suicide is less accepted because its less altruistic; its harder to view it objectively as a good thing because of its inward nature. There's also religious stigma.

Case-in-point on subjectivity, terrorism can be viewed as either suicide or self-sacrifice, depending on audience. Since most of us aren't pro terror, so we don't view it as altruistic ofc, but it illustrates my point nicely.
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29 / M / B.C, Canada
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Posted 12/5/15 , edited 12/5/15

bobsagget wrote:


Depends on the culture.


All right if I see one more idiot misunderstand the concept of seppku I will bash their head in. The Japanese do not and likely have never view suicide as an honourable act. Seppku was only ever preformed by disgraced samurai as a way to atone for their mistakes. And even then Seppku was never the first choice, only when no other path to redemption was available was Seppku undertaken. For the code by which a Samurai lived by demanded that if amends could be made they had to be made, even if it meant living in what could be considered shame and dishonour.
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Posted 12/5/15

Radraymond01 wrote:
I think it mainly has to do with self sacrifice going towards a better cause, while suicide is just plain killing yourself.

This.
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