First  Prev  1  2  3  Next  Last
Post Reply My Personal Critiques of Current-Wave Anime Production
2072 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
20 / M
Offline
Posted 12/12/15

AnimeATLA wrote:

To me, it sounds like you are basically saying that pandering is bad. The type of pandering you are addressing is specifically sexual. The problem with this is that pandering exists in all genres. While most people like to believe that pandering exists only in echhi, harem, and moe anime (and I would argue that the moe claim has a lot less validity to it), pandering is even in action shows. Let us consider pandering to be giving an audience what they want at the expense of good writing, characters, plot, etc. By this definition I think many moe shows would not be pandering because they are actually funny, have interesting dialogues, likable and unique characters, good writing, etc (see kyoani shows). The same goes for some harem and ecchi shows, like haganai or mangaka-san to assistant-san to, for example. This is not to say all of the shows of these genres are not pandering. Shows like Love Live, prisma illya, trinity seven, highschool dxd, and so on. But action, romance, comedy, and everything else has pandering too, like (I would argue) Cowboy Bebop, Gurren Lagann, Kill la Kill, UBW, etc. Shows where style or animation is over substance. Even if sexual shows were to die out and that pandering would end, it would just be replaced with pandering to a genre with a bigger audience. For every Fate/Zero or other masterpiece created, there will still be a billion shows without any actual merit created and less shows with sexual pandering just means more shows with pandering in some other genre (at least that's how I see it).


This is part of my concern, but my main concern is how this is going to affect future production of Anime. Pandering does not bother me if the pandering is for quality or something valuable. (Which isnt really pandering anymore since its not immoral).
I disagree on your stand point that one form of pandering will be replaced with another, as i believe that we as the viewers have power to request and deny forms of entertainment.
Its not that i dislike sexual shows, i think theres a time and place.
But when sexual content is out of place and unnecessary, i feel that it takes away value. I think sexuality can be done well, like in the old gundam movies, but it shouldnt be used for mere shock value.
I totally understand what your saying though and i agree with alot you said.

A well written comment on your behalf (:

So do you agree or disagree with my argument? i cant really deduce it from what you said lol thats my b
101419 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
F / You, Knighted States
Offline
Posted 12/12/15
2072 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
20 / M
Offline
Posted 12/12/15 , edited 12/12/15

Insomnist wrote:

If you want input on your essay, there should be a part where you explain why this is bad. You circle around it a few times to the effect that fanservice is increasing due to popular demand, which incentivizes writers to create less critically substantial content, and this is bad because it's bad. But you can't leave that a priori, you need to establish why it's bad. Anime is an entertainment industry so isn't it correct for them to respond to consumer input and create shows their audiences want?

You also have to back up that the scenario you've described is happening at all. Especially when you can do a survey of shows from 2015 and come up with a significant number that were both very successful and did not involve sexual enticement. And on the flipside you can also list plenty that do involve some form of sexual or sensual content but are still well respected. And then there are shows from both categories that just bomb horribly. Is there a verifiable trend that supports your thesis?

You're also making a slippery slope argument that if this scenario continues bad things will happen; you need to back up all your claims including that one with arguments that can be tested. It may also be useful to have a more comprehensive model of Japanese media rather than only looking at anime in a vacuum. Do consumers go to anime for a specific, light form of entertainment as a rule, while they pursue heavier experiences in other media? If so, why is that a bad thing?



Quite the fair criticism. You sound like your well versed in logic and ethics. It also sounds like i got a C- lol
Your 100% right about it being a slippery slope argument as well as my lack of data and statistical evidence, as well as analysis of a small demographic. I wasnt necessarily trying to flesh out a complete philosophy article regarding Sexuality in Anime, but rather i was attempting to express my opinion with anecdotal evidence in a philosophic-style format, as the style of writing best suits my train of thought. If i ever gain the excess time to write a full blown philosophy article on this subject, i will definitely take your criticism to heart and apply it directly.

However, that being said, despite the lack of solidity in my argument, i more wrote this thread in order to gain other peoples opinions to see how they feel about the topic at hand. In fact, im quite interested how you feel about this topic as you seem well versed and knowledgeable.

Much of this "essay" is opinion, not an objective statement, therefore i purposely voided from being extremely direct with moral statements.

Thank you for you feedback.

Youve had the best comment yet. But please do tell, how you feel about this topic? And maybe what a potential solution is?
240 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Offline
Posted 12/12/15 , edited 12/12/15
Basically, I do agree with your argument, but it feels flawed. This is because if writers stop appealing to viewer's sexual stimulation (due to backlash from the viewers, or whatever the case may be), then I feel like they would try to capitalize on another appeal. If the competition to create the most sexual content in anime ended and writers stopped relying on it, then they would find another aspect to latch onto. Instead of being the most sexual, we might have the best animation or the most over-the-top fight scenes. While viewer's do have the power to influence what is made, it is exactly because of these viewers that these mindless sexual shows and sexual scenes are created. The problem is that many people who watch anime have a bias toward some genre and therefore like a lot of stuff from that genre. That is why if these over-the-top, clearly pandering, action shows were to be made, they would sell. Because there is an audience that wants to see that type of stuff, even if it is at the expense of good writing. I think you make the mistake of thinking that most people do go into a show looking for "quality." Instead, most people go into a show looking for cool action, cute moe, hot sexual scenes, romances filled with kisses, etc. Most people have some area of interest that can be "pandered to", and most other people who aren't as fond of that genre will dislike that pandering. It is just that pandering will get those fond of a specific genre or element to buy a show or spend on merchandise, whereas a show that doesn't do those things is not necessarily as likely to attract that die-hard fanbase and make as much cash. It's also not that shows that do those things are necessarily pandering or are necessarily bad. It's just that for many, including those extremes is going to be a bigger priority than making sure the story or characters is good (because that only has a chance of selling, while pandering gives more guaranteed sales).
2072 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
20 / M
Offline
Posted 12/12/15

AnimeATLA wrote:

Basically, I do agree with your argument, but it feels flawed. This is because if writers stop appealing to viewer's sexual stimulation (due to backlash from the viewers, or whatever the case may be), then I feel like they would try to capitalize on another appeal. If the competition to create the most sexual content in anime ended and writers stopped relying on it, then they would find another aspect to latch onto. Instead of being the most sexual, we might have the best animation or the most over-the-top fight scenes. While viewer's do have the power to influence what is made, it is exactly because of these viewers that these mindless sexual shows and sexual scenes are created. The problem is that many people who watch anime have a bias toward some genre and therefore like a lot of stuff from that genre. That is why if these over-the-top, clearly pandering, action shows were to be made, they would sell. Because there is an audience that wants to see that type of stuff, even if it is at the expense of good writing. I think you make the mistake of thinking that most people do go into a show looking for "quality." Instead, most people go into a show looking for cool action, cute moe, hot sexual scenes, romances filled with kisses, etc. Most people have some area of interest that can be "pandered to", and most other people who aren't as fond of that genre will dislike that pandering. It is just that pandering will get those fond of a specific genre or element to buy a show or spend on merchandise, whereas a show that doesn't do those things is not necessarily as likely to attract that die-hard fanbase and make as much cash. It's also not that shows that do those things are necessarily pandering or are necessarily bad. It's just that for many, including those extremes is going to be a bigger priority than making sure the story or characters is good (because that only has a chance of selling, while pandering gives more guaranteed sales).



Ahhh i see exactly what your saying now. That definitely is a catch 22. So perhaps its best for Anime to resume its current state of affairs, lest the backlash of the community results in even more pandering
240 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Offline
Posted 12/12/15

SacredMind wrote:


AnimeATLA wrote:

Basically, I do agree with your argument, but it feels flawed. This is because if writers stop appealing to viewer's sexual stimulation (due to backlash from the viewers, or whatever the case may be), then I feel like they would try to capitalize on another appeal. If the competition to create the most sexual content in anime ended and writers stopped relying on it, then they would find another aspect to latch onto. Instead of being the most sexual, we might have the best animation or the most over-the-top fight scenes. While viewer's do have the power to influence what is made, it is exactly because of these viewers that these mindless sexual shows and sexual scenes are created. The problem is that many people who watch anime have a bias toward some genre and therefore like a lot of stuff from that genre. That is why if these over-the-top, clearly pandering, action shows were to be made, they would sell. Because there is an audience that wants to see that type of stuff, even if it is at the expense of good writing. I think you make the mistake of thinking that most people do go into a show looking for "quality." Instead, most people go into a show looking for cool action, cute moe, hot sexual scenes, romances filled with kisses, etc. Most people have some area of interest that can be "pandered to", and most other people who aren't as fond of that genre will dislike that pandering. It is just that pandering will get those fond of a specific genre or element to buy a show or spend on merchandise, whereas a show that doesn't do those things is not necessarily as likely to attract that die-hard fanbase and make as much cash. It's also not that shows that do those things are necessarily pandering or are necessarily bad. It's just that for many, including those extremes is going to be a bigger priority than making sure the story or characters is good (because that only has a chance of selling, while pandering gives more guaranteed sales).



Ahhh i see exactly what your saying now. That definitely is a catch 22. So perhaps its best for Anime to resume its current state of affairs, lest the backlash of the community results in even more pandering


Who knows? As much as I thought shows like Gurren Lagann and Kill la Kill were pandering, they were still very fun to watch as opposed to shows with sexual pandering where it feels as if I'm watching the same things over and over again. Then again, if they did continually pander to a different genre enough, that would get just as boring soon enough, I am sure. I guess there really is not a way to win here.
31764 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
26 / The Raggedy Edge
Offline
Posted 12/12/15
What you are perhaps failing to account for is that this is an entirely economically facilitated situation, the current otaku culture is what pays for anime - 'we' (which is to say the western market) are piss in the wind as far as a viable source of a sustainable income is concerned. While the market for anime is certainly improving for us, it is still very much a niche, and whatever we contribute right now, is pocket change in all but the very best circumstances.

The thing is, for the most part, and contrary to your assert, sexual fan-service is often piecemeal at best, with the number of ongoing series advocating that model being exceptionally small in number. Indeed, the only examples I can think of right now at least, are To-Love-Ru and High School DxD - both of which persistently make their money back enough for studios to make a new season. However, as I said, they are but two and the majority of these series are little more than an ad for a light novel, manga, or videogame/mobilegame. And in the cases of those three motivators, the anime is window-dressing, it's essentially (albeit expensive) throwaway material to garner interest - and in most cases, this is evident in the series length, and overall production quality.

Despite that, you are not wrong (by any means) in saying that it can and possibly does have a detrimental effect on the 'culture' - sadly, however, this is in part wherein I must disagree strongly. As I said you are not wrong, the detrimental effect is there, however, to link this to sexuality alone is ignorant (or at least shortsighted). Fanservice, as a term has been ill-fatedly and irrevocably it seems tied to the inclusion of sexual themes - yet it features in a myriad of forms everywhere, and in anime, it is at least noticed. You mention that certain sexual tropes are used as plot devices, however, the very same is true of action. It is, while appealing to the eyes and ears, empty spectacle that shows off exactly what its audience wants.

Gundam series have done this for the better part of 20 years to my knowledge, with the main character not just being a survivor, but essentially being a superhero. Of course, the Gundam series often addresses meaningful aspects of sociology, psychology, politics, and philosophy in war - I can at least give it credit for that. However, as a contrast, could not the same argument you make in addressing sexuality be applied to 'horror' series such as Terra-Formars? A series in which the gore aspects are depicted in similarly gratuitous fashion as sexual material are in anything ecchi or outright sexual. Indeed, upon watching Terra-Formars first few episodes uncensored, I couldn't help but draw account of how the explicitly bloody and violent scenes were depicted in much the same way as pantie-shots and breasts (bare or otherwise).

While I am in no way opposed to any of these things, I do take issue with the idea that the presence of sexuality is anymore 'damaging' than anything else. A good number of series have aired this year wherein the use of sexuality has been contextualized, and the series themselves have had altogether different focuses. Some of them 'Junketsu no Maria' for example has a succubus in its cast, and she makes explicit references to a multitude of sexual acts, however, it is contextualized and is not a major focus. It isn't even there to draw attention, it's just a part of what's going on. In Spring's lineup we had Ghost in the Shell: Arise, and it treated sexuality and nudity in much the same way - a thing that is a part of life. This general theme of some being mature in their use of sexual themes, and others explicitly pandering has been pretty much consistent this year.

Ultimately, I disagree with the idea that sexual themes, content and tropes is adversely affecting anime to the extent that it will kill it off in a few years. Due the zenith of the internet and the nature of information exchange, there is no longer 'past' there is 'now and everything to come'. By that I specifically mean people can, through analysis of the preceding decade of anime, recognize roughly the same density of quality to tripe. Indeed, how many series that aired between 2003-2005 do you remember now? Probably only the good ones. What really contributes to this idea I can only really guess; attitudes toward gender politics (feminism etc.), nostalgia - and in my opinion; as costs of production and expectations of an audience go up, low production quality and presentation, typically present in the ecchi shows becomes more apparent. Finally, I'll state that anime as a creative medium has suffered far less decay than mainstream movies, prudishness surrounding sexuality is really the only difference. A lot of massive blockbuster releases are fan-wank. Films designed by committee to draw in as many people as possible with all pretty lights and sounds, all surface and no content.

As you took the time to go into detail, I thought it prudent that I return the courtesy. As I said, I don't disagree with your core complaint, however, I think it is merely an easy target as the tip to an iceberg of a far larger problem.
70026 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
27 / M / USA
Online
Posted 12/12/15 , edited 12/13/15

Edit: I need to think about this more.
reinux 
8264 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
M / Vancouver
Offline
Posted 12/12/15 , edited 12/12/15

mow123 wrote:


reinux wrote:

It's kind of a boobs arms race at this point.

Maybe if the studios can agree to a season of less fan service (just let Pixiv do it), the genuinely crappy shows relying on boobs will die a la natural selection, and a lot of people who quit watching anime because they feel awkward watching softcore porn all the time might come back.


Pixiv only cares about Osomatsu-san now lol. When you miss out on a massive group of people like that, lots of money you could of made. You know in japan they sell fan works, so lot of the nasty people who make those types of things get the money rather than the company. So that is not advisable, to let pixiv get that share.

I think a company like Key has the right idea, don't let fanservice hinder your works but don't avoid it and make lots of ludes when you make physical goods lol.


Only because that's what every other studio does. Fan service earns you a bigger cut of the pie, but it has also drastically shrunk the pie itself.

Key's great, but I can't, for example, tell my mom to play Air, as much of a bookworm/otaku as she is.

By the way, Osomatsu-san's a good example of a show that has zero fan service and, as a result, has managed to recapture a massive audience that's lost to the rest of anime.
14128 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
27
Offline
Posted 12/12/15

reinux wrote:


mow123 wrote:


reinux wrote:

It's kind of a boobs arms race at this point.

Maybe if the studios can agree to a season of less fan service (just let Pixiv do it), the genuinely crappy shows relying on boobs will die a la natural selection, and a lot of people who quit watching anime because they feel awkward watching softcore porn all the time might come back.


Pixiv only cares about Osomatsu-san now lol. When you miss out on a massive group of people like that, lots of money you could of made. You know in japan they sell fan works, so lot of the nasty people who make those types of things get the money rather than the company. So that is not advisable, to let pixiv get that share.

I think a company like Key has the right idea, don't let fanservice hinder your works but don't avoid it and make lots of ludes when you make physical goods lol.


Only because that's what every other studio does. Fan service earns you a bigger cut of the pie, but it has also drastically shrunk the pie itself.

Key's great, but I can't, for example, tell my mom to play Air, as much of a bookworm/otaku as she is.

By the way, Osomatsu-san's a good example of a show that has zero fan service and, as a result, has managed to recapture a massive audience that's lost to the rest of anime.


Lol why not? as long as you give her the ME version of AIR it shouldn't be a problem.

Osomatsu-san has that large share because of the naughty fan girls that makes it extend into that slice of pie as well as the non eroge group. But the fans are making the eroge money not the maker, it is a double edged sword.

I feel key gives you options as much as they can. They never let it hinder their game/anime but they still take advantage of it. Even the games they make just for the eroge group, like kud wafter gets an all ages version. Not that the game is any good or anything even in all ages form lol. (well compared to the major titles they make)
reinux 
8264 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
M / Vancouver
Offline
Posted 12/12/15 , edited 12/12/15

mow123 wrote:


reinux wrote:


mow123 wrote:


reinux wrote:

It's kind of a boobs arms race at this point.

Maybe if the studios can agree to a season of less fan service (just let Pixiv do it), the genuinely crappy shows relying on boobs will die a la natural selection, and a lot of people who quit watching anime because they feel awkward watching softcore porn all the time might come back.


Pixiv only cares about Osomatsu-san now lol. When you miss out on a massive group of people like that, lots of money you could of made. You know in japan they sell fan works, so lot of the nasty people who make those types of things get the money rather than the company. So that is not advisable, to let pixiv get that share.

I think a company like Key has the right idea, don't let fanservice hinder your works but don't avoid it and make lots of ludes when you make physical goods lol.


Only because that's what every other studio does. Fan service earns you a bigger cut of the pie, but it has also drastically shrunk the pie itself.

Key's great, but I can't, for example, tell my mom to play Air, as much of a bookworm/otaku as she is.

By the way, Osomatsu-san's a good example of a show that has zero fan service and, as a result, has managed to recapture a massive audience that's lost to the rest of anime.


Lol why not? as long as you give her the ME version of AIR it shouldn't be a problem.



Because it's self-defeating to explain to my mom, "Oh, this is an eroge, but I'm going to get you to play the all-age version because you're my mom and it would be awkward if you read the same smut I just read."

It's like trying to eat in the washroom. It just doesn't feel right. And if it doesn't feel right, a lot of people aren't going to bother watching it. It's just entertainment, after all.
19120 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Offline
Posted 12/13/15 , edited 12/13/15
Not again.

We have this thread every month.

It'll be interesting on how this argument will change if a whole bunch of isekai stuff comes out within the next two years.
14128 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
27
Offline
Posted 12/13/15


Rofl so every time you watch something like The Terminator with her, you awkwardly explain to her that the original theater release contains sex in it so that is why you are watching the TV/Edited version. Awkward...... or you can just say nothing. You are creating the awkwardness not the game/movie.

Well you can think whatever the hell you want to I don't really care. To me It just feels like you know nothing about air and its releases.
reinux 
8264 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
M / Vancouver
Offline
Posted 12/13/15

mow123 wrote:



Rofl so every time you watch something like The Terminator with her, you awkwardly explain to her that the original theater release contains sex in it so that is why you are watching the TV/Edited version. Awkward...... or you can just say nothing. You are creating the awkwardness not the game/movie.

Well you can think whatever the hell you want to I don't really care. To me It just feels like you know nothing about air and its releases.


You're kinda missing my point. The perception of someone who isn't already immersed in this particular subculture is much more jaded than someone who is. Terminator was never marketed as porn; Air was. And lately, so is much of the anime genre as a whole.

Releasing an all-age version makes that more acceptable to some people, but the fact that it was originally intended as porn doesn't change just because you remove the explicit stuff with surgical specifity.

And it isn't that there's anything wrong with porn, obviously, it's just that now because of its perception, even all-age adaptations of games that used to be porn have to compete for the porn market rather than for the general audience. That goes for anime itself, because the well's been so poisoned by an onslaught of boobs anime. And as far as most people are concerned, you can't out-porn actual porn -- especially not on TV.

So your market shrinks.

> To me It just feels like you know nothing about air and its releases.

It happens that it's one of my favorite games. But having to explain what exactly it is is a pain in the ass, and few people are convinced that "I played it for the plot."

That's why that phrase has become a meme.
15746 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
37 / M / Virginia USA
Online
Posted 12/13/15
I'm just going to keep my post here short and sweet. Take it as you want.

I believe people overthink and overanalyze sex, sexual relationships and the sexualization of characters and stories. These things come and go in waves. It happens in comics books, it happens in movies, it happens in anime and books. It happens in every artform. i remember when people thought that all the sexual comedies of the 1980's were supposed to kill the movie industry.

This too shall pass.

For me personally, I dig sexual content. That's right. I said it.
First  Prev  1  2  3  Next  Last
You must be logged in to post.