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Posted 12/24/15

J-POP187 wrote:

This is a new word I keep hearing about. Especially with South Park this season. What ever happened to colleges being about discussions of varying opinions and accepting all views. Personally any colleges that make it a point to promote space spaces I would turn my kids away from if I had kids. Being able to accept and work with people who you don't like is part of reality. By creating these types of places I believe it is doing a disservice to those who attend colleges. Are we at the point where people would rather hide under blankets and pillows instead of having discussions. I weep for the future of this country.

From what I could find

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=safe+space



A place where college students can go if they have been subjected to ideas that differ from the progressive narrative. These safe spaces have pillows, soothing music and an understanding, sympathetic staff. Presumably, this allows them to recover from the trauma; free from any lasting damage resulting from exposure to ideas that conflict with their leftist professors.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe-space


In educational institutions, safe-space (or safe space), safer-space, and positive space are terms used to indicate that a teacher, educational institution or student body do not tolerate perceived anti-LGBT violence, harassment, hate speech or disagreement, but rather are open and accepting to opinions aligned to their own, thereby creating a safe place for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and all students.


So what do you think good idea to promote safe space?


All I can say is, if you need a safe space because some professor 'traumatized/triggered/whatever the kids say nowadays' you, then maybe you should just stay the hell home.
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Posted 12/24/15

PeripheralVisionary wrote:

Depends. In order to promote tolerance you have to promote intolerance of intolerance. You can tolerate such factors, but you can ban a wide array of speeches that are related to a topic. Let's be honest, no one should accept intolerance as a part of life. It must be vigorously opposed while at the same time tolerated in peaceful conditions. College isn't the place for hate speech in my opinion. They can tolerate any club, meeting or association they want or not that is conducive to the learning environment.



Here's what I think the main idea is. We won't tolerate bigotry. And I think that is ultimately a good thing. We don't tolerate sexism, we don't tolerate racism, so why on earth should we tolerate bigotry against LGBT people?


The problem is that these safe spaces are nothing about "hate speech", they are about counter opinions no matter how respectfully they are delivered. If someone politely says "I disagree with you and here are my reasons why", they are verbally accosted and removed, all the while being called the aggressor.
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Posted 12/24/15

J-POP187 wrote:

This is a new word I keep hearing about. Especially with South Park this season. What ever happened to colleges being about discussions of varying opinions and accepting all views. Personally any colleges that make it a point to promote space spaces I would turn my kids away from if I had kids. Being able to accept and work with people who you don't like is part of reality. By creating these types of places I believe it is doing a disservice to those who attend colleges. Are we at the point where people would rather hide under blankets and pillows instead of having discussions. I weep for the future of this country.

From what I could find

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=safe+space



A place where college students can go if they have been subjected to ideas that differ from the progressive narrative. These safe spaces have pillows, soothing music and an understanding, sympathetic staff. Presumably, this allows them to recover from the trauma; free from any lasting damage resulting from exposure to ideas that conflict with their leftist professors.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe-space


In educational institutions, safe-space (or safe space), safer-space, and positive space are terms used to indicate that a teacher, educational institution or student body do not tolerate perceived anti-LGBT violence, harassment, hate speech or disagreement, but rather are open and accepting to opinions aligned to their own, thereby creating a safe place for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and all students.


So what do you think good idea to promote safe space?


Alternative: university funded host/hostess clubs like Ouran High School Host Club

People are sad, and here are some beautiful women/charming men to talk with to make you feel better.
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Posted 12/24/15
Yeah... because people bullying doesn't exist at college. As soon as you turn into an adult you can no longer be bullied and you don't deserve a safe space. Right...
Posted 12/24/15
"safe places" should only exist within counseling and they should exist within your own private area (Like a journal or something.) I also don't see the harm in people seeking out like minded groups and I think that such private groups should be respected. For instance, a person who does not struggle with alcohol consumption should not come into an AA meeting and mess with the process done there and be disrespectful to them and I also believe that such places should be allowed to decline people if they seek to disrupt processes as that. I also think that if someone was being genuinely threatened like with violence/harm then a "safe place" would be appropriate, but that doesn't seem to be what these people are suggesting necessarily.

But my examples are mostly all private/counseling type areas where such a "safe" environment is encouraged and is deemed vital to progression during the therapy. Such places are designed to only exist in that one setting and not in any other, they're used for different reasons, but basically the point is to work within that setting and then apply it to other settings that might not be "safe." A college classroom is no place for such a thing. If you feel hurt by what someone says then challenge it and speak about such matters like people do. As a transgender person I am forced to succumb to a lot of violent rhetoric, but I recognize that if such things go unchallenged and if I just hide away in a "safe space" then nothing will change. I have a "safe place" to go back to in my own privacy, but it's not like I force the outside world to accommodate my hurt feelings.
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Posted 12/24/15

eclair-lumiere wrote: Yeah... because people bullying doesn't exist at college. As soon as you turn into an adult you can no longer be bullied and you don't deserve a safe space. Right...
so you mean they should have a safe space?
and if bullying then that would be just even worse to have it.

Posted 12/24/15 , edited 12/24/15

sundin13 wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:

Depends. In order to promote tolerance you have to promote intolerance of intolerance. You can tolerate such factors, but you can ban a wide array of speeches that are related to a topic. Let's be honest, no one should accept intolerance as a part of life. It must be vigorously opposed while at the same time tolerated in peaceful conditions. College isn't the place for hate speech in my opinion. They can tolerate any club, meeting or association they want or not that is conducive to the learning environment.



Here's what I think the main idea is. We won't tolerate bigotry. And I think that is ultimately a good thing. We don't tolerate sexism, we don't tolerate racism, so why on earth should we tolerate bigotry against LGBT people?


The problem is that these safe spaces are nothing about "hate speech", they are about counter opinions no matter how respectfully they are delivered. If someone politely says "I disagree with you and here are my reasons why", they are verbally accosted and removed, all the while being called the aggressor.


I'm just saying what I believe the main idea is. They promote LGBT acceptance at school as well, and ultimately I think it works. However, our class steers away from the topic at all cost. Why? Because it personally affects them on some level compare to say, abortion. I'm not inherently against the idea of safe spaces promoting tolerance. I am however against the scenario you described, but I'm not sure it is the scenario for most schools.


OP, like all people, have shown a consistent bias that sadly I noticed for logging on one too many times. If someone liked Biscutnote or Michael z007 posted, would you not be skeptical about the scenario presented before you? However, it appears to be a case of someone doing something about said speaker.


However, we're in an age where we have affirmative action, which for some people is worst than safe spaces.
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Posted 12/24/15


Just goes to show that going to a prestigious school doesn't mean you are smart.
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Posted 12/24/15

eclair-lumiere wrote:

Yeah... because people bullying doesn't exist at college. As soon as you turn into an adult you can no longer be bullied and you don't deserve a safe space. Right...



More like, as soon as you turn into an adult, you become responsible for dealing with your own bullying problems. Of course, there is a line that bullies cannot cross without breaking the law, but other than that it is on individuals to deal with their own shit.

In fact, your post is EXACTLY what we are talking about. The lack of understanding that bullies are just part of life. That you need to deal with them on your own, as an adult. Instead you expect everyone else to establish policies and laws that go against freedom of expression, just so you don't get your feelings hurt.

Grow the hell up. Seriously.
Posted 12/24/15

HolyDrumstick wrote:


eclair-lumiere wrote:

Yeah... because people bullying doesn't exist at college. As soon as you turn into an adult you can no longer be bullied and you don't deserve a safe space. Right...



More like, as soon as you turn into an adult, you become responsible for dealing with your own bullying problems. Of course, there is a line that bullies cannot cross without breaking the law, but other than that it is on individuals to deal with their own shit.

In fact, your post is EXACTLY what we are talking about. The lack of understanding that bullies are just part of life. That you need to deal with them on your own, as an adult. Instead you expect everyone else to establish policies and laws that go against freedom of expression, just so you don't get your feelings hurt.

Grow the hell up. Seriously.


Bullies are not a part of life and we must do everything we can to curb their influence without encroaching on our rights. That's my view. Bullying does not deserve a place as being a part of growing up. However, I'm curious how you pulled all that out of the OP's one post on the subject in this thread. Bullying is not protected free speech in any way, and should remain against school policy. Bullying by nature is continued of one time use of intimidation or otherwise, and it has no place in any professional workplace. I believe what you want to protect is opinions that are not bullying but are merely expressed in the open, I.E. I don't believe in gay marriage. I agree with you there. I disagree with normalizing bullies however. You can get fired for this sort of stuff, whether it be sexual harassment or otherwise.
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Posted 12/24/15 , edited 12/24/15

PeripheralVisionary wrote:


HolyDrumstick wrote:


eclair-lumiere wrote:

Yeah... because people bullying doesn't exist at college. As soon as you turn into an adult you can no longer be bullied and you don't deserve a safe space. Right...



More like, as soon as you turn into an adult, you become responsible for dealing with your own bullying problems. Of course, there is a line that bullies cannot cross without breaking the law, but other than that it is on individuals to deal with their own shit.

In fact, your post is EXACTLY what we are talking about. The lack of understanding that bullies are just part of life. That you need to deal with them on your own, as an adult. Instead you expect everyone else to establish policies and laws that go against freedom of expression, just so you don't get your feelings hurt.

Grow the hell up. Seriously.


Bullies are not a part of life and we must do everything we can to curb their influence without encroaching on our rights. That's my view. Bullying does not deserve a place as being a part of growing up. However, I'm curious how you pulled all that out of the OP's one post on the subject in this thread. Bullying is not protected free speech in any way, and should remain against school policy. Bullying by nature is continued of one time use of intimidation or otherwise, and it has no place in any professional workplace. I believe what you want to protect is opinions that are not bullying but are merely expressed in the open, I.E. I don't believe in gay marriage. I agree with you there. I disagree with normalizing bullies however. You can get fired for this sort of stuff, whether it be sexual harassment or otherwise.


First, my post was ONLY in response to the post I quoted, so not sure what your nonsense about subject lines and all that was about.

Second, Bullying IS normal. I'm not normalizing anything. Bullying will always exist, in whatever form is allowed, no matter how many policies you put in place. Bullying may be nasty and suck.... but the same can be said of hunger, pain, and sadness.... yet they are all part of being human.

The problem occurs when people like you believe it is unnatural and can therefore be fixed. Rather than fixing bullying, fix yourself and learn to deal with it. I was bullied, and am currently bullied. What do I do? Well, it sure as hell isn't ask for the government to fix my problems for me by destroying the right to expression. It isn't demanding institutions create a "Safe Space" for my feelings.

Also, how in the hell do you even reason with yourself that bullying isn't normal? That's crazy. Much of social conditioning and teaching is done through teasing, etc. It is as necessary as a puppy socializing with other pups to learn bite control... and it takes BITING. What isn't normal is the current adults' ability to deal with bullying.
Posted 12/24/15 , edited 12/24/15

HolyDrumstick wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:


HolyDrumstick wrote:


eclair-lumiere wrote:

Yeah... because people bullying doesn't exist at college. As soon as you turn into an adult you can no longer be bullied and you don't deserve a safe space. Right...



More like, as soon as you turn into an adult, you become responsible for dealing with your own bullying problems. Of course, there is a line that bullies cannot cross without breaking the law, but other than that it is on individuals to deal with their own shit.

In fact, your post is EXACTLY what we are talking about. The lack of understanding that bullies are just part of life. That you need to deal with them on your own, as an adult. Instead you expect everyone else to establish policies and laws that go against freedom of expression, just so you don't get your feelings hurt.

Grow the hell up. Seriously.


Bullies are not a part of life and we must do everything we can to curb their influence without encroaching on our rights. That's my view. Bullying does not deserve a place as being a part of growing up. However, I'm curious how you pulled all that out of the OP's one post on the subject in this thread. Bullying is not protected free speech in any way, and should remain against school policy. Bullying by nature is continued of one time use of intimidation or otherwise, and it has no place in any professional workplace. I believe what you want to protect is opinions that are not bullying but are merely expressed in the open, I.E. I don't believe in gay marriage. I agree with you there. I disagree with normalizing bullies however. You can get fired for this sort of stuff, whether it be sexual harassment or otherwise.


First, my post was ONLY in response to the post I quoted, so not sure what your nonsense about subject lines and all that was about.

Second, Bullying IS normal. I'm not normalizing anything. Bullying will always exist, in whatever form is allowed, no matter how many policies you put in place. Bullying may be nasty and suck.... but the same can be said of hunger, pain, and sadness.... yet they are all part of being human.

The problem occurs when people like you believe it is unnatural and can therefore be fixed. Rather than fixing bullying, fix yourself and learn to deal with it. I was bullied, and am currently bullied. What do I do? Well, it sure as hell isn't ask for the government to fix my problems for me by destroying the right to expression. It isn't demanding institutions create a "Safe Space" for my feelings.

Also, how in the hell do you even reason with yourself that bullying isn't normal? That's crazy. Much of social conditioning and teaching is done through teasing, etc. It is as necessary as a puppy socializing with other pups to learn bite control... and it takes BITING. What isn't normal is the current adults' ability to deal with bullying.


I misspoke. Bullying doesn't deserve to be considered a rite of passage. Like hunger and sadness, and pain, it must not be accepted unless the utmost circumstances call for it, and it must be vigorously opposed. I'm appalled at you attempting say that bullying has a place as being a rite of passage that we all go through. If it is harmful, if it does "suck", then why not institute laws going against it? Bullying is by nature, harassment. And harassment already has laws in the books. What next, Sex is natural, therefore we shouldn't deal with sexual harassment? I don't think that's what you're saying, but it can inferred that you merely think such laws are useless or otherwise overly inhibiting of one's actions in a society, and that implications are frightening. Or you just made no sense. Hunger, which is vigorously opposed by places like the food banks, sexual harassment, which has institutions to deal with only women, etc.


And why must one deal with bullying by ones self? Should there not be authorities to be against such a thing to whom you may report such incidences too? The notion that you should be forced to deal with it yourself is bs in my opinion. I believe bullying is a problem that troubles the very institution it dwells, and look at the progress we made! You can get fired for these sorts of thing. Now I think that's mighty successful.


So, to sum it all up, bullying is harassment, and you can report that to someone, and is generally against the rules of most workplaces and schools. All as it should be.

Now I agree certain aspects of safe spaces do encroach on personal freedoms or we're being a bit too intolerant of certain opinions. But bullying is most certainly a harmful, continued action that has no place in our schools. I'm not advocating for safe space, I'm against you saying the idea is ridiculous because bullying must be accepted.


I don't think you're arguing for bullying to be free speech. I think you're arguing against laws that unjustly curbs against rights like expressing a dissenting opinion. However, let's go define bullying.

Verbal bullying is saying or writing mean things. Verbal bullying includes:
Teasing
Name-calling
Inappropriate sexual comments
Taunting
Threatening to cause harm

Physical bullying involves hurting a person’s body or possessions. Physical bullying includes:
Hitting/kicking/pinching
Spitting
Tripping/pushing
Taking or breaking someone’s things
Making mean or rude hand gestures


What part of these actions should a school or workplace tolerate? None of them!
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Posted 12/24/15 , edited 12/24/15

PeripheralVisionary wrote:


You misunderstand me. I'm not encouraging bullying or bullies. It is bad.

However, I think that bullying should generally be handled by the individual. Back to bite control - puppies learn bite control because when they bite too hard, they get bitten back hard.

See, instead of standing up to bullies, we tell our children to run to an adult and have them deal with it. Which leads to children being dependent on someone else to fix their problems and the inability to deal with things they may find emotionally or mentally hurtful. This translates into adults wanting "Safe Spaces" and laws to protect their feelings. That's absurd.

The reason that other forms of harassment are dealt with by the law is due to circumstances that may force a person to not be able to stand up to someone else on their own, such as job positions, or being much weaker physically and not being able to stand up to people.... there is NO excuse for not being about to handle emotional and mental bullying unless you are simply not an emotionally and mentally mature or stable individual. Are you saying you have emotional or mental problems?

On top of this, there is an importance behind freedom of expression. When the government begins telling you what you can and cannot say, you're on a slippery slope to a horrible situation. No one's feelings are important enough to take freedom from everyone.... especially when the problem is actually just that you won't grow up and deal with shit yourself.


Also, I see no reason for the government to make policies that outlaw teasing, name-calling, or taunting. When I was a kid they had a saying: Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me.

As far as physical bullying and the rest of it, there are already laws in place for those.
Posted 12/24/15 , edited 12/24/15

HolyDrumstick wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:


You misunderstand me. I'm not encouraging bullying or bullies. It is bad.

However, I think that bullying should generally be handled by the individual. Back to bite control - puppies learn bite control because when they bite too hard, they get bitten back hard.

See, instead of standing up to bullies, we tell our children to run to an adult and have them deal with it. Which leads to children being dependent on someone else to fix their problems and the inability to deal with things they may find emotionally or mentally hurtful. This translates into adults wanting "Safe Spaces" and laws to protect their feelings. That's absurd.

The reason that other forms of harassment are dealt with by the law is due to circumstances that may force a person to not be able to stand up to someone else on their own, such as job positions, or being much weaker physically and not being able to stand up to people.... there is NO excuse for not being about to handle emotional and mental bullying unless you are simply not an emotionally and mentally mature or stable individual. Are you saying you have emotional or mental problems?

On top of this, there is an importance behind freedom of expression. When the government begins telling you what you can and cannot say, you're only a slippery slope to a horrible situation. No one's feelings are important enough to take freedom from everyone.... especially when the problem is actually just that you won't grow up and deal with shit yourself.


Also, I see no reason for the government to make policies that outlaw teasing, name-calling, or taunting. When I was a kid they had a saying: Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me.

As far as physical bullying and the rest of it, there are already laws in place for those.

I"m sure there's a middle ground between being intolerant of bullying and intolerant of people's rights. Let's cross that bridge when we get to it. Though let's talk about this quote.


there is NO excuse for not being about to handle emotional and mental bullying unless you are simply not an emotionally and mentally mature or stable individual. Are you saying you have emotional or mental problems?

Shouldn't laws exist to protect these vulnerable individuals, who are often more prone to suicide and whatnot? No? Oh well.

Not to mention this little iota of mine. "REMEMBER, CHILDREN ARE ESPECIALLY VULNERABLE TO BULLYING." I cannot stress this enough. They aren't emotionally stable half of them and they vary greatly in stature. That's why I'm disturbed by your quote. Because we shouldn't expect children to deal with it. That's what parents are for, administrators, the works. We cannot expect all adults to be okay after bullying. When someone commits suicide over bullying, don't you want someone to be held accountable? What, blame the victim? Bollocks.

Now I'm not entirely sure what laws are in the books concerning bullying, but probably concerns things like continued bullying, Ala harassment. Which is illegal. I'm not advocating for laws concerning actually making these acts illegal, that's another debate, what I'm concerned about is making it against the rules in such a work place or school. I think they're fully justified for doing so in Schools, as stated above.


So, to sum it all up, I don't believe in your method of bite back control. I believe it is truly biting back when we go to our institution to end the bullying their and now. To make a safe space for those to afraid to directly confront their bullies. Now isn't that a dream?

Bullying is a harmful act that all blame should rest primarily on the one perpetuating it. Not the victim. It's views like these that mental help isn't seeked sooner. Because of the stigma that you're weak if you need such a thing. That too is bollocks.

Now here's what I support. Environment conducive to the fact that people feel comfortable getting help, whether mental or authority, and a environment where people are discouraged to bullying. It's the whole "legal, but we discourage it method." Except for the legal part, you can get charged in certain aspects.

Now back on topic, I do agree that dissenting opinions should be tolerated. Why? They're not inherently bullying, and I believe that is should be the gist of your argument.


Edit: BTW, Merry Christmas. I enjoy talking to people like you for some odd reason.
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Posted 12/24/15 , edited 12/24/15

PeripheralVisionary wrote:
Not to mention this little iota of mine. "REMEMBER, CHILDREN ARE ESPECIALLY VULNERABLE TO BULLYING." I cannot stress this enough. They aren't emotionally stable half of them and they vary greatly in stature. That's why I'm disturbed by your quote. Because we shouldn't expect children to deal with it. That's what parents are for, administrators, the works. We cannot expect all adults to be okay after bullying. When someone commits suicide over bullying, don't you want someone to be held accountable? What, blame the victim? Bollocks.

Now I'm not entirely sure what laws are in the books concerning bullying, but probably concerns things like continued bullying, Ala harassment. Which is illegal. I'm not advocating for laws concerning actually making these acts illegal, that's another debate, what I'm concerned about is making it against the rules in such a work place or school. I think they're fully justified for doing so in Schools, as stated above.


So, to sum it all up, I don't believe in your method of bite back control. I believe it is truly biting back when we go to our institution to end the bullying their and now. To make a safe space for those to afraid to directly confront their bullies. Now isn't that a dream?

Bullying is a harmful act that all blame should rest primarily on the one perpetuating it. Not the victim. It's views like these that mental help isn't seeked sooner. Because of the stigma that you're weak if you need such a thing. That too is bollocks.


Now back on topic, I do agree that dissenting opinions should be tolerated. Why? They're not inherently bullying, and I believe that is should be the gist of your argument.


Children are not pets, you are training them to be adults. The majority problem with overly sensitive adults is that they weren't taught how to stand up to bullies and/or deal with their emotions when they were kids.

Adults should NOT be protected from emotional and mental bullying. Sorry, that's fucking nonsense. No adult should be punished for calling another adult a stupid whiny little bitch, for being a stupid whiny little bitch, just because that person is stupid whiny little bitch who can't handle it emotionally. Sorry. (That's just one example that is popping into my mind, at the moment.)

No adult should be punished for saying or wearing something that someone finds offensive (Within reason. There are laws in place that are reasonable.)

Grow up.

If you REALLY want to fix the problem with suicides, you'd be better off encouraging healthy and educational, rather than crippling, upbringing. This includes teaching children how to deal with their feelings without thinking the world is caving in. Your "solution" will lead us deeper into a hole of dependence, and eventually no one will be here to tell you that you're just being stupid. BUT, guess what? Bullying will STILL exist. You can't outlaw it. People will always find a way to bully, even if more and more indirectly, and that's just how things are. Except, at that point, no one will have enough spine to deal with it.
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