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Post Reply NYC fines employers $250,000 for getting someone's "gender" wrong
Posted 12/25/15

Rujikin wrote:


PrinceJudar wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:

So would referring to someone by the wrong pronoun intentionally and repeatedly be considered a type of harassment?


When done in a casual fashion and simple refusal (possibly on the grounds of beliefs). No. Aggressively and maliciously, in a way one could prove that it provides a threatening environment. Yes.

People who are honestly malicious and hostile towards transgenders will not stop being a dick just because they can't refer to them with the wrong pronoun. There are other ways to harass someone, if that is the intention.





Give some examples of how he/she is used aggressively or in a threatening way.



PeripheralVisionary wrote:


PrinceJudar wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:

So would referring to someone by the wrong pronoun intentionally and repeatedly be considered a type of harassment?


When done in a casual fashion and simple refusal (possibly on the grounds of beliefs). No. Aggressively and maliciously, in a way one could prove that it provides a threatening environment. Yes.

People who are honestly malicious and hostile towards transgenders will not stop being a dick just because they can't refer to them with the wrong pronoun. There are other ways to harass someone, if that is the intention.





I believe that simple refusal does create a threatening environment. Intentional is by nature Intentionally malicious, isn't it?


You know people getting hostile and aggressive because people call them the wrong "gender" is a threatening environment too.


Because the environment is already threatening by you refusing to call them by their preferred gender identity due to their supposed "delusion" that you won't support. (Even though that's a load of crap.)
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Posted 12/25/15
PV.....I don't really know what I should say here. I mean if I am honest, I must give a situtation before I continue

A event occured where the person in question identified as a girl, but when tried to date men, was rejected due to her physical chracteristics......


Now...... I have to ask, what would be the gender of the person in question, if their biology didn't match what they felt to be inside? This is something I always ask myself when discussing these topics, and I always think about this incident I heard on the news. But I honestly don't know. Biological sex is something that shouldn't be ignored, but I think how the person wishes to be should be somewhat taken into account.

I can see where you are coming from yourself PV, but I can also see where most of the others here are coming from too, in some instances

Okay....Let me think.
First off, the fine is bloody outrageous. I don't know about the possibility of getting a fine should be a reasonable punishment, but the amount given is far too great. A person's life could be utterly devoured at the amount that is being sued for. This is a highly unreasonable amount for something like this. No physical damage was done, and that makes this price all the more difficult to even grasp. The lawsuit seems unlikely to go through, given that the defendant couldn't pay this off, and would most likely be sent to prison.

Now.....Should what the person did be considered harassment?

This is the part I have trouble with the most. Because this seems to be a grey area. Should not calling someone the gender they associate with be considered harassment? I don't think it is enough of a magnitude to be considered such. While yes, insults do offend others, I don't think people should be punished by the full extent of the law for such a thing. If they were, the prison rate would rise like a rocket. I think people who say anti transgender things should be ignored. Singular insults shouldn't be handled like this, with such heavy laws, it's just too severe for the action committed. I think perhaps if it is bothering the person, they should take it up with the manager/boss and have a meeting to attempt to resolve the issue. And if the issue isn't resolved, then I feel that the employer should decide what to do about the situation (Firing, other actions)
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Posted 12/25/15
I iz confused. Are people just stupid or am I?
Aren't there like 2 genders? Male and Female? If you don't have the D, then you are female, right? (Pretty sure the insides are what makes you male/female though. Organs and whatnot, reproductive organs.)
Posted 12/25/15 , edited 12/25/15

CreatorTheta wrote:

PV.....I don't really know what I should say here. I mean if I am honest, I must give a situtation before I continue

A event occured where the person in question identified as a girl, but when tried to date men, was rejected due to her physical chracteristics......


Now...... I have to ask, what would be the gender of the person in question, if their biology didn't match what they felt to be inside? This is something I always ask myself when discussing these topics, and I always think about this incident I heard on the news. But I honestly don't know. Biological sex is something that shouldn't be ignored, but I think how the person wishes to be should be somewhat taken into account.

I can see where you are coming from yourself PV, but I can also see where most of the others here are coming from too, in some instances

Okay....Let me think.
First off, the fine is bloody outrageous. I don't know about the possibility of getting a fine should be a reasonable punishment, but the amount given is far too great. A person's life could be utterly devoured at the amount that is being sued for. This is a highly unreasonable amount for something like this. No physical damage was done, and that makes this price all the more difficult to even grasp. The lawsuit seems unlikely to go through, given that the defendant couldn't pay this off, and would most likely be sent to prison.

Now.....Should what the person did be considered harassment?

This is the part I have trouble with the most. Because this seems to be a grey area. Should not calling someone the gender they associate with be considered harassment? I don't think it is enough of a magnitude to be considered such. While yes, insults do offend others, I don't think people should be punished by the full extent of the law for such a thing. If they were, the prison rate would rise like a rocket. I think people who say anti transgender things should be ignored. Singular insults shouldn't be handled like this, with such heavy laws, it's just too severe for the action committed. I think perhaps if it is bothering the person, they should take it up with the manager/boss and have a meeting to attempt to resolve the issue. And if the issue isn't resolved, then I feel that the employer should decide what to do about the situation (Firing, other actions)


Even I said the law fine was too high, although the likelihood of being max would probably be low. My entire argument was if it were harassment, then you should be able to take actions, my proposal being termination of position, but only in certain cases depending on severity.
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Posted 12/25/15 , edited 12/25/15

PeripheralVisionary wrote:

I believe that simple refusal does create a threatening environment. Intentional is by nature Intentionally malicious, isn't it?


No it does not. I do not think refusing to cater to such requests are intentionally malicious. Some people may not agree with the transgender lifestyle, but it does not necessarily follow that they are hateful towards them.

I think a polite "I'm sorry, but I will not refer to you by your preferred pronoun" is more than fine. There exists such a honest and polite disagreement. You don't want to prevent those people from having civil and honest expression by pressuring them into following opposable beliefs. People are more likely to change their positions when not forced to do so. The people that bring issue, are those that are malicious.

Also, telling transgenders they should 'feel' harassed when referred to by an incorrect pronoun is not healthy. They should be told that they ought not to be bothered by it.

We keep teaching people that they ought to 'feel' offended by the most trivial of words. It makes people more sensitive to them--and it follows--more easily hurt by them. Such things can simply be ignored and less weight placed on them. We don't want people, and kids, to 'feel' like words should hurt them so easily.

There's a reason we have the saying: "sticks and stones may break my bones but words cannot hurt me". It's something we teach our kids so they don't go around getting hurt by every small matter that crosses their path. You do more harm to them when you validate the weight of the words.

You're telling them they should take such as a threat or act of maliciousness towards their person. That's not good.



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Posted 12/25/15 , edited 12/25/15

Rujikin wrote:

Give some examples of how he/she is used aggressively or in a threatening way.
Calling out to someone in passing when you have no reason to.
Walking next to them and whispering it in their ear because you don't agree with it.
Reffering to their gender when itd normally be out of place to.

In other words she means bullying them about it. Going out of your way to call them by their actual gender.
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Posted 12/25/15

PeripheralVisionary wrote:

Because the environment is already threatening by you refusing to call them by their preferred gender identity due to their supposed "delusion" that you won't support. (Even though that's a load of crap.)


So if a furry identify as a Dog/kin I should refer to them as a dog and not a human otherwise I am creating a threatening environment.... NO just NO. You know even if someone tries to "change" their gender their sex is still the same so if I call a wanabe male a female I am still correct because their sex and DNA is still male. If they take offence to it then its their problem because I am speaking the truth.
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Posted 12/25/15 , edited 1/2/16

Magical-Soul wrote:

Yes it does, that's where the "freedom" part comes in. The right to self expressions trumps anything someone might feel offends them. If this law gets passed, than every insult, every low blow comment, every generalization will have to get funded for equality before the law, otherwise this is LGBT safe space law and it should be abolished.

No law shall be made to protect a group.


Which is what the same people that are headlining gender role issues are fighting for; the right for the government to censor every dogma but their own. Point in case, Sarkeesian's appeal to the UN or the entire "safe space" ordeal. Yes, on paper the opposition of sexism, racism, xenophobia, and a general negative attitude to preferred genders sounds nice, but we know that in practice the supporters have been far from pacifistic. We know the new authoritarians are radical liberals.
Posted 12/25/15 , edited 12/25/15

Rujikin wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:

Because the environment is already threatening by you refusing to call them by their preferred gender identity due to their supposed "delusion" that you won't support. (Even though that's a load of crap.)


So if a furry identify as a Dog/kin I should refer to them as a dog and not a human otherwise I am creating a threatening environment.... NO just NO. You know even if someone tries to "change" their gender their sex is still the same so if I call a wanabe male a female I am still correct because their sex and DNA is still male. If they take offence to it then its their problem because I am speaking the truth.


Hasn't various organizations like May-Clinic, which you quoted, also identify possible solutions/treatment to gender dysphoria as therapy to help ascertain the identity which they wanted to express?

http://www.mayoclinic.org/medical-professionals/clinical-updates/psychiatry-psychology/mayo-provides-integrated-care-for-people-with-gender-dysphoria


Couldn't find the link, but apparently they do offer such treatments for those with gender dysphoria.


Also another link, don't know if it is reliable, but....

Mental health support can begin at any age, beginning in early childhood. The purpose of mental health support is never to alter an individual’s gender identity, but rather to help him or her cope with any challenges posed by gender dysphoria.

Counseling, peer support, individual therapy, couples therapy, and family therapy are common treatments for individuals who have gender dysphoria. The purpose of these treatments is to help an individual and his/her loved ones adjust and cope in a positive manner, as individuals with gender dysphoria are at an increased risk of depression, anxiety, and self-harm, as well as being at a high risk of experiencing abuse, harassment, and violence. Treatment therefore seeks first and foremost to support the mental health of individuals with gender dysphoria and their loved ones.

http://conditions.healthgrove.com/l/431/Gender-Dysphoria
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Posted 12/25/15

XxDarkSasuxX wrote:


Rujikin wrote:

Give some examples of how he/she is used aggressively or in a threatening way.
Calling out to someone in passing when you have no reason to.
Walking next to them and whispering it in their ear because you don't agree with it.
Reffering to their gender when itd normally be out of place to.

In other words she means bullying them about it. Going out of your way to call them by their actual gender.


How is calling out to them aggressive or threatening?
Whispering "dude/he/gal/she" in the ear is not aggressive or threatening.
That isn't an example that is a situation. Give an example.
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Posted 12/25/15 , edited 12/25/15

Rujikin wrote:


XxDarkSasuxX wrote:


Rujikin wrote:

Give some examples of how he/she is used aggressively or in a threatening way.
Calling out to someone in passing when you have no reason to.
Walking next to them and whispering it in their ear because you don't agree with it.
Reffering to their gender when itd normally be out of place to.

In other words she means bullying them about it. Going out of your way to call them by their actual gender.


How is calling out to them aggressive or threatening?
Whispering "dude/he/gal/she" in the ear is not aggressive or threatening.
That isn't an example that is a situation. Give an example.

In passing is the keyword here. You're walking to your destination and you happen to pass the person in question and you casually say male/female. That's having unwarranted hostility.

Edit: just read your post as opposed to skimming it.
That is being aggressive.
You are being assertive to a person who wants you to fuck off.
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Posted 12/25/15

Rujikin wrote:
How is calling out to them aggressive or threatening?
Whispering "dude/he/gal/she" in the ear is not aggressive or threatening.
That isn't an example that is a situation. Give an example.


For example, bullying. It's the difference between making a joke about someone's smile, and bullying them about it. One is harmless, the other takes a different kind of effort and fairly obvious intention.



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Posted 12/25/15
Okay, I am opening up a live discussion on Discord. We can all type live there. https://discordapp.com/channels/130006990670790657/130006990670790657

And this way, the conversation is a bit more organic
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Posted 12/25/15 , edited 1/2/16

PeripheralVisionary wrote:

Hasn't various organizations like May-Clinic, which you quoted, also identify possible solutions/treatment to gender dysphoria as therapy to help ascertain the identity which they wanted to express?

http://www.mayoclinic.org/medical-professionals/clinical-updates/psychiatry-psychology/mayo-provides-integrated-care-for-people-with-gender-dysphoria

Couldn't find the link, but apparently they do offer such treatments for those with gender dysphoria.


If money can be made by "curing" someone then someone will list it as a disease. The real cure to it is to just accept yourself and stop thinking the grass is greener on the other side.

Example: http://www.webmd.com/anxiety-panic/features/is-shyness-mental-disorder

Also answer this you always refer to gender but what -IS- gender really:

Who even determines what a gender identity is? Sex is obvious: Penis/Vagina. Who determines what a gender identity is and who decides what is acceptable/unacceptable for the chosen gender? What is to prevent one person's gender from being different from another person's gender if they both choose female?


CreatorTheta wrote:

Okay, I am opening up a live discussion on Discord. We can all type live there. https://discordapp.com/channels/130006990670790657/130006990670790657

And this way, the conversation is a bit more organic


Why should I register for another site? screw them!
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Posted 12/25/15 , edited 12/25/15
I'm sure actual trans people aren't even affected by this. I bet it's more the gender-fluid XE pronoun 'give me attention' tumblr idiots that have wanted this.
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