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Post Reply Actual gun murder rates do not reflect loose gun laws.
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22 / M / Arizona
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Posted 12/29/15

HolyDrumstick wrote:


So frustrating. Again, you're trying to say there is a correlation between gun control and less gun violence, but that simply isn't true. Switzerland is also low on the list, and everyone has a gun.

AGAIN, it IS more than about gun control, but gun control doesn't help as much as people think it does.

My point is not that we have low gun violence, it is simply that gun control does not change anything. I seriously wish we could test it without permanently losing our rights. Yeah, there may be a little less gun violence, but less murder overall? Probably very slightly.

And very slightly isn't enough to get rid of people's rights.


Sorry not trying to frustrate you man just giving you some input, we cant grow if no one disagree's with us : )

Anyway Exactly Switzerland has alot of guns, but they also have tight restrictions on who uses and how they are used. You could say they are a happy medium of gun control and freedom.

We can test it Australia already did. http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide.html.
That's my point You have to accept that having guns there are going to be people who abuse it and hence gun related deaths. Gun control does work, but is it worth infringing on peoples rights? In my opinion its not. So we agree I was just pointing out that tthe talking point gun control doesn't work isn't really true.
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27 / M / Ark-La-Tex
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Posted 12/29/15

HolyDrumstick wrote:



So frustrating. Again, you're trying to say there is a correlation between gun control and less gun violence, but that simply isn't true. Switzerland is also low on the list, and everyone has a gun.


That's actually not true. The private gun ownership rate in Switzerland is around 25% as of 2014. Swiss gun laws are only slightly less strict than the rest of the EU.
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102 / M / Hicksville Ohio(n...
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Posted 12/29/15
Australia
Copy pasted news highlights
Murders at a low, but knife use on the rise
Gun-related homicide dropped to a historic low of 13 per cent but the frequency of people dying from stab wounds jumped from 30 per cent to 41 per cent over the previous decade.
Stab wounds were the most commonly recorded cause of death at 38 per cent, followed by beatings at 25 per cent with gunshot wounds accounting for 13 per cent.
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Posted 12/29/15 , edited 12/29/15

HolyDrumstick wrote:

I'm not saying that, either. All I am saying is that you can't say that it WOULD, based on the stats.


I don't particularly disagree. The stats we have are inconclusive. We should need to actually to something to see if it would help because there are so many confounding factors.

However, your point does not mean that we should not change gun laws.

EDIT: Also worth noting, when speaking about Australia, that "gun control" doesn't equal "remove all guns". You cannot say that gun control doesn't work because Australia's fairly ridiculous solution "didn't work". As with most of these back and forth debates, there is a middle ground which needs to be reached to provide the best results.
Posted 12/29/15

hicksvilledave wrote:

Australia
Copy pasted news highlights
Murders at a low, but knife use on the rise
Gun-related homicide dropped to a historic low of 13 per cent but the frequency of people dying from stab wounds jumped from 30 per cent to 41 per cent over the previous decade.
Stab wounds were the most commonly recorded cause of death at 38 per cent, followed by beatings at 25 per cent with gunshot wounds accounting for 13 per cent.


I've been stabbed before. It's not that bad.
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Posted 12/29/15

hicksvilledave wrote:

Australia
Copy pasted news highlights
Murders at a low, but knife use on the rise
Gun-related homicide dropped to a historic low of 13 per cent but the frequency of people dying from stab wounds jumped from 30 per cent to 41 per cent over the previous decade.
Stab wounds were the most commonly recorded cause of death at 38 per cent, followed by beatings at 25 per cent with gunshot wounds accounting for 13 per cent.


I'd much rather be attacked by someone with a knife than a gun. It's much easier to run away or fight back.
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102 / M / Hicksville Ohio(n...
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Posted 12/29/15

PeripheralVisionary wrote:


hicksvilledave wrote:

Australia
Copy pasted news highlights
Murders at a low, but knife use on the rise
Gun-related homicide dropped to a historic low of 13 per cent but the frequency of people dying from stab wounds jumped from 30 per cent to 41 per cent over the previous decade.
Stab wounds were the most commonly recorded cause of death at 38 per cent, followed by beatings at 25 per cent with gunshot wounds accounting for 13 per cent.


I've been stabbed before. It's not that bad.


that happens when you piss off women...

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102 / M / Hicksville Ohio(n...
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Posted 12/29/15

geauxtigers1989 wrote:


hicksvilledave wrote:

Australia
Copy pasted news highlights
Murders at a low, but knife use on the rise
Gun-related homicide dropped to a historic low of 13 per cent but the frequency of people dying from stab wounds jumped from 30 per cent to 41 per cent over the previous decade.
Stab wounds were the most commonly recorded cause of death at 38 per cent, followed by beatings at 25 per cent with gunshot wounds accounting for 13 per cent.


I'd much rather be attacked by someone with a knife than a gun. It's much easier to run away or fight back.



True.. A baseball bat is a good counter for a dipshit with a knife.
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24 / M
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Posted 12/29/15
Also worth noting that homicides in Australia were on an upward trend at the time of the buyback, and leveled out and dropped following the buyback and are now on a downward trend.



Even the ridiculousness of pulling the rug from under Australia's feet didn't really cause too much in the way of problems, but it did show that gun control does remove guns from the hands of criminals.
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Posted 12/29/15
Lots of overlapping factors to consider when you talk about gun violence: Education, poverty/wealth, culture, population/density, crime, regulation, access to firearms, etc.

I think it's hard to make the case that gun control has nothing to do with gun crime though. Simply looking at gun crime compared to regulation doesn't really get you anywhere, especially considering how inconsistent the law is in the US.

If you can limit criminal access to guns you should see less gun crime. That seems like a reasonable hypothesis. It's debatable what kind of regulations can best accomplish this, however.

The most I can take away from your link is that gun crime can not be entirely prevented via regulation, and I don't think anyone would argue that point.
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Posted 12/29/15

PeripheralVisionary wrote:

I think what we need to keep in mind that the US is different from, say Japan. We have a much more diverse population, for one.


Quoted for truth. During the 50's beating blacks meant you were a true KKK member. Now we have some black gangs having members beat whities for membership. Japan doesn't have that issue because other races/colors/whatever are like unicorns over there.

On top of that we are a nation built by immigrants so our culture is a giant clusterfuck while japan has a pretty uniform culture in comparison.
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Posted 12/29/15

sundin13 wrote:

Also worth noting that homicides in Australia were on an upward trend at the time of the buyback, and leveled out and dropped following the buyback and are now on a downward trend.



Even the ridiculousness of pulling the rug from under Australia's feet didn't really cause too much in the way of problems, but it did show that gun control does remove guns from the hands of criminals.


Your graph shows gun buyacks are worthless. Not been a blip happened during the gun buybacks and confiscations.

You want to know what works? Education + helping those that are stuck in the criminal loop get out of it. I can't look it up right now but the best way to reduce crime is to turn criminals into honest citizens since most crime is by repeat offenders.
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Posted 12/29/15

Rujikin wrote:

Your graph shows gun buyacks are worthless. Not been a blip happened during the gun buybacks and confiscations.

You want to know what works? Education + helping those that are stuck in the criminal loop get out of it. I can't look it up right now but the best way to reduce crime is to turn criminals into honest citizens since most crime is by repeat offenders.


I agree with that sentiment in many ways. Huge restructuring needs to happen in our school systems and prison systems for a ton of reasons (not just crime). However, again, that isn't to say that gun control as a whole is worthless. Virtually everybody agrees with some degree of gun control (for example, convicted felons should not get to own guns), that discussion is about how much...it is not a binary question (yes/no).
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23 / M / Abyss
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Posted 12/29/15 , edited 12/29/15



Sure, I can get behind that idea. However, the world average homicide rate is 7.6 per 100,000. The US is sitting pretty with half of the average, at 3.8. That's for the entire world. And supposedly we have crazy gun culture, or whatever. That's overall murder rate, also, because let's face it, if you want to kill someone, you are going to figure out how.

Switzerland is at .6, and everyone has a gun, pretty much.

The point isn't to find a correlation, and if it were, then yes it wouldn't be enough info. However, it is plenty of info to dismiss the correlation between Gun Control = Less murder.


Everyone brings up Switzerland without researching lol. What idiots. Either way. They have mandatory military service. This includes psychological evaluations. If you fail that you will not get a gun, nor serve in the military. Problem solved. Rigorous testing to prove if you are fit to own a gun. America makes it way too easy.
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Posted 12/30/15

Dark_Alma wrote:

Everyone brings up Switzerland without researching lol. What idiots. Either way. They have mandatory military service. This includes psychological evaluations. If you fail that you will not get a gun, nor serve in the military. Problem solved. Rigorous testing to prove if you are fit to own a gun. America makes it way too easy.


What an assumption. I am well aware of Switzerland's military service requirement. I mention Switzerland because I view them as a decent model. The problem is that most of the anti-gun advocates are also against mandatory military service.

Personally, I feel like everyone should be required to serve at least 2-4 years in either the military or another public service. I actually volunteered and served my four. I passed all the evaluations. *shrug*

If anti-gun advocates would start pushing for a more Switzerland like policy, which required military service, I'd support that 100%. Unfortunately, they do not.

I also regularly ask anti-gun advocates what they would do to improve the situation, because I am honestly willing to support fair measures. Unfortunately, their suggested measures are either crazy, already implemented, or an outright gun ban.

My point is that MOST, not all, anti-gun advocates are actually the least informed about US gun policy. The reason for this is that legal gun owners actually have gone through the background checks, etc.... and know the limitations, permits, etc, that one needs. This is why our answer is always: We have enough laws.

Most anti-gun advocates actually know squat about firearms, have never owned a firearm, and therefore push for things that make little sense.

AND, I'm not saying that things couldn't be done better. I am simply saying that I do not have the answers, but I KNOW an outright gun-ban isn't the answer, and I ask you, who pushes for such things to provide suggestions.... REASONABLE suggestions.
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