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Post Reply Socialism promotes slavery
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Posted 12/31/15

Morbidhanson wrote:


The law does not need to be in place for you to be a slave. You merely need to be sufficiently restrained by the reasonable fear of a swift and severe punishment that is disproportionate to that which is usually merited by your "wrongful" undertaking.


Which is exactly how and why anarchy can and does work as its own form of government. You need not be afraid of lawful punishment to be afraid of retaliation. In the end, MOST people will be civil to a degree, even without laws, because they worry about swift justice from the wronged or their loved ones. Especially when there is no law preventing such retaliation. Unfortunately, there are always those who have enough power to act however they want, and this is why anarchy doesn't work forever. Those people in power will create their own forms of government within that anarchy, and there is no established government to stop it. Then things get ugly.

This is why the earliest forms of government weren't democratic or very good for the people as a whole.
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Posted 12/31/15

Ranwolf wrote:


biscuitnote wrote:


If I'm going to be taken care of no matter what then I don't have to do my best. At its core that is why socialism is an ideology of slaves who need to be protected.


And you're assuming the group i,e society at large is going to put up with your slack. You are mistaking Socialism for something else entirely. Even under the incompetent Soviets those who failed too spectacularly in their duty were punished..Perhaps a little too swiftly and a little too harshly but no system is without a system of reward and punishment.

But you way of thinking and attitude are crystal clear examples why Socialism as it stands wouldn't work as it is now. Too few people understand the concept of duty and self sacrifice. Of working to make the world around them a better place, of putting themselves on the line regardless of the price that has to be paid.

Maybe when people with the kind of mindset that work contrary to the noble nature a human can possess are bred out or killed off maybe Socialism will work.


Irishsushi wrote:

I think if you go to an extreme of any economic system there will be problems. I can't see why we can't take the good ideas from capitalism and mesh them with socialism.


Karl Marx tried that, it might have worked but Russia wasn't the place to try that.


Its not just my way of thinking its how most people think. Capitalism recolonizes that trait and uses it. It lets you fully express your best work and the best are rewarded instead of the lazy and mediocre under socialism. I am not arguing for pure capitalism by the way I understand a balance will have to be struck. I believe it is in the best interests of the majority to have a primarily capitalistic country with a few programs.
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Posted 12/31/15 , edited 12/31/15

HolyDrumstick wrote:
Which is exactly how and why anarchy can and does work as its own form of government. You need not be afraid of lawful punishment to be afraid of retaliation. In the end, MOST people will be civil to a degree, even without laws, because they worry about swift justice from the wronged or their loved ones. Especially when there is no law preventing such retaliation. Unfortunately, there are always those who have enough power to act however they want, and this is why anarchy doesn't work forever. Those people in power will create their own forms of government within that anarchy, and there is no established government to stop it. Then things get ugly.

This is why the earliest forms of government weren't democratic or very good for the people as a whole.



The more people there are, the more necessary a strong central government becomes. Anarchy would probably work for a small, primitive village because the physical threats are enough to keep offenders in line. But it does seem more intuitive that people naturally gravitate toward strong leaders/groups that support their ideals. I think it is this tendency that prevents anarchy from working forever. People inevitably form their own little factions and the chaos increases as the scale of the conflicts between the growing factions increase. It snowballs until weaker competitors are crushed or assimilated, so there needs to be a central government to stop it.
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Posted 12/31/15

Morbidhanson wrote:


The more people there are, the more necessary a strong central government becomes. Anarchy would probably work for a small, primitive village because the physical threats are enough to keep offenders in line. But it does seem more intuitive that people naturally gravitate toward strong leaders/groups that support their ideals. I think it is this tendency that prevents anarchy from working forever. People inevitably form their own little factions and the chaos increases as the scale of the conflicts between the growing factions increase.


Actually, this is really spot on.

If you want to read a manga that illustrates this rather well, you should check out Suicide Island. It isn't as much about suicide as it sounds.... well, after the first few chapters, at least.

It also will never finish, but it does stop at a relatively decent spot, after a major climax.

It's rather interesting to see how the factions form...and how they're both based on different goals and principles. Though, most of it isn't really all that much about that.

Overall, I'd recommend it just because it's damned good.
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Posted 12/31/15

HolyDrumstick wrote:


Morbidhanson wrote:


The more people there are, the more necessary a strong central government becomes. Anarchy would probably work for a small, primitive village because the physical threats are enough to keep offenders in line. But it does seem more intuitive that people naturally gravitate toward strong leaders/groups that support their ideals. I think it is this tendency that prevents anarchy from working forever. People inevitably form their own little factions and the chaos increases as the scale of the conflicts between the growing factions increase.


Actually, this is really spot on.

If you want to read a manga that illustrates this rather well, you should check out Suicide Island. It isn't as much about suicide as it sounds.... well, after the first few chapters, at least.

It also will never finish, but it does stop at a relatively decent spot, after a major climax.

It's rather interesting to see how the factions form...and how they're both based on different goals and principles. Though, most of it isn't really all that much about that.

Overall, I'd recommend it just because it's damned good.

Is there an anime for suicide island or just a manga?
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Posted 12/31/15 , edited 12/31/15

biscuitnote wrote:



Its not just my way of thinking its how most people think. Capitalism recolonizes that trait and uses it. It lets you fully express your best work and the best are rewarded instead of the lazy and mediocre under socialism. I am not arguing for pure capitalism by the way I understand a balance will have to be struck. I believe it is in the best interests of the majority to have a primarily capitalistic country with a few programs.


Again you keep harping on the lack of reward a Socialist society would have to offer it's citizens. Indeed you think those who fail to improve the lot of society at large would be rewarded with their welfare and needs taken care of. A nation state like that wouldn't exist, it's own citizens would lynch those in charge if such a thing even came to pass.

And the only thing Capitalism rewards is selfish greed and putting your wants and desires above what is best for the world at once. I don't need a Ferrari and a five story mansion to tell me I am doing a good job . And people that need such a base and filthy reward to measure their self worth aren't worth the air they are breathing anyway. I can measure my self worth and accomplishment in a prefect Socialist society by the fact they are no beggars on the street, that every child is being fed and educated in the fields that they desire. That there is food in everyone bellies and no one is dying in the battlefields Capitalism has lead us to. That we are all living in well built houses that aren't glided testimonies to our own selfish natures. And that young, old, and everyone in between knows what duty is.

Those are all the rewards a human being who isn't a greedy pig should need.
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Posted 12/31/15

Ranwolf wrote:


biscuitnote wrote:



Its not just my way of thinking its how most people think. Capitalism recolonizes that trait and uses it. It lets you fully express your best work and the best are rewarded instead of the lazy and mediocre under socialism. I am not arguing for pure capitalism by the way I understand a balance will have to be struck. I believe it is in the best interests of the majority to have a primarily capitalistic country with a few programs.


Again you keep harping on the lack of reward a Socialist society would have to offer it's citizens. Indeed you think those who fail to improve the lot of society at large would be rewarded with their welfare and needs taken care of. A nation state like that wouldn't exist, it's own citizens would lynch those in charge if such a thing even came to pass.

And the only thing Capitalism rewards is selfish greed and putting your wants and desires above what is best for the world at once. I don't need a Ferrari and a five story mansion to tell me I am doing a good job . And people that need such a base and filthy reward to measure their self worth aren't worth the air they are breathing anyway. I can measure my self worth and accomplishment in a prefect Socialist society by the fact they are no beggars on the street, that every child is being fed and educated in the fields that they desire. That there is food in everyone bellies and no one is dying in the battlefields Capitalism has lead us to. That we are all underneath well built houses that aren't glided testimonies to our own selfish natures. And that young, old, and everyone in between knows what duty is.

Those are all the rewards a human being who isn't a greedy pig should need.


Who are you to tell someone what they can and can not do with the resources they have acquired? I know several millionaires who live in normal houses and drive normal cars not all rich people are evil like the socialists claim. Capitalism is about providing the best service and being rewarded for it. If anything its the socialists that are greedy pigs because they want to have their cake and eat it to. They want the best without putting in the work.
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Posted 12/31/15 , edited 12/31/15

biscuitnote wrote:

Is there an anime for suicide island or just a manga?


No. Unfortunately, I don't think it got the support it deserved, due to a lower quality of art, an unflattering name, and a somewhat delicate subject matter. It probably didn't help that almost all the first few chapters were about was the shock, and included a ton of suicide.

I'm not sure the writer really knew where he was taking the story, at first, to be honest. When he did figure it out, it was great, though.

I actually just breezed through all the first few chapters without taking care to read carefully. I do this a lot to see if I'm actually going to enjoy it. Then, when saw where the story was headed, I invested in it, and went back to carefully read it all.
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Posted 12/31/15

PeripheralVisionary wrote:

Wow, we agree that even in anarchy people would still be civilized? I also agree. We might have more in common than I thought. Frightening.


*shrug* I have a lot in common with a lot of people as far as political views are concerned. That's because I think for myself, rather than blindly following this or that party. I have not and never will just check Dem or Republican on a ballet and vote on a party line. I don't even think that should be allowed, personally.
Sooo... when thinking for myself, I see a lot on both sides that are wrong, and a lot on both sides that are right, and the INSANITY of anyone blindly following a political party.

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Posted 12/31/15

biscuitnote wrote:


Who are you to tell someone what they can and can not do with the resources they have acquired? I know several millionaires who live in normal houses and drive normal cars not all rich people are evil like the socialists claim. Capitalism is about providing the best service and being rewarded for it. If anything its the socialists that are greedy pigs because they want to have their cake and eat it to. They want the best without putting in the work.


What one man has in abundance another lacks entirely, that saying has been true since the dawn of time and until some method of creating unlimited resources is created someone will always suffer so that another can prosper.

And by what insane leap of logic do you accuse a Socialist society of being compromised of lazy and shiftless individuals. A Socialist society would only thrive and indeed only scrap by the sweat and hard work of it's members. Since the resources needed to maintain even a basic level of comfort and well being is enormous. That want isn't satisfied by mere words or rhetoric spewed by some Soviet commissar.

Everyone would have to work to their utmost to make a Socialist society prosper, everyone regardless of their position or inclination. There would be no fat slob reclining in a Manhattan penthouse office while some starving African mines the diamonds that adorn his lazy wife's overfed hand.
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Posted 12/31/15

Ranwolf wrote:


biscuitnote wrote:


Who are you to tell someone what they can and can not do with the resources they have acquired? I know several millionaires who live in normal houses and drive normal cars not all rich people are evil like the socialists claim. Capitalism is about providing the best service and being rewarded for it. If anything its the socialists that are greedy pigs because they want to have their cake and eat it to. They want the best without putting in the work.


What one man has in abundance another lacks entirely, that saying has been true since the dawn of time and until some method of creating unlimited resources is created someone will always suffer so that another can prosper.

And by what insane leap of logic do you accuse a Socialist society of being compromised of lazy and shiftless individuals. A Socialist society would only thrive and indeed only scrap by the sweat and hard work of it's members. Since the resources needed to maintain even a basic level of comfort and well being is enormous. That want isn't satisfied by mere words or rhetoric spewed by some Soviet commissar.

Everyone would have to work to their utmost to make a Socialist society prosper, everyone regardless of their position or inclination. There would be no fat slob reclining in a Manhattan penthouse office while some starving African mines the diamonds that adorn his lazy wife's overfed hand.


Well the way I see it I can't really lose I come from a pretty well off background and if for some reason socialism happened I would still be provided for and I wouldn't have to work as hard.
Posted 12/31/15
Let me tell you an example of why a libertarianxSocialism axis might be useful. Take Zoey the feminist. Zoey is an anti sex feminist that believes porn, especially animated, oppresses minority and exploits children. She would be authoritarian left. (Albeit, let's be fair, many feminist of this type wouldn't necessarily be on the compass due to a lack or thereof concerning their other political views. Most don't really care and just want to ban stuff.)

Take Dave, a very conservative guy who wishes to ban lolicon as he sees it as immoral. He is very hard right, but he is also authoritarian.

Marxism Leninism I believe would be authoritarian left? I mean, let's see if this is accurate.



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