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Do People Who Like SAO Even Play MMOs?
Posted 1/5/16

AstroDave wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:


AstroDave wrote:

I kinda get annoyed with people going that isn't how mmo's work when complaining about SAO.

It is a massive multiplayer online virtual reality.....hooking a players nervous system into a game. It does not have to conform to or have the same restrictions or play style as MMO rpg that exist currently.



Depends. I dislike the huge amount of pandering to special snowflake that appears to be done. The show is way too kirito-centric for my taste. This isn't even the rule of cool anymore, it just approaches a gamer's fantasy than an actual MMO. Even Kayaba stated there were glitches, Kirito mentions lag, the simplifying of cooking food, fishing, etc. I feel as if it lost it way.


I mean for one, there's small children playing in an MMO. There's implied to be sexual intercourse. Kirito marries the most beautiful girl in Aincrad and then has a "child" with" her. This just breaks immersion or whatnot.


So your complaint is that the protagonist has the usual perks of being the protagonist. It is Kiritos story he is the hero of the story. Would you complain if these things happened to the designated hero of a story who was stuck in another world instead of a VR simulation.



Kirito mentioning lag could in fact be a hint about his unusual reflexes. As for him being the special snowflake, the duel wielding sword skill was set up to go to the person with the fastest reaction times by the kayaba....so he could duel with that person at the end of the game. Kayaba only cared about the world he created for the sword fighting and the story he wanted to play out.


As for children getting stuck in the game. Don't allot of parents buy and let kids play games inappropriate for their ages.

As for the child they had....it was an AI desigined for the mental health of players stuck unable to do it's job....And it sought out the most happy healthy people it could find when it got into the game.



I do have these problems with other anime, but SAO is even more egregious because game limitations. There's hinted to be other skills I believe. Why aren't they implemented or discovered? Why doesn't Reki say "Hey, we should add more characters with special skills too!"? Because he's too busy crafting an ideal teenage fantasy, much like Accel world, while only bothering the use the game as a backdrop instead of a character in its own right.

Children are not a common sight in MMOs believe it or not, and I believe there would be far less of them considering it is a VR game.


Reason why I harp on the child is essentially it is another character which contributes to the teenage fantasy. Everyone dreams of having the perfect waifu and starting a family with her, but we don't want to see a teenage fantasy, because they're fantasies that are cringe worthy because they do not work (usually) in real life. Take the Maury show where teenage girls try to get pregnant. They can't support a child, and think it'll bring them closer without the struggle that comes with it. Except Yui isn't an actual child, but a well behaved AI that is little like actual children.
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Posted 1/5/16
Of course. Tons of people who play MMOs love SAO. Having played MMOs for years myself, I loved SAO at least partly because I would love to go and experience Aincrad through the VR tech. It really looks like an MMO player's dream.

Personally, I never saw Kirito as a "special snowflake" character. What he gained from the game he also had to sacrifice a lot for. The whole second episode is about how alone Kirito is and how his elite skills ultimately cause him to lose the group of friends he made. Incidentally, in the MMO ArcheAge I was in a guild named the Moonlit Black Cats for a while, named after the guild Kirito joins in episode 2.

I think that people who think the story of SAO is shallow wish-fulfillment starring a Mary Sue character are only looking at the surface. Kirito is not a Mary Sue because he does suffer and twice comes within a millimeter of death. He learns and grows over the course of the story. He faces his flaws and his fears over and over again to move forward. I like Kirito because I honestly think he's a well constructed and developed character and I think people who say he's just a special snowflake are ignoring most of his development just so they can make a point.

But yes, people who play MMOs do like SAO. And there's no reason they shouldn't.
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Posted 1/5/16
I have at least a couple of friends who play the same mmo that I do and also enjoy SAO. They're both pretty casually into anime, dunno if that's co-related or coincidence. I don't think either watch it for the mmo aspect, rather the action and romance.
Posted 1/5/16 , edited 1/5/16

mythopoet wrote:

Of course. Tons of people who play MMOs love SAO. Having played MMOs for years myself, I loved SAO at least partly because I would love to go and experience Aincrad through the VR tech. It really looks like an MMO player's dream.

Personally, I never saw Kirito as a "special snowflake" character. What he gained from the game he also had to sacrifice a lot for. The whole second episode is about how alone Kirito is and how his elite skills ultimately cause him to lose the group of friends he made. Incidentally, in the MMO ArcheAge I was in a guild named the Moonlit Black Cats for a while, named after the guild Kirito joins in episode 2.

I think that people who think the story of SAO is shallow wish-fulfillment starring a Mary Sue character are only looking at the surface. Kirito is not a Mary Sue because he does suffer and twice comes within a millimeter of death. He learns and grows over the course of the story. He faces his flaws and his fears over and over again to move forward. I like Kirito because I honestly think he's a well constructed and developed character and I think people who say he's just a special snowflake are ignoring most of his development just so they can make a point.

But yes, people who play MMOs do like SAO. And there's no reason they shouldn't.


Then why is Kirito being friendly with Kayaba after their final duel? Why did Kirito lose only to have the excuse that Kayaba cheated, for no apparent reason, other than to be accused of Kirito of being the game master? When was Sachi ever relevant to the main storyline? I think sachi was a good addition, but to be so blatantly ignored in the final talk just shows what the author treated it as. An after thought, instead of a tale of heartbreak for Kirito, because as far as Kirito is concerned only Asuna matters. This is the SAME PERSON who blatantly tortures the man who nearly NTRed Asuna in front of him, for no necessary reason other than to get his rage out. So why didn't he lose it on Kayaba? He killed 3000 some players, including someone Kirito cared about, but Kirito merely just accepts the egg.

Sachi was hardly relevant to the storyline to the point they barely mention her later on. Other than that, life's pretty dandy with him, what with his "family", his status as the most powerful front liners, and various other cues.


I don't mean any harm, but I love debating. I hope I didn't offend you.
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Posted 1/5/16
I play mmos and i liked sao a little bit but eh i loved log horizon more.

Honestly my problems with MMO's these days is the lack of solo content (my favourite mmo has solo content thanks god and i know mmo's are not meant to be played alone but sometime you just want to solo some content or solo a solo boss and i honestly think in 2016 we should have solo content.

If i could have an mmo with alot of solo content a market and crafting and raids i would be so happy.

My second problem with MMO's is basically the crafting systems suck..its impossible to make a unique weapon being able to customize stats and effects on it which to me is something i would love to have as when i get into mmo's i play mostly as a crafter so a game with lame crafting like

WoW - GW2 - ESO the list goes on ...just doesn't work for me to play as a crafter.

Honestly im just waiting till mmo's evolve to the point where crafting is a bigger thing and solo content exists.


As an mmo gamer who has played over 20-40 (lost count) mmo's and am playing three at the moment those are my biggest gripes.

OH and alot of mmo's try to be casual now-a-days i love when you got skills like

Strong attack - lvl 1 - 100 xp to go and you had to level up your individual skills by using them just like you did your character and having titles give you buffs dependant on the title.


Honestly this stuff should be basic and come with every mmo.
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Posted 1/5/16 , edited 1/5/16

PeripheralVisionary I write stuff


From reading your replies I believe you lack context and a simple understanding of the period SAO took place.

The original story was put on the internet back in 2001 IIRC. This was when Everquest was king of all MMO's, Dark Age of Camelot had just launched and WoW wasn't even in development. I played EQ starting back in July of 99 and their where children everywhere! It was amazingly common to run across kids 8-12 in a random group; the first guild I joined was ran by a 13yo and no one knew until years later because voice chat wasn't a thing yet. The same with marriage, it was a huge deal in the early days and for members of the top raid guilds it was not uncommon for a GM or Guide to actually preform the nuptials. The early days of MMO's (and the wide spread of the internet post 2k) were very role play heavy where your character could get married (always to the most beautiful partner) have kids and live a life of adventure where you where the star. SAO mimics this for the first 14 episodes perfectly including the boring trade skill part, the luring of players for PK'ers and the overall need to always be on the front lines (raiding) no matter the cost to your real life.

Posted 1/5/16 , edited 1/5/16

Random_Axcess wrote:


PeripheralVisionary I write stuff


From reading your replies I believe you lack context and a simple understanding of the period SAO took place.

The original story was put on the internet back in 2001 IIRC. This was when Everquest was king of all MMO's, Dark Age of Camelot had just launched and WoW wasn't even in development. I played EQ starting back in July of 99 and their where children everywhere! It was amazingly common to run across kids 8-12 in a random group; the first guild I joined was ran by a 13yo and no one knew until years later because voice chat wasn't a thing yet. The same with marriage, it was a huge deal in the early days and for members of the top raid guilds it was not uncommon for a GM or Guide to actually preform the nuptials. The early days of MMO's (and the wide spread of the internet post 2k) were very role play heavy where your character could get married (always to the most beautiful partner) have kids and live a life of adventure where you where the star. SAO mimics this for the first 14 episodes perfectly including the boring trade skill part, the luring of players for PK'ers and the overall need to always be on the front lines (raiding) no matter the cost to your real life.



That doesn't nullify the fact that it is skirting the lines of "masturbatory fantasy", perhaps by appealing to such role players in the first place, just less of a "role play" than one would expect due it mimicking the real world, which was actually decently done, but it doesn't erase the saccharine slice of life episodes with Nishida and Yui in my opinion. The mirror object clearly changed everyone to their original appearance, thus beauty had some of the same value in the real world. as it did in the game. Anyone can be beautiful in a game, but to be as hot as the girls in SAO in real life would a dream come true for any gamer.

Although I suppose you make a fair point in the amount of content that actually does appeal to gamers.

Also, kids are way less common today. I've yet to come across a number of children, especially in the single digits.

But you are correct. I wasn't alive back then.
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Posted 1/5/16 , edited 1/5/16
Wait SAO was 2001? That makes it even /more/ awesome omg.

It was way ahead of its times!!!!!!

EDIT:

...it says on wiki he published the first one in 2009....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_Art_Online
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Posted 1/5/16 , edited 1/5/16

PeripheralVisionary wrote:




It is unless you're endgame or in the early level. MMOs weren't made to be played solo, most people can't solo, and most people don't want to play solo. For every Faker and Polt there's probably thousands of regular people. I frankly don't mind if this was about a Polt or Faker. Even then, the game just doesn't magically give them an Overpowered skill, and only them an overpowered skill, because that would break immersion. A one of a kind item? Sure, I could take it. It happened before. An entirely new way to play not open to other players? That's bullshit. That appeals to special snowflakes who don't play MMOs because unlike single player games, you're not special. You're not against NPCs you can swat aside with enough effort, but genuine humans. Some of which are likely to play as much as you, especially given the fact that they're stuck in the actual game.


As for the actual item allotment, many games are going against that, but I wouldn't be surprised with the social darwinism you see in SAO.


Mate do you even MMO. I have yet to find a single one that can't be soloed for the most part..and I've played a lot of them. Starting with Everquest and now Archeage. The only people that need to form a party in a MMO to grind mid level dungeons are people who don't know how to min/max properly. Yeah a guild is usually a necessity since most MMO's have way too many skills for any one person to master but really forming a full raid of 50 to take on a few npcs is just stupid.

As for the overpowered skill..yeah you don't MMO. Properly built characters can turn their normal skills into pretty much God territory. Least in terms of dps and or damage mitigation. And honestly Kirito's skill is..dual wielding and a somewhat convoluted understanding of the game coding. Now dual wielding, pretty much every melee based MMO has it in one form or another. And knowing how to abuse the game mechanics and coding is something most endgame MMO gamers figure out. Prime example off the top of my head is glitching out GHA in Archeage. I mean hell you can get all the gear it offers with so little effort doing that it might as well be out right cheating.
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Posted 1/5/16 , edited 1/5/16

lambofgenesis wrote:

Wait SAO was 2001? That makes it even /more/ awesome omg.

It was way ahead of its times!!!!!!

EDIT:

...it says on wiki he published the first one in 2009....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_Art_Online


The first light novel of SAO was put online in 2001 after the author didn't win or enter some writing contest. You are reading about the manga or re-release after Accel world.


Ranwolf

Mate do you even MMO. I have yet to find a single one that can't be soloed for the most part..and I've played a lot of them. Starting with Everquest and now Archeage. The only people that need to form a party in a MMO to grind mid level dungeons are people who don't know how to min/max properly. Yeah a guild is usually a necessity since most MMO's have way too many skills for any one person to master but really forming a full raid of 50 to take on a few npcs is just stupid.


Again you have to remember context. in 2001 back in EQ you could not touch similar level mobs without a group unless you were a bard/necro that was geared (by your guild) and very good at kiting. Six man parties where the norm in almost any zone and you could die as a melee character to mobs half your level if more than one was on you.

Also there is a large difference between playing solo and trying to kill raid level mobs of appropriate level solo.
Posted 1/5/16 , edited 1/5/16

Ranwolf wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:


I know I've played only 1 MMO, but it's seriously not required that you join a party or team with friends, as that's what I usually did.


It is unless you're endgame or in the early level. MMOs weren't made to be played solo, most people can't solo, and most people don't want to play solo. For every Faker and Polt there's probably thousands of regular people. I frankly don't mind if this was about a Polt or Faker. Even then, the game just doesn't magically give them an Overpowered skill, and only them an overpowered skill, because that would break immersion. A one of a kind item? Sure, I could take it. It happened before. An entirely new way to play not open to other players? That's bullshit. That appeals to special snowflakes who don't play MMOs because unlike single player games, you're not special. You're not against NPCs you can swat aside with enough effort, but genuine humans. Some of which are likely to play as much as you, especially given the fact that they're stuck in the actual game.


As for the actual item allotment, many games are going against that, but I wouldn't be surprised with the social darwinism you see in SAO.


Mate do you even MMO. I have yet to find a single one that can't be soloed for the most part..and I've played a lot of them. Starting with Everquest and now Archeage. The only people that need to form a party in a MMO to grind mid level dungeons are people who don't know how to min/max properly. Yeah a guild is usually a necessity since most MMO's have way too many skills for any one person to master but really forming a full raid of 50 to take on a few npcs is just stupid.

As for the overpowered skill..yeah you don't MMO. Properly built characters can turn their normal skills into pretty much God territory. Least in terms of dps and or damage mitigation. And honestly Kirito's skill is..dual wielding and a somewhat convoluted understanding of the game coding. Now dual wielding, pretty much every melee based MMO has it in one form or another. And knowing how to abuse the game mechanics and coding is something most endgame MMO gamers figure out. Prime example off the top of my head is glitching out GHA in Archeage. I mean hell you can get all the gear it offers with so little effort doing that it might as well be out right cheating.


You misunderstoof. I'm well aware of min maxing, but my gripe with Dual Wielding is that IT IS ONLY AVAILABLE TO ONE person. An over powered item? Sure. But not something an entire build. Maybe in a character based MMO like Vindictus, but to one player? That just screams Special Snowflake. Not to mention the other egregious examples which include using a knife in a gun MMOFPS (Unless you're doing a speed set in an FPS, this is rarely feasible against most high level players.), and wielding excalibur.

I was speaking from the viewpoint of an average player. It's true. Most people can't solo, either because they lack the skills and the stats.
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Posted 1/5/16
yeah... they all know it. I often mention SAO in WOW trade-chat just to gauge the reaction lol.

and other animes
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Posted 1/5/16 , edited 1/5/16

PeripheralVisionary wrote:


[




You misunderstood. I'm well aware of min maxing, but my gripe with Dual Wielding is that IT IS ONLY AVAILABLE TO ONE person. An over powered item? Sure. But not something an entire build. Maybe in a character based MMO like Vindictus, but to one player? That just screams Special Snowflake. Not to mention the other egregious examples which include using a knife in a gun MMOFPS (Unless you're doing a speed set in an FPS, this is rarely feasible against most high level players.), and wielding Excalibur.

I was speaking from the viewpoint of an average player. It's true. Most people can't solo, either because they lack the skills and the stats.


True only Kirito had the dual wielding skill but plenty..well four or five others were mentioned to have special skills of their own. And it can be inferred from Kirito's and Asuna's dialog on the manner that most people try to hide their special skills. Kirito himself tried his damnedest to keep his dual wielding a secret since he knew it would make people jealous. Kirito also made several mentions Asuna was actually a better dps build then he was and had a better accuracy rating. Well it's never outright stated it seems to me if the love interest is an actually better then so called overpower character she might have her own special skill.

As an MMO gamer I find the concept fascinating. Unique skills sets no other player can access. They would of course have to be balanced against each other and server population would have to be kept low. After all how many unique skills can one game have without breaking the engine running it?

And most people can't solo an MMO because they won't listen to those that can. We try to show how to build a character properly all the time and every time our advice falls on deaf ears for the most part. It's the first rule of anything, you have to learn from the best to be the best. Refuse and don't be surprised when a idiotic AI driven boss hands you and ill built raid members their ass.
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Posted 1/5/16
Yes to both :-)
Posted 1/5/16

Ranwolf wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:


[




You misunderstood. I'm well aware of min maxing, but my gripe with Dual Wielding is that IT IS ONLY AVAILABLE TO ONE person. An over powered item? Sure. But not something an entire build. Maybe in a character based MMO like Vindictus, but to one player? That just screams Special Snowflake. Not to mention the other egregious examples which include using a knife in a gun MMOFPS (Unless you're doing a speed set in an FPS, this is rarely feasible against most high level players.), and wielding Excalibur.

I was speaking from the viewpoint of an average player. It's true. Most people can't solo, either because they lack the skills and the stats.


True only Kirito had the dual wielding skill but plenty..well four or five others were mentioned to have special skills of their own. And it can be inferred from Kirito's and Asuna's dialog on the manner that most people try to hide their special skills. Kirito himself tried his damnedest to keep his dual wielding a secret since he knew it would make people jealous. Kirito also made several mentions Asuna was actually a better dps build then he was and had a better accuracy rating. Well it's never outright stated it seems to me if the love interest is an actually better then so called overpower character she might have her own special skill.

As an MMO gamer I find the concept fascinating. Unique skills sets no other player can access. They would of course have to be balanced against each other and server population would have to be kept low. After all how many unique skills can one game have without breaking the engine running it?

And most people can't solo an MMO because they won't listen to those that can. We try to show how to build a character properly all the time and every time our advice falls on deaf ears for the most part. It's the first rule of anything, you have to learn from the best to be the best. Refuse and don't be surprised when a idiotic AI driven boss hands you and ill built raid members their ass.


I mentioned that as well, which I believe included Klein? *Or maybe that later in the 2nd season. However, none of the others were "major players" and I found it sorely disappointing such a concept was being done merely to appeal to the masses instead of having a variety of characters with different styles of play who can kick ass. This is more or less of case a crew of badasses vs one marty sue.

Depends. Most of the MMOs I played can't be soloed by design, either by nullifying how much dmg you do with time limits or things that require players to be in more than one location.


For example, in my beloved Mabinogi, few people can solo a raid boss with 5mil hp, but fewer people can solo a basic level mission because it requires several players to be in several different locations. Then there are games like Left4Dead which aren't really meant to be soloed as every special insta kills or the massive amounts of mobs. But some of the more generic MMOs skirt this by poor game design.
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