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Post Reply Gender and race swaps in well established stories....
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Posted 1/6/16




At first I was thinking about this, then I figured out that wasn't what you all meant. I was reading that all the new PC comics are such poor sellers that they are starting to effect comic book stores, and most of the new ones are under 20,000 units being moved a month. Yes the old norse gods did weird shit like change genders and have babies and feed people iron skillet pancakes, but why keep rehashing the same shit over and over again.



I mean BAM, right here, great storyline, ok let's go, died on the fuckin' vine. Holy shit, it's 20 years old now... I think Body Bags was the last comics I bought.
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Posted 1/6/16

darchtenshin wrote:

James Bond is also only the name the MI6 give the agent. Thats why the bonds change that isn't their real name.


that's only a fan-theory(and one that makes almost perfect sense), as Skyfall clearly showed it's the character's real name.



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Posted 1/6/16

VZ68 wrote:





At first I was thinking about this, then I figured out that wasn't what you all meant. I was reading that all the new PC comics are such poor sellers that they are starting to effect comic book stores, and most of the new ones are under 20,000 units being moved a month. Yes the old norse gods did weird shit like change genders and have babies and feed people iron skillet pancakes, but why keep rehashing the same shit over and over again.



I mean BAM, right here, great storyline, ok let's go, died on the fuckin' vine. Holy shit, it's 20 years old now... I think Body Bags was the last comics I bought.

I am glad to see all these PC ventures failing. I hope they all collapse upon themselves so PC can finally die!


The norse gods were weird because they were fucking weird. They weren't going it for PC purposes it was just part of the story.

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Posted 1/6/16

dotsforlife wrote:

I care for this about as much as I care for Hollywood remaking movies into trash. Needless to say, I hate it. Why can't they come up with their own material instead of ruining original work?


yeah, get rid of replacement characters like Hal Jordan, Barry Allan and Ted Kord
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Posted 1/6/16 , edited 1/6/16

ran76 wrote:


HolyDrumstick wrote:
The same goes with comics. The gender change with Thor - seriously... just, what? However, in the defense of Marvel, Norse gods did actually gender swap in legends.

And we keep changing the races of people (Wally West to name one). Just... stop. Create new heroes/villains, resurrect old minority heroes, develop their storylines and make them their own thing.

Creed - If you haven't seen this, you REALLY need to. So, the main character is the illegitimate son of Apollo Creed, who has Rocky train him to be a fighter. (I don't believe any of that is a spoiler) However, this kid really makes the Rocky lineage proud, and I'd love to see them make more about his fights, like they did with Rocky. The key to making it a great movie with a black main character is that they created this character from scratch. He owns everything about him. If they'd have tried a Rocky remake with Rocky as a black dude, it just wouldn't have felt genuine. Seriously, it's a great movie, and you should really check it out.


ok, two things:

Thor wasn't gender-swapped, let's make that clear. Thor wasn't turned female. It's a female character using his name(with his permission), and with a similar power-set.

Creed isn't a race-swap as Adonis Creed is not Rocky Balboa with added melanin. Creed is basically a side-story and a well made one at that.

If anything is a race-swap, it would be Wally West. I don't have a problem with using a new or previously established character to take over the role of a hero as long as the story is good, I'll give it a chance. But actually changing the race/gender of a character I disagree with. Characters from an alternate reality(such as 1610-Nick Fury) I can deal with because of their nature of being from a different reality.



Lol. Reading comprehension issues?

My post was basically saying that you should not race/gender swap, and that you should come up with new storylines for a race or gender if you wanted to fill that role.

I was citing Creed and the new Karate Kid as the good way to do it.... not as a race swap, which I am against.

BASICALLY, you're telling me exactly what I posted, on that.... so I don't really know what the issue is, other than outright poor reading skills.

And we've already discussed female Thor. We've acknowledged that it was not an outright gender swap, but it WAS essentially the same thing. They just made an alternate character to do and be the female Thor equivalent. I mean, she even uses the damned hammer.

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Posted 1/6/16

Rujikin wrote:

I am glad to see all these PC ventures failing. I hope they all collapse upon themselves so PC can finally die!


The norse gods were weird because they were fucking weird. They weren't going it for PC purposes it was just part of the story.



It would be funny but it's bring comic book stores down with them. Frank Frazetta would be a total failure in today's market because he would be sexist as fuck, even though the woman wore more clothes than men in most of his art.

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Posted 1/6/16 , edited 1/6/16

darchtenshin wrote:

James Bond is also only the name the MI6 give the agent. Thats why the bonds change that isn't their real name.


False. It shows his parents' headstones at one point, and they're both named Bond. The notion that it is an alias is straight up false.
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Posted 1/6/16

HolyDrumstick wrote:


ran76 wrote:


HolyDrumstick wrote:
The same goes with comics. The gender change with Thor - seriously... just, what? However, in the defense of Marvel, Norse gods did actually gender swap in legends.

And we keep changing the races of people (Wally West to name one). Just... stop. Create new heroes/villains, resurrect old minority heroes, develop their storylines and make them their own thing.

Creed - If you haven't seen this, you REALLY need to. So, the main character is the illegitimate son of Apollo Creed, who has Rocky train him to be a fighter. (I don't believe any of that is a spoiler) However, this kid really makes the Rocky lineage proud, and I'd love to see them make more about his fights, like they did with Rocky. The key to making it a great movie with a black main character is that they created this character from scratch. He owns everything about him. If they'd have tried a Rocky remake with Rocky as a black dude, it just wouldn't have felt genuine. Seriously, it's a great movie, and you should really check it out.


ok, two things:

Thor wasn't gender-swapped, let's make that clear. Thor wasn't turned female. It's a female character using his name(with his permission), and with a similar power-set.

Creed isn't a race-swap as Adonis Creed is not Rocky Balboa with added melanin. Creed is basically a side-story and a well made one at that.

If anything is a race-swap, it would be Wally West. I don't have a problem with using a new or previously established character to take over the role of a hero as long as the story is good, I'll give it a chance. But actually changing the race/gender of a character I disagree with. Characters from an alternate reality(such as 1610-Nick Fury) I can deal with because of their nature of being from a different reality.



Lol. Reading comprehension issues?

My post was basically saying that you should not race gender swap, and that you should come up with new storylines for a race or gender if you wanted to fill that role.

I was citing Creed and the new Karate Kid as the good way to do it.... not as a race swap, which I am against.

BASICALLY, you're telling me exactly what I posted, on that.... so I don't really know what the issue is, other than outright poor reading skills.

And we've already discussed female Thor. We've acknowledged that it was not an outright gender swap, but it WAS essentially the same thing. They just made an alternate character to do and be the female Thor equivalent. I mean, she even uses the damned hammer.


because Mjornir isn't a significant part of what makes Thor... Thor? Next you'll tell me a new Batman can be made without anything bat related. Wonder Woman without the bracelets and rope? Ironman without the armor? Wolverine without the claws and healing factor?
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Posted 1/6/16

ran76 wrote:

because Mjornir isn't a significant part of what makes Thor... Thor? Next you'll tell me a new Batman can be made without anything bat related. Wonder Woman without the bracelets and rope? Ironman without the armor? Wolverine without the claws and healing factor?


No, exactly because that IS what makes Thor Thor. I'm saying it was essentially a gender swap BECAUSE of the reasons you just stated. Seriously, man.

It would be like a dude taking everything that makes up Wonder Woman and calling himself Wonder Man. It's essentially still Wonder Woman.... just with a dick (which you could probably actually find pictures of >.<).

My point is to make unique characters to fill those roles.... NOT drop someone into the role.

At least with Batman, those other than Bruce Wayne who've donned the suit have been someone involved with Batman prior to that.

My point is, don't just paint something a certain way, or drop a female/black person into that role. Make them something new.

It's been done right and done wrong.
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Posted 1/7/16
I'm Batman.


I'm sick of reboots.
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Posted 1/7/16 , edited 1/7/16

HolyDrumstick wrote: That's actually a good way to put it. If you just color swap something, especially something legendary, it'll forever be known as the [insert color] [insert legend]. Like - the black James Bond and the white James Bond. It doesn't change James Bond's identity, it simply creates two versions.

And yes, making a black character needs to account for their culture and upbringing.... it needs to be part of their character. Black should not be something you can paint someone to get a larger audience (and usually these attempts are not successful, anyway).
much actors work either as comic "hey yo you wanna go at it?!" or some action rush hour (if its any good?)
so I mean doing a change for a parody works:
Top 20 Funniest Videos From Everybody Hates Chris
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlcezFaOCAU

Norbit Trailer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmSZJ17ppEQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrYYDyuuKHE
loved how he played 3 characters + having terry crews

VZ68 wrote:
would love that and actual "realism" in how things or maybe the world "works"?
or was it with bit of mixed or like a more dark then berserk?

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Posted 1/7/16

HolyDrumstick wrote:

No, exactly because that IS what makes Thor Thor. I'm saying it was essentially a gender swap BECAUSE of the reasons you just stated. Seriously, man.

It would be like a dude taking everything that makes up Wonder Woman and calling himself Wonder Man. It's essentially still Wonder Woman.... just with a dick (which you could probably actually find pictures of >.<).

My point is to make unique characters to fill those roles.... NOT drop someone into the role.

At least with Batman, those other than Bruce Wayne who've donned the suit have been someone involved with Batman prior to that.

My point is, don't just paint something a certain way, or drop a female/black person into that role. Make them something new.

It's been done right and done wrong.


so Jane Foster had nothing to do with Thor before she picked up the hammer? really? Tell me, did Hal Jordan or Barry Allan know their predecessors before they got their powers? I just find it odd that a good portion of DC's classic characters are themselves replacement characters. If the replacement character is a white male few people say anything about it. if the replacement is a minority and/or female the internet flips their collective shit. When Bucky Barnes took over as Capt.America practically nothing. when Sam Wilson took over "PANDERING! SJW! RAAAGHHH!!!"
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Posted 1/7/16 , edited 1/7/16

ran76 wrote:


HolyDrumstick wrote:

No, exactly because that IS what makes Thor Thor. I'm saying it was essentially a gender swap BECAUSE of the reasons you just stated. Seriously, man.

It would be like a dude taking everything that makes up Wonder Woman and calling himself Wonder Man. It's essentially still Wonder Woman.... just with a dick (which you could probably actually find pictures of >.<).

My point is to make unique characters to fill those roles.... NOT drop someone into the role.

At least with Batman, those other than Bruce Wayne who've donned the suit have been someone involved with Batman prior to that.

My point is, don't just paint something a certain way, or drop a female/black person into that role. Make them something new.

It's been done right and done wrong.


so Jane Foster had nothing to do with Thor before she picked up the hammer? really? Tell me, did Hal Jordan or Barry Allan know their predecessors before they got their powers? I just find it odd that a good portion of DC's classic characters are themselves replacement characters. If the replacement character is a white male few people say anything about it. if the replacement is a minority and/or female the internet flips their collective shit. When Bucky Barnes took over as Capt.America practically nothing. when Sam Wilson took over "PANDERING! SJW! RAAAGHHH!!!"

Jane Foster was in no way heroic before the hammer.

I think you're really reading what I said wrong. I simply said there was a right and a wrong way to do it. That's all.

You don't like what I said? Fine, explain that.

However, your rants are much more clearly a lack of even understanding what I said in the first place.

Cheers
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Posted 1/7/16

Ejanss wrote:
And ftm, the Doctor IS Sherlock Holmes*.


Madam Vastra is Sherlock Holmes, the Doctor just borrowed the name for a few minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rirju6is4Sw

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Posted 1/7/16

HolyDrumstick wrote:
Jane Foster was in no way heroic before the hammer.

I think you're really reading what I said wrong. I simply said there was a right and a wrong way to do it. That's all.

You don't like what I said? Fine, explain that.

However, your rants are much more clearly a lack of even understanding what I said in the first place.

Cheers


except that's untrue. She had merged with Sif in a similar way Thor merged with Don Blake and helped out Thor in a number of story lines. a 10 second google search and a minute of reading would have told you that

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