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Posted 1/11/16 , edited 1/11/16

KingKaio wrote:


RaptorSushi wrote:





Sorry but the facts a little wrong about the Stasi. Having files on people is not the same thing as rounding up dozens or more in a dungeon and massacre... such things happen in countries, but this kind of massacre was not a feature of the GDR. The GDR is famous for something called the Berlin Wall which surrounded the entire Allied occupation zone of West Berlin, and a fully militarized border with barbed wire and concrete barriers between East and West Germany. Those are the facts, but this anime makes it look like 1930s Siberia during the purges and that's incorrect.
I'm not all that concerned about it, it's simply a disappointment, given the way it could have begun with a tranquil situation in early-1980s GDR and shown it being wrecked by invading Beta and there is plenty of potential about a conflict between east and west ideals. I urge you to watch Total Eclipse for a comparison, since this show is related to.


Well, bear in mind that the novel was written by a Japanese person who most likely had no experience dealing with the Stasi outside of reading stuff. It's possible the author could do interviews with people who lived there, but I'd say it's highly unlikely.

And...well, maybe your experience is different from mine, but most people I know who grew up in East Germany *really* don't like to talk about the Stasi, which kinda gives them a mythical feel. I can see how that can lead someone with minimal contact with the culture to assume the worst.
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Posted 1/11/16

Gross1985 wrote:


planetwarrior wrote:


Gross1985 wrote:

1983, Deutsche Demokratische Republik. Mechs? This ought to be interesting. I'll definitely look into this.....after more episodes get released, as there is only one thus far.

How frequently are new episodes uploaded here on CR?


Every Sunday afternoon on EST.

But....but, muh episodes. I want them all noooowwww.


No but seriously; thanks for the heads-up.


I'm the same as you as well, NEEDS MOOOOOAAAAARRRR MUFF-LUFF EPISODES BAYBEE!!

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Posted 1/11/16 , edited 1/11/16

imaginarycreatures wrote:


KingKaio wrote:


RaptorSushi wrote:





Sorry but the facts a little wrong about the Stasi. Having files on people is not the same thing as rounding up dozens or more in a dungeon and massacre... such things happen in countries, but this kind of massacre was not a feature of the GDR. The GDR is famous for something called the Berlin Wall which surrounded the entire Allied occupation zone of West Berlin, and a fully militarized border with barbed wire and concrete barriers between East and West Germany. Those are the facts, but this anime makes it look like 1930s Siberia during the purges and that's incorrect.
I'm not all that concerned about it, it's simply a disappointment, given the way it could have begun with a tranquil situation in early-1980s GDR and shown it being wrecked by invading Beta and there is plenty of potential about a conflict between east and west ideals. I urge you to watch Total Eclipse for a comparison, since this show is related to.


Well, bear in mind that the novel was written by a Japanese person who most likely had no experience dealing with the Stasi outside of reading stuff. It's possible the author could do interviews with people who lived there, but I'd say it's highly unlikely.

And...well, maybe your experience is different from mine, but most people I know who grew up in East Germany *really* don't like to talk about the Stasi, which kinda gives them a mythical feel. I can see how that can lead someone with minimal contact with the culture to assume the worst.



By the 1970s, the Stasi had decided that the methods of overt persecution that had been employed up to that time, such as arrest and torture, were too crude and obvious. It was realised that psychological harassment was far less likely to be recognised for what it was, so its victims, and their supporters, were less likely to be provoked into active resistance, given that they would often not be aware of the source of their problems, or even its exact nature. Zersetzung was designed to side-track and "switch off" perceived enemies so that they would lose the will to continue any "inappropriate" activities.

Tactics employed under Zersetzung generally involved the disruption of the victim's private or family life. This often included psychological attacks, such as breaking into homes and subtly manipulating the contents, in a form of gaslighting – moving furniture, altering the timing of an alarm, removing pictures from walls or replacing one variety of tea with another. Other practices included property damage, sabotage of cars, purposely incorrect medical treatment, smear campaigns including sending falsified compromising photos or documents to the victim's family, denunciation, provocation, psychological warfare, psychological subversion, wiretapping, bugging, mysterious phone calls or unnecessary deliveries, even including sending a vibrator to a target's wife. Usually, victims had no idea that the Stasi were responsible. Many thought that they were losing their minds, and mental breakdowns and suicide could result.

One great advantage of the harassment perpetrated under Zersetzung was that its subtle nature meant that it was able to be plausibly denied. This was important given that the GDR was trying to improve its international standing during the 1970s and 80s, especially in conjunction with the Ostpolitik of West-German chancellor Willy Brandt massively improving relations between the two German states.

"Its only assumed to fear the worst" mkay.
Now bring a tolitarian state with a secret police force known to do fucked up shit into a scenario where humanity is fucked. This is around the time when German unifiers started popping up in the east IRL. Now bring the human equation into mind where these kinds of situations bring the worse in people. In this alternate history the gdr have to literally keep their country afloat or risk having all of western Europe get devoured because of certain dissidents and rebels so going to the extremes is a possibility especially with regimes who aren't afraid to crack a few skulls(again look at the facts on how many people died under communist regimes mao, and Stalin were great role models). But I digress your arguing about alternate history/governance because of an alien invasion. Because obviously under different variables and conditions everything has to be exactly the same. Its not like politics is far more complex then just simple absolutes.


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Posted 1/11/16 , edited 1/11/16
And I urge you to read the actual source material from the visual novels to get a better understanding of what's going.
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Posted 1/12/16 , edited 1/12/16

RaptorSushi wrote:


imaginarycreatures wrote:


KingKaio wrote:


RaptorSushi wrote:












Your reasoning on what could happen in this scenario is fine, I agree that it's possible that things could get out of control in the context of an alien invasion and that would lead to increased brutality- however, if people in power lose their cool and go crazy committing massacres like this -the people, who see nothing to lose between getting eaten by bugs or shot by police would revolt; INCLUDING the military- who would never even go into battle with that kind of shit going on. There would be chaos.

This is what I mean by a 'delicate' situation within the GDR, they could not carry out a massacre policy in the East with an allied occupation zone sitting smack in the middle of their country under their nose, and with the risk of causing an avalanche of refugees into the west- which would destabilize the situation so much it could trigger a war between Soviet occupying forces and American/British ones... and it was afterall a massive outflow of refugees in 1989 that brought the regime to collapse (people on the news speculated about the possibility of war breaking out, I remember it well)
And perhaps the revolt/chaos scenario is one the writers are going for in this series, now that I think about what happened at the end of Total Eclipse. But I agree that it's just likely the writers are largely ignorant about the GDR... which makes me question why they would situate this story in that specific (and today nearly forgotten-it's-so-obscure) country.

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Posted 1/12/16

RaptorSushi wrote:




I'm well aware of this. However, you'll note that one of the things they weren't prone to doing was gangland-style executions, a la Mexican drug cartels (not to say they didn't do this, but it really wasn't their M.O.). While it is hypothetically possible that they could go this direction, I personally disagree with the author's interpretation of the Stasi responding in this manner.

I actually have read the visual novels, and I do understand the context for these events. That doesn't mean that I think it's a realistic interpretation of what would have happened were an alien invasion force to attack the planet during this time period in this geographic region. Shockingly, it's possible to read something and still disagree with the conclusions the author arrived at. Quite frankly, I don't think it's even important for it to be realistic; I was just observing that there would be a reasonable explanation for why the author could arrive at this conjecture.

Beyond that...I think you're making far more assumptions about a casual comment I made than were either necessary or appropriate, and were rather rude about it, as well. If I hadn't already read the visual novels, all your comments would have done is compel me to never read them.
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Posted 1/12/16

RaptorSushi wrote:
And I urge you to read the actual source material from the visual novels to get a better understanding of what's going.


Not picking on your post but just as a jumping point to say any adaptation that forces you to refer back to the source material to understand events isn't being adapted well. Ideally an adaptation should be able to stand on its own, providing a strong enough retelling that it virtually compels people to want to visit the source material to go even deeper into the story and characters. The moment an adaptation says "go back to the source material and you'll understand" it has stumbled badly. An anime like Steins:Gate is a great example of a well executed adaptation. It stands up on its own and has moved people to want to purchase the visual novel to learn even more about its world.
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Posted 1/12/16 , edited 1/12/16
while i'm looking forward to this series, i'm hoping it's a success so that maybe an adaption of the original Muv Luv Alternative VN gets some form of adaptation as well in the future.
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Posted 1/12/16 , edited 1/12/16

imaginarycreatures wrote:


a realistic interpretation of what would have happened were an alien invasion force to attack the planet during this time period in this geographic region


lol


domvina wrote:

Not picking on your post but just as a jumping point to say any adaptation that forces you to refer back to the source material to understand events isn't being adapted well. Ideally an adaptation should be able to stand on its own, providing a strong enough retelling that it virtually compels people to want to visit the source material to go even deeper into the story and characters. The moment an adaptation says "go back to the source material and you'll understand" it has stumbled badly. An anime like Steins:Gate is a great example of a well executed adaptation. It stands up on its own and has moved people to want to purchase the visual novel to learn even more about its world.


The thing is that this isn't an adaptation of the visual novels he's talking about. This is an adaptation of a spin-off of that visual novel. You need to know what's going on in the universe itself in order to really get this, and if you haven't read the main series, of course you'd do well to read it before jumping to a lore-filled spin-off.
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Posted 1/12/16 , edited 1/12/16

Saemonza wrote:


imaginarycreatures wrote:


a realistic interpretation of what would have happened were an alien invasion force to attack the planet during this time period in this geographic region


lol


Well, if you read on a couple of sentences, I said:


Quite frankly, I don't think it's even important for it to be realistic


The person I was responding to was arguing that the behavior portrayed *was* realistic, and criticized me for failing to take into account the impact an alien invasion would have on the actions of the East German secret police. I was responding by saying that I disagreed with that, but that I also didn't think it was important.

I honestly don't think its important at all that it be realistic; to me, I disliked the portrayal of them because they looked cartoonishly evil, not because it was unrealistic. It wasn't a deal-breaker for me, but I could understand someone having a problem with it.

That said, I did generally enjoy the show, but I fear it will suffer the same fate as pretty much all the MLA spin-offs. I haven't really cared for any of them.
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Posted 1/12/16

imaginarycreatures wrote:

The person I was responding to was arguing that the behavior portrayed *was* realistic, and criticized me for failing to take into account the impact an alien invasion would have on the actions of the East German secret police. I was responding by saying that I disagreed with that, but that I also didn't think it was important.

I honestly don't think its important at all that it be realistic; to me, I disliked the portrayal of them because they looked cartoonishly evil, not because it was unrealistic. It wasn't a deal-breaker for me, but I could understand someone having a problem with it.

That said, I did generally enjoy the show, but I fear it will suffer the same fate as pretty much all the MLA spin-offs. I haven't really cared for any of them.


Judging by what I've read, people have a hard time naming any actual "evil" character in Muv-Luv, including this series. If that's the case, I'm guessing there may be more to them than that single execution scene showed. Maybe they are cartoonishly evil.

Only thing I know for sure is that they really toned down that body in the TSF.

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Posted 1/12/16

Saemonza wrote:
The thing is that this isn't an adaptation of the visual novels he's talking about. This is an adaptation of a spin-off of that visual novel. You need to know what's going on in the universe itself in order to really get this, and if you haven't read the main series, of course you'd do well to read it before jumping to a lore-filled spin-off.


To which I would feel compelled to respond with "The Force Awakens". While it's true watching the original Star Wars Trilogy would give you a deeper understanding of the characters and lore The Force Awakens stands on its own. It is in effect a "spin-off" of the original Star Wars but still provides sufficient context that even if you are brand new to the franchise you don't come away completely confused.

A writer jumping to the conclusion that all viewers will have a grasp of the story's universe is like slamming the door in the face of people who are not. A poor decision as it not only turns away a significant group but also could quite likely deter them from delving into the original source material. Adaptations not only act on their own but are usually expected to help push sales of the source material. A good example of this was the Ender's Game movie which was accompanied by a re-release of the book which saw decent sales despite the controversy.
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Posted 1/12/16 , edited 1/12/16

domvina wrote:

To which I would feel compelled to respond with "The Force Awakens". While it's true watching the original Star Wars Trilogy would give you a deeper understanding of the characters and lore The Force Awakens stands on its own. It is in effect a "spin-off" of the original Star Wars but still provides sufficient context that even if you are brand new to the franchise you don't come away completely confused.

A writer jumping to the conclusion that all viewers will have a grasp of the story's universe is like slamming the door in the face of people who are not. A poor decision as it not only turns away a significant group but also could quite likely deter them from delving into the original source material. Adaptations not only act on their own but are usually expected to help push sales of the source material. A good example of this was the Ender's Game movie which was accompanied by a re-release of the book which saw decent sales despite the controversy.


Sounds like you just want this spin-off to spoonfeed outsiders.
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Posted 1/12/16 , edited 1/12/16

Saemonza wrote:


domvina wrote:

To which I would feel compelled to respond with "The Force Awakens". While it's true watching the original Star Wars Trilogy would give you a deeper understanding of the characters and lore The Force Awakens stands on its own. It is in effect a "spin-off" of the original Star Wars but still provides sufficient context that even if you are brand new to the franchise you don't come away completely confused.

A writer jumping to the conclusion that all viewers will have a grasp of the story's universe is like slamming the door in the face of people who are not. A poor decision as it not only turns away a significant group but also could quite likely deter them from delving into the original source material. Adaptations not only act on their own but are usually expected to help push sales of the source material. A good example of this was the Ender's Game movie which was accompanied by a re-release of the book which saw decent sales despite the controversy.


Sounds like you just want this spin-off to spoonfeed outsiders.


I don't think it's unjustified to ask a series released to the general public to have the ability to convey the important portions of its plot and history to the general public. Depth of detail isn't required but adequate information so that the phrase "And I urge you to read the actual source material from the visual novels to get a better understanding of what's going" needs to be said.

If every series based on a visual novel, light novel, or manga decided to gate its premise behind the assumption all or even a majority of the viewers had knowledge of the source material many quite popular series would not have enjoyed the success they achieved. It's the fact they struck a balance between providing sufficient information for the unfamiliar viewer to still get a solid grasp on the story and characters but not holding up the pacing of the story so that those already familiar would be turned away that they achieved acclaim as well as aiding in driving the franchise as a whole to greater popularity.
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Posted 1/12/16

domvina wrote:

I don't think it's unjustified to ask a series released to the general public to have the ability to convey the important portions of its plot and history to the general public. Depth of detail isn't required but adequate information so that the phrase "And I urge you to read the actual source material from the visual novels to get a better understanding of what's going" needs to be said.

If every series based on a visual novel, light novel, or manga decided to gate its premise behind the assumption all or even a majority of the viewers had knowledge of the source material many quite popular series would not have enjoyed the success they achieved. It's the fact they struck a balance between providing sufficient information for the unfamiliar viewer to still get a solid grasp on the story and characters but not holding up the pacing of the story so that those already familiar would be turned away that they achieved acclaim as well as aiding in driving the franchise as a whole to greater popularity.


The writers don't need to re-cover a whole bunch of stuff that they took plenty of time in the original series to explain, thus annoying current fans with gross regurgitation of already-known information, just to pander to lazy or impatient newcomers who can't even be bothered to read the original series.

That's ridiculous. If you're lost on this show, it's because you chose to watch a spin-off of a complicated story and have no one to blame but yourself.
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