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Post Reply Transgender people
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Posted 1/24/16

Nalaniel wrote:

Trans people existed 2000 years ago. I'm sure there were other things to worry about, too. Doesn't make this less bothersome.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.
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Posted 1/24/16

XxDarkSasuxX wrote:


Nalaniel wrote:

Trans people existed 2000 years ago. I'm sure there were other things to worry about, too. Doesn't make this less bothersome.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.


The issue is not as insignificant as you might think. But well, guess I won't change your mind anytime soon.
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Posted 1/24/16

Nalaniel wrote:

The issue is not as insignificant as you might think. But well, guess I won't change your mind anytime soon.

Doubtful. If rhetoric could change my mind, I would be a Christian right now.

Glad you ended this here; I was about to dismiss myself from the argument myself.
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Posted 1/24/16

XxDarkSasuxX wrote:


Nalaniel wrote:

The issue is not as insignificant as you might think. But well, guess I won't change your mind anytime soon.

Doubtful. If rhetoric could change my mind, I would be a Christian right now.

Glad you ended this here; I was about to dismiss myself from the argument myself.


Good to know.
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Posted 1/24/16
Never see them so I only know what I see online or what I have been told(My EX "teached" me a lot about the internet...)
But I have to say no to insurance. I don't think on trumps another and there are many disorders that does not get that treatment either. The only thing I have opposed it is glorifying it. I think that is kind of happening right now and I'm not so fond of that. As for the trans people themselves, I don't really have much of an opinion. For me it really comes down the person itself. As much as I can, people are not perfect.

Only time other things come to play is when it's about personal relationships(not friends).

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Posted 1/24/16
The only problem I have with transgenders is how easily offended some of them seem to be. I understand that they think that us cisgender indviduals should be more sensitive with the words we say with regards to being transgender, the pronouns we use, etc., but some consideration also has to come from their side. While transgenderism isn't exactly something new to our world at present, it's still something that is taking some time to accept and fully understand (I don't mean this in the sense that it's something so "out there" that it's uncomprehendable, but in the sense that cisgenders obviously don't understand the troubles of transgenders until you let us know about them), just like other things that most people don't consider to be "normal in nature." There are a lot of people out there that stick to the more "traditional" ways of thinking. I know that sucks, and that they should really be more open-minded about things, but we all know that neither side is going to go out of their way to be more considerate for the other, so just give it time.

I think of transgender people as they are: people too. I think this way because that's exactly how I should. I don't care about any of those dumb little variables: gender, age, religion, nationality, blah, blah, blah. People are people regardless of any of that. As much as I think that you should be happy with who you were born as, if a person is genuinely unhappy with how they are, then I don't see a problem with deciding to undergo transformation. I believe that everyone has the right to do whatever they please with their bodies, because it's theirs and no one elses. They shouldn't be judged nor treated differently for making decisions for themselves alone. It's not mutilation, it's customization. Naturally, every human that isn't harming any other humans deserves to be treated with dignity.

With that being said, I don't know what to think with regards to insurance. I think that people should be able to align their physical sex with whatever they feel their gender is inside without any costs, but it's not quite right to make the government pay for services to correct something that wasn't their fault. If you were a female born into a body of the male sex, it's not the fault of the government that that's what nature, luck, the gods, or whatever you believe is or isn't out there decided. I'd have to think more about this.
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Posted 1/24/16


Oh well; I tried I was hoping for a different response, but I'll leave it at that.
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Posted 1/24/16

Humms wrote:



Oh well; I tried I was hoping for a different response, but I'll leave it at that.


I'm not sure what sort of response you were looking for. I find some of your opinions to be contrary to known facts. From my perspective it would be rather poor of me not to offer the information I have. If you choose to ignore it after that, that's fine, I did my part. If someone sincerely believes the world is flat, I will offer what scientific data I have to show it is not. If they persist, that is their choice but I did my part.
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Posted 1/24/16 , edited 1/24/16

LordDust wrote:


Humms wrote:



Oh well; I tried I was hoping for a different response, but I'll leave it at that.


I'm not sure what sort of response you were looking for. I find some of your opinions to be contrary to known facts. From my perspective it would be rather poor of me not to offer the information I have. If you choose to ignore it after that, that's fine, I did my part. If someone sincerely believes the world is flat, I will offer what scientific data I have to show it is not. If they persist, that is their choice but I did my part.


Oh boy, I really wanted to leave it at that, I really did well done sir.

Common sense is a fascinating thing. The world isn't flat, and I know that by using common sense, you don't need facts to support it.

What I wanted you to understand is simply this.

Brainwashing

What you know and what you convey may be factual, but the real issue isn't what we have collected, it is what we have overlooked. I'll bring up what I have said before, people are lazy!

Instead of changing their life and accepting their bodies they will support their own depression until someone else tells them that it's completely fine, and we're here to help you get through this. So we have psychologists. Psychologists, such a fascinating profession, the ability to implant an idea that will correct depression, Hmm. The fact that we understand why people are depressed, so we just listen to others speak about their problems, agreeing with them, going along with them, until they begin to invade their thoughts with praise and sympathy, ultimately finding the so called problem. Maybe take a few pills that doctors prescribe to make you feel worse, whatever works right?

Depression stems from how people are raised. Depression is when we can't find others that accept us. Depression is simply feeling like we are Worthless, invalid, useless, and the word of the day......DIFFERENT. correcting nature's mistake? That's what we're talking about, no? I don't feel right in my body, I don't feel right having a males face, I don't feel right being assigned a gender, I don't feel right about anything I do in my current body, every time I raise my hand or move my legs, even when I smile I feel wrong. This is what we're talking about? Yes?

But the facts are there right? People, from the dawn of time, from the moment humanity was created, we have felt out of place, we have felt uncomfortable in our body. The moment people are born they have that idea implanted in their mind that will act like a time bomb, ticking away. Humanity will always find a problem, humanity will never change, even though we want it to change, but don't worry, I'll feel a hell of a lot better knowing I told someone to take away their reproductive organ to be happy, and years down the line when people become sterile and unable to pass down future generations, we can finally say that equality really changed the world for the good, for the better.

But it's ok. I accept transgenders now, you finally made me realize something. The world always wins, and the world will always make the right decision, so might as well go along with it, because facts and logic will always win in any situation.


........end of transmission...........
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Posted 1/24/16

Humms wrote:


LordDust wrote:


Humms wrote:



Oh well; I tried I was hoping for a different response, but I'll leave it at that.


I'm not sure what sort of response you were looking for. I find some of your opinions to be contrary to known facts. From my perspective it would be rather poor of me not to offer the information I have. If you choose to ignore it after that, that's fine, I did my part. If someone sincerely believes the world is flat, I will offer what scientific data I have to show it is not. If they persist, that is their choice but I did my part.


Oh boy, I really wanted to leave it at that, I really did well done sir.

Common sense is a fascinating thing. The world isn't flat, and I know that by using common sense, you don't need facts to support it.

What I wanted you to understand is simply this.

Brainwashing

What you know and what you convey may be factual, but the real issue isn't what we have collected, it is what we have overlooked. I'll bring up what I have said before, people are lazy!

Instead of changing their life and accepting their bodies they will support their own depression until someone else tells them that it's completely fine, and we're here to help you get through this. So we have psychologists. Psychologists, such a fascinating profession, the ability to implant an idea that will correct depression, Hmm. The fact that we understand why people are depressed, so we just listen to others speak about their problems, agreeing with them, going along with them, until they begin to invade their thoughts with praise and sympathy, ultimately finding the so called problem. Maybe take a few pills that doctors prescribe to make you feel worse, whatever works right?

Depression stems from how people are raised. Depression is when we can't find others that accept us. Depression is simply feeling like we are Worthless, invalid, useless, and the word of the day......DIFFERENT. correcting nature's mistake? That's what we're talking about, no? I don't feel right in my body, I don't feel right having a males face, I don't feel right being assigned a gender, I don't feel right about anything I do in my current body, every time I raise my hand or move my legs, even when I smile I feel wrong. This is what we're talking about? Yes?

But the facts are there right? People, from the dawn of time, from the moment humanity was created, we have felt out of place, we have felt uncomfortable in our body. The moment people are born they have that idea implanted in their mind that will act like a time bomb, ticking away. Humanity will always find a problem, humanity will never change, even though we want it to change, but don't worry, I'll feel a hell of a lot better knowing I told someone to take away their reproductive organ to be happy, and years down the line when people become sterile and unable to pass down future generations, we can finally say that equality really changed the world for the good, for the better.

But it's ok. I accept transgenders now, you finally made me realize something. The world always wins, and the world will always make the right decision, so might as well go along with it, because facts and logic will always win in any situation.


........end of transmission...........


You repeatedly state things that are incorrect as though they are facts. I've tried to point this out to you, but you seem insistent on assuming that the accumulated wealth of scientific findings in this field are wrong and that all of us that believe them are brain washed. This is not a likely scenario and there is very little evidence to support that this sort of thing is reasonable. This is no different from saying that computers are powered by trapped magical faeries because electricity isn't real and neither are batteries. The "facts" supporting these things are obviously mass delusions and physics is mistaken.

I am not concerned about whether or not you accept transgenders. You can disapprove, dislike, and even decry them as a sign of the apocalypse. I believe in your freedom to do so. I personally think it is a bit boorish to do so, but that doesn't mean much really. I am not trying to persuade you that you should accept them at all. Some of what you write makes it clear that you either do not know much about the methods used to study things like psychological disorders and their causes or you for some reason believe you know better. If you do not believe in the value of the scientific method and you believe that entire fields can be this wrong, I'm confused about how you can believe in any evidence at all besides your own senses (which we all know can often be deceived).
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I do believe in science, I do believe in logic, physics, mathematics, evolution, because it is the truth of our world that humanity has figured out, CONSTANTS, I am not ignorant of the world around me. What I don't believe in are people and humans themselves, they are inconsistent, they cannot be logically defined, they cannot logically be helped through statistics and tests, they are only helped through interaction and connection, which is why a method; that of a scientific and logical standpoint is simply wrong to support such a topic of transgender, and it is the reason I have stated that brainwashing is the only outcome for the solution. We try to figure out what makes people think a certain way, why they kill, why they change themselves, why they feel, act. Go ahead and tell us which part of the brain will do this, because we can, and we can tell you what part of the brain does this, but you will never understand the human mind, logic can only go so far, and I simply believe that we will never find a constant for it, therfore I do not know better, I simply said what needed to be said.

This is great I appreciate your enthusiasm towards my Cynical behavior, but a good conversation nonetheless.

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Humms wrote:

I do believe in science, I do believe in logic, physics, mathematics, evolution, because it is the truth of our world that humanity has figured out, CONSTANTS, I am not ignorant of the world around me. What I don't believe in are people and humans themselves, they are inconsistent, they cannot be logically defined, they cannot logically be helped through statistics and tests, they are only helped through interaction and connection, which is why a method; that of a scientific and logical standpoint is simply wrong to support such a topic of transgender, and it is the reason I have stated that brainwashing is the only outcome for the solution. We try to figure out what makes people think a certain way, why they kill, why they change themselves, why they feel, act. Go ahead and tell us which part of the brain will do this, because we can, and we can tell you what part of the brain does this, but you will never understand the human mind, logic can only go so far, and I simply believe that we will never find a constant for it, therfore I do not know better, I simply said what needed to be said.

This is great I appreciate your enthusiasm towards my Cynical behavior, but a good conversation nonetheless.



Science can completely explain the entirety of human behavior and emotion, we just aren't there yet. The brain is a mass of cells that either fire an impulse or don't: binary. The thing is, we are nowhere near being able to make a processor that can match the combination of rate and quantity of the firing in the brain. Computers are bad at "maybe" and ambivalence (i.e. fuzzy logic) because they can only have so many ones and zeros to play with, our brains blow them out of the water. Yes, the chemical mixture that controls the firing is way more complicated than the actual firing, but the firing is the actual process by which those biological computers operate. The mind is just the software running on that hardware. We voluntarily slow the progress of our understanding in order to behave in the manner widely accepted as ethical with the areas of study pertaining to this. So these are relatively young sciences (psychology and also neuroscience) that are shackled by more restrictions on how they conduct inquiry because of the moral implications inherently tangled in the subject matter. We do know some things as hands down facts about both neuroscience and the human mind, but much of it is still evolving and imperfect models. Just because we know a model is not as refined as it could be does not mean we should not use it. We would have to throw out a lot of science, some with practical applications, if that were the standard.

Statistics and tests are some of the tools that allow us to accumulate data. We can then use that to form models, which we can test and also use to better narrow down what data we should be accumulating. We discard models that don't work, refine models that work imperfectly, and continue the relentless march of science through carefully guided inquiry. We can already remotely control a human's physical functions (pretty cool stuff, look it up sometime). We can induce sensory reactions through digital means so that we can replace some sensory organs. We have even created new senses in humans (though body hacking like that is pretty fringe, so there it is harder to get data, most universities and labs won't support it). Our understanding of how the brain works is rapidly expanding. We will get there so long as we don't wipe ourselves out or experience a big enough extinction level event we can't manage to ensure part of the species survives it.

Once again, I don't expect you to agree with me about whether or not to support surgery for transgenders. I am mystified by the idea that something subject to the laws of our world could somehow be eternally beyond the purview of science. It also still seems as though you question the validity of psychology as a science in entirety.

I am simply enthusiastic about knowledge and debate, debate being a good way to refine and test both knowledge and the presentation thereof.
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Posted 1/25/16


Fair enough. I agree that there is a science for pretty much everything in our world, but I do not see psychology as a science since it deals with the human mind. Until it is proven 100% this will likely be my definitive answer, just as the universe itself, all we can do is continue to crunch and pursue the possibilities.
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Posted 1/25/16

Humms wrote:

Fair enough. I agree that there is a science for pretty much everything in our world, but I do not see psychology as a science since it deals with the human mind. Until it is proven 100% this will likely be my definitive answer, just as the universe itself, all we can do is continue to crunch and pursue the possibilities.


I would argue that 100% proven is an unreasonable standard. Many scientific fields regularly use theories and models that are not 100% proven. In addition, successful practical applications that can be repeated at will demonstrate reliably that field is making good progress and is already useful. Look into psychological applications for marketing. You will likely be surprised by how far the science has come toward manipulating groups of people into desired actions. It is actually bordering on the precursor for some sort of dystopia. Personally, I think it would be good for most people to learn a bit about that as knowing about it is one of the few ways to short circuit those methods. Given that these techniques have enabled corporations to move from making decent money to making orders of magnitude larger, that is pretty powerful and proven stuff.
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Posted 1/25/16 , edited 1/25/16

LordDust wrote:


Humms wrote:

Fair enough. I agree that there is a science for pretty much everything in our world, but I do not see psychology as a science since it deals with the human mind. Until it is proven 100% this will likely be my definitive answer, just as the universe itself, all we can do is continue to crunch and pursue the possibilities.


I would argue that 100% proven is an unreasonable standard. Many scientific fields regularly use theories and models that are not 100% proven. In addition, successful practical applications that can be repeated at will demonstrate reliably that field is making good progress and is already useful. Look into psychological applications for marketing. You will likely be surprised by how far the science has come toward manipulating groups of people into desired actions. It is actually bordering on the precursor for some sort of dystopia. Personally, I think it would be good for most people to learn a bit about that as knowing about it is one of the few ways to short circuit those methods. Given that these techniques have enabled corporations to move from making decent money to making orders of magnitude larger, that is pretty powerful and proven stuff.


Understandable, but you catch my drift. Now if we're talking about marketing, then demonstrating such reliable theories and methods in that type of field is much more prominent. I myself love the idea of manipulation of the market and I keep a very close eye on such things as of late. Don't get me wrong, I will always embrace the fact that psychology is destined to be a way of understanding the human psyche. Now whether that be scientific, or just pure human nature, that is still to be determined. Regardless, if we are talking about a profit margin you better believe it will prove to be a great asset.
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