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Post Reply Transgender people
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Posted 2/5/16

XxDarkSasuxX wrote:


LordDust wrote:

My reason for debating issues is sometimes to attempt to educate, sometimes an attempt to persuade, and most often an attempt to better understand others' stances while refining my own views. Most people hold the views they do for reasons that have little to do with facts so persuasion is often a lost cause anyway.
I agree with the last bit about reasons for debate. I don't try to educate or persuade people as I know that is usually a lost cause.


Sorry if it seems pedantic to you, but I am rather specific about most things when I have a choice. The way I categorize things requires that I correct issues in my schema as I find them. This tends to carry over into most things. The helicopter example makes no sense because in my mind it isn't even related.
It is actually very related as it is adding non-functional parts to the body with the sole purpose of changing the appearance of said individual. The reason you do not see the connection is because you will not see the connection.

Functional sex organs are not a requirement for being male or female unless you declare everyone without them to be gender neutral.
False. I'm going to try to not have to result to yelling fallacy left and right, but I'm going to need you to either level with me or try to understand what I'm saying more. I don't believe that the concept of transgenderism is as black and white as male, female, and gender neutral. So don't tell me that that is what I said.

I said, and all I said, was that Sexual Reassignment Surgery is not currently advanced enough to do anything more than make someone feel more like the opposite sex. I am also not going to refer to a man as a woman simply because that is his wish; however many emotional spins you take on each situation is not going to change that.

A propeller doesn't make one a helicopter, but functional sex organs are not a requirement to be a woman or a man medically or even biologically.
Actually, yes they are. I'll go ahead and dumb this down for the sake of clarity. Males have copulated with females to procreate since the beginning of the male/female dichotomy on this planet. Aside from rare cases, this is how it has always been.

Now that this has been clarified, I am glad that you agree with me that adding a non functional part is not going to change what that individual is or was born as.

Women have been born such that they have vaginas that do not produce lubricant. Some are not born with a properly formed vagina and have surgery to correct this. Not all women have functional ovaries. I find classifying the way you do inconsistent rather than accurate, for me it is a bit like a sore tooth.
Once again, case by case situation. I'm not going to declare someone who was born a female a man simply because they were also born barren. There is no set of rules that one can just lay down to determine one's sex. I simply gave you a simplified list and you are taking it far above what I tried to convey.

You try to pay it no mind, but it is mildly irritating. Please don't take that as any sort of reflection on you though, it is just how my brain works grating against something that doesn't jive with it.
Then, despite what you say, you are clearly not taking my side too seriously. And that's fine, but I'm not going to sit here and pretend that there is enough advancement in the field to be more correct than the other end of the spectrum. You can take the moral high road all that you like, if that makes you feel superior, but I'm not going to make any changes to my line of thought simply because for right now it just makes other people feel better.


The bit about a male developing secondary sex characteristics can indeed happen. Some men produce a little too much estrogen, but this doesn't impact them much day to day. If they lose one or both testicles due to injury or cancer they can develop breasts. For a fictional example of a real world thing think "Bitch Tits Bob" from Fight Club. In the real world though, guys that suffer that usually looked a pinch more feminine to start with.
And once again, I will clarify that it is a case by case situation. To say that people with this condition are in the minorities is an understatement.


There is still research that needs to be done, but in the meantime we need to work with what we have. The only moral position I take is the prevailing and accepted medical one.
Except you are taking your position too far and prematurely declaring the other side to be wrong.

As I have said, I know just about as much of it as you do; I have maybe not as much (if you actively looked into this) but at least a solid amount of knowledge to go on. I came by my decision and you came by yours. My, your, or both of our stances can change with a single breakthrough.

Depression is about feelings. Those feelings can affect your health and result in very poor decisions or pervasive apathy due to an inability to cope. I don't see that as being significantly different from how gender dysmorphic disorder impacts these people in terms of outcomes. In both cases the disorders are "just feelings". Depression too was around long before we medically identified it and studied it. There was a time when people were expected to just get by with that as well. We obviously do not have data from before either disorder was medically studied outside of anecdotal things. I do think that based on what we know it is likely that most people simply either led worse and less productive lives as they struggled with it, committed suicide, or were killed (for both disorders outside of certain cultures, some native peoples for example supported transgenders).
Except the two conditions are incomparable.

Yes, depression has been found to coexist along side with people struggling with transgenderism, but that does not mean everybody with the condition also suffers from depression. The main difference is that many people are faking transgenderism as it is currently the status quo to do so. Yes, people fake depression but it's generally pretty easy to tell if someone is actually depressed or not.

I do not see why we should treat them differently. Generally the same standard of care is applied across the field. If there were a surgical intervention that improved outcomes for two thirds of depression sufferers that were not treatable through medication and therapy it would most likely be approved. This wouldn't give this sort of thing to the 90% you are speaking of. Only those who have been seen by a psychologist or psychiatrist for the mandated period (a year in most jurisdictions, some areas already have rules and some insurance companies cover it) would be able to qualify and only if said professional approved them for it. They would have to be medically qualified, they couldn't just ask for it.
And that's fine by me, but that's treatment of depression. I still do not care to pay for someone to surgically alter their body to make them look like what they want to look like.


I think that I understand your position for the most part now, so thank you for taking the time to explain your views more fully. As to taxes in general, that morass is horrifying and in desperate need of redress. The amounts already wasted on far less worthy causes than mental health and quality of life are stratospheric, but that would be an entirely new topic.
On this, I can pretty much agree.

Sorry if my views do, indeed, offend you or anybody reading this. Once again, I am not claiming to know more than anybody and I am not trying to hurt the feelings of anyone who might have to do with the topic. It's just my view on things, right now, with what little I do know.

Think I'm going to withdraw for now. Was a great talk though, Dust.

I would like to take issue with some of your replies, but I will respect your desire to withdraw from the conversation. To clarify, I don't really look at this morally so I don't see you as a bad person or feel superior to you, so please do not believe I think poorly of you or that I am offended by your position.
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Posted 2/5/16

LordDust wrote:
The data from several reputable sources shows that 2/3rds have positive outcomes for post op transexuals. I do not see how the comparison is illogical at all absent the misunderstanding.


Show me the data, because that is exactly what I consider false.

There is no data from a single reputable source to confirm what you are saying, and even what the hell you are comparing it to.

2/3rds "aren't depressed" anymore?

2/3rds are "cured" of something?

2/3rds more are happy than pre-ops?

What?


LordDust wrote:
For the youths, surgical intervention also requires the age of eighteen to even begin that path in every jurisdiction I am aware of. Parents don't get to unilaterally decide that. The current system doesn't allow for it and I would not support changes to make that possible.


http://www.cnn.com/2011/09/27/health/transgender-kids/
http://nymag.com/news/features/transgender-children-2012-6/index2.html
http://www.imatyfa.org/resources/healthcare-practitioners/how-young-is-too-young/

I'm honestly not pulling this shit outta thin air. This has happened. Here in America, even. You don't really seem to understand the system.
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Posted 2/5/16 , edited 2/5/16

LordDust wrote:
I would like to take issue with some of your replies, but I will respect your desire to withdraw from the conversation. To clarify, I don't really look at this morally so I don't see you as a bad person or feel superior to you, so please do not believe I think poorly of you or that I am offended by your position.


And though that's directed at him, I still think that's what makes this awesome.

People flinging ideas about in a rational manner and who are open to dialogue are the ones that have competing ideas, and competing ideas means that ideas evolve.

[EDIT] What I mean there is, due to our atheism, many of us are naturally skeptical from all points of view, and will want to be convinced rather than go on blind faith.
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Posted 2/5/16
(Also, sorry for not quoting everything, still technically at work, hahaha. I'll get to reading it all soon.)
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Posted 2/5/16

sarteck wrote:


To my knowledge, the actual surgery is not allowed until they are eighteen. Puberty blocking drugs were allowed last I had read, apparently some jurisdictions do now allow the hormonal therapy to begin. They do however still require a qualified mental health provider to be involved.

The last time I saw the data it showed that roughly two thirds were happier and better adjusted. Apparently the numbers have risen since then. There are also no reputable sources to my knowledge showing high suicide rates post op. There are links to data here: http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/28110/does-gender-reassignment-surgery-increase-quality-of-life-of-transgender-individ

I no longer have access to the white paper databases I used to use as I am not currently enrolled at nor am I employed by a university at the moment. The access fees are not in my budget at this time. I miss my links and regret that I did not copy down all the citations into something readily searchable. I apologize for not tracking down my citation for the original number, but pouring through eight years of papers to find citations isn't happening anytime soon.
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Posted 2/5/16

LordDust wrote:

To my knowledge, the actual surgery is not allowed until they are eighteen. Puberty blocking drugs were allowed last I had read, apparently some jurisdictions do now allow the hormonal therapy to begin. They do however still require a qualified mental health provider to be involved.

The last time I saw the data it showed that roughly two thirds were happier and better adjusted. Apparently the numbers have risen since then. There are also no reputable sources to my knowledge showing high suicide rates post op. There are links to data here: http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/28110/does-gender-reassignment-surgery-increase-quality-of-life-of-transgender-individ

I no longer have access to the white paper databases I used to use as I am not currently enrolled at nor am I employed by a university at the moment. The access fees are not in my budget at this time. I miss my links and regret that I did not copy down all the citations into something readily searchable. I apologize for not tracking down my citation for the original number, but pouring through eight years of papers to find citations isn't happening anytime soon.


I'm glad you linked that, because I actually read the entire thread, comments included, several days ago.

Let me begin to quote the fallacies and discrepancies.



Surely considerable aspects of "quality of life" are subjective. Do you propose a way to objective tell someone that they are wrong about their own feeling? – dmckee Jun 16 '15 at 23:08


Very important.


those transgendered who have not undergone surgery, reliable numbers on those will be impossible to obtain, as those might be from cultures where transgender is a taboo and they might have been hiding it from everyone (possibly including themselves). – gerrit Jun 17 '15 at 15:09


Very important.

Now from the abstracts of the studies themselves, for which I'm not going to pay to read the full thing.


80% of individuals with GID reported significant improvement in gender dysphoria [...]; 78% reported significant improvement in psychological symptoms [...]; 80% reported significant improvement in quality of life [...]; and 72% reported significant improvement in sexual function [...].


So these people were not analyzed by licensed psychiatrists, but self-diagnosed themselves as "better?" How very subjective, these "undeniable beneficial effects" are.

Furthermore, absolutely NONE of these studies seems to have monitored patients over any length of time.

Also interesting how much the figures clash: http://waltheyer.typepad.com/blog/2013/11/20-regret-changing-genders-over-40attempt-suicide-and-even-after-surgery-a-large-number-remain-traum.html
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Posted 2/22/16 , edited 2/22/16
I think it is important to keep in mind that sex and gender are not the same thing, and that gender is not a biological term but purely a psycho/sociological one that has been borrowed from a grammatical term.

Gender and sex do tend to align, but they do not always; the prevailing opinion is that this is due to a complex combination of environmental and biological factors. The same general sort of thing happens with our personalities, sexual preference, and the like. As such, the only natural course that I can see is acceptance. Because of how complex it is, it isn't really something that can be cured (as in a physically male that feels female being made to feel male), just as gays can't be made straight and personalities can't (reliably, intentionally) be changed.

Should gender reassignment surgeries and hormone therapies be covered by the public/insurance? I think so, yes, just as I think anti-depressants should be covered for the depressed. There is the option of improving quality of life for many by having everyone chip in a little, or leaving a number of individuals to fend for themselves. It just seems cruel to me, and I don't see how anyone can live with themselves when they could help but don't. Of course, people looking to have any such treatment should undergo observation by a trained professional - the risk of someone going through with such a major thing on a whim or passing phase does exist, even though it doesn't account for a majority of trans people.

I have a soft spot for transgendered people, honestly. I can relate in a way, because I've been told and treated in some of the same ways that trans people have: that I've only deluded myself, that my identity is wrong or whatever. Still, I can't claim to understand them. I'm not transgender myself, and so I don't think I can ever know precisely how it feels. Hell, I'm not sure I feel like any gender.

I use the persons preferred pronouns. Honestly, I would prefer that English only have gender neutral pronouns like some languages, but that isn't the case. I don't see the problem with using whatever pronoun the other person wants. It is easy.


sarteck wrote:

Show me the data, because that is exactly what I consider false.

There is no data from a single reputable source to confirm what you are saying, and even what the hell you are comparing it to.

2/3rds "aren't depressed" anymore?

2/3rds are "cured" of something?

2/3rds more are happy than pre-ops?

What?


(to be honest, I just sorta quoted something general to engage you on the topic, as I don't intend to leap directly into the argument with others)

It's important to keep in mind that minds are very, very complex. You can make someone's situation easier, better, but that doesn't mean that will no longer feel suicidal - and not all suicides by post-op transgenders will be because of their gender dysphoria. It could be because of social isolation, maltreatment by others, pressures at work or in love life, or anything that troubles others. As such, I think that suicides by post-ops shouldn't be viewed as evidence that gender reassignment isn't effective. What you linked (http://waltheyer.typepad.com/blog/2013/11/20-regret-changing-genders-over-40attempt-suicide-and-even-after-surgery-a-large-number-remain-traum.html
), and what it linked subsequently, doesn't really provide a very sound basis for its claim that a fifth of patients regret their gender transition, so I'll discount it until further evidence is provided on that front - but even should it be the case, there are a number of other explanations that could exist.

The trans population has higher rates of suicide and substance abuse than the general population: for all your material suggests, there could be a drop in suicide rates for individuals who have undergone the surgery. Substance abuse and poverty are also very, very closely tied to suicide - the substance abuse could worsen pre-existing depression and the financial strain of such habits along with the costs of hormone replacement and surgery could be the nail in the coffin rather than the surgery itself.

The evidence, and the logic, seems to support that such treatments do help trans individuals.
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