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Post Reply Swedish centre worker girl stabbed to death by teen refugee
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Posted 1/27/16

sundin13 wrote:

I don't know what the solution to the problem is (certainly do more to ensure prosecution of the individuals committing hate crimes), but it is not allowing crimes to continue going on unchecked and turning a blind eye to them. If you want to avoid putting out a public report somehow on some of this information, sure, thats fine (ish) (depending on local laws), but stuff like this is inexcusable (http://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerscruton/2014/08/30/why-did-british-police-ignore-pakistani-gangs-raping-rotherham-children-political-correctness/#1f9c8a205a7c).


Unfortunately, fear of peers can make good ideas go massively wrong. Enough to make me feel sick sometimes.
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Posted 1/27/16


But people aren't looking at it from the standpoint of equivalency; it's more like "Why should my country help yours if you're going to be a burden?" I've seen a lot of rape / crime increase percentages thrown around, and naturally the media is inclined to publish the most controversial news, so it's hard to tell what's credible.
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Posted 1/27/16 , edited 1/27/16

Morbidhanson wrote:

"Well, not all refugees are like that," they'll say. And nothing will be done until it happens again. And they'll say the same thing.


This is the very thing most people are afraid of saying.
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Posted 1/27/16

sundin13 wrote:


Cola_Colin wrote:


sundin13
However, one key to all this is upholding the law. Far too often we are seeing governments try to sweep things under the rug or ignore problems right in front of their faces in the name of, I don't know, political correctness?

There are indeed some such problems. It's however mainly police forces trying not to give "food" to people who will use whatever they can to push very extreme xenophobic standpoints.
Basically the problem is that just one or two crimes, by one or two refugees easily cause a massive uproar on the level of "all refugees are evil", as one can see even this very thread.
So do you put out a report pointing at a crime by a refugee or not? If you do you are in danger of getting an angry mob that goes and burns down another refugee housing. That's a problem.


I don't know what the solution to the problem is (certainly do more to ensure prosecution of the individuals committing hate crimes), but it is not allowing crimes to continue going on unchecked and turning a blind eye to them. If you want to avoid putting out a public report somehow on some of this information, sure, thats fine (ish) (depending on local laws), but stuff like this is inexcusable (http://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerscruton/2014/08/30/why-did-british-police-ignore-pakistani-gangs-raping-rotherham-children-political-correctness/#1f9c8a205a7c).


I agree there are examples like that which are very certainly completely unacceptable. It's however not the norm at all. The cases I was thinking of were only cases where the police didn't put out big public reports, but certainly did punish criminals. That's a must. In both directions. Embarrassingly the rate at which arson cases are resolved is alarmingly low as well. So if crime goes unpunished I think it is only because of general incompetence, not because there is any influence by the nationality of the criminal.
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Posted 1/27/16
Savages
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Posted 1/27/16
No meantion of nearly full prisons, as in germany (that and transport or where to transport) was quite a problem.
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Posted 1/27/16
The argument that "not all refugees are bad" is true, but it only takes one cancer cell to cause it to spread. As much as I would like to help those that truly seek shelter, I would much rather bar all immigration from those countries and guarantee safety in our own countries. This is obviously an extreme, but if we had no valid way of background checking immigrants it would be the better of the two options.

Seems like many in the US don't understand this situation very well, all that oppose immigrants are labeled as uncultured racists. From what I saw from living in Italy, it seems like it's a nonstop topic in Europe. I can't say from experience because I was in Northern Italy and away from all the immigration camps, but from what was being covered on TV, it looked like there was a heavy increase in crime and violence in the towns surrounding the camps. In addition, there are also many more crimes and rapes happening inside the camps that go unreported.

We'll see how long this lasts, people have to start looking out for themselves and what's best for us. You can't just oppose the government because it's the government and you can't push issues off because it doesn't fit your agenda. I don't understand anymore, it takes a handful of bad cops to ruin everyone's trust, but the large number of immigrant related crime is swept under the rug as "not all are bad".

If articles like this keep popping up, then I see the situation getting worse before it gets better: http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/10/06/no-borders-activist-gang-raped-migrants-pressured-silence-not-damage-cause/
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Posted 1/27/16 , edited 1/27/16
Mid to long term helping more people will yield you more security. Every person you don't help has a tremendous risk of finding "help" from other sides. So a person whose help you now deny might fail to cope with the situation and go insane under the lead of a islamistic terrorist. And insane people like that do pretty bad things that are certainly bad for the security of the whole world.


Freddy96NO wrote:

No meantion of nearly full prisons, as in germany (that and transport or where to transport) was quite a problem.


I am not aware of that. Source?
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Posted 1/27/16 , edited 1/27/16

byClear wrote: I can't say from experience because I was in Northern Italy and away from all the immigration camps, but from what was being covered on TV, it looked like there was a heavy increase in crime and violence in the towns surrounding the camps.

In addition, there are also many more crimes and rapes happening inside the camps that go unreported.
first, they have systems for that and deals (the bad side of market/internet)

the last one is very true, and much children that is no longer or don't know where they are because of reasons.
make them join bad deeds and its more like living under war then anything else (one reason I would not ever want to live in such place) as its just negative things about it.


Cola_Colin wrote:

Freddy96NO wrote:
No meantion of nearly full prisons, as in germany (that and transport or where to transport) was quite a problem.

I am not aware of that. Source?
it has nearly allways been like that in most of europe (as I am aware of)
unoffical I know but I remember an older news but years ago that was on this and a docementry on what to do... forgot its name though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9TOdMzOH1U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfHCuv3Zcrs

http://www.bmi.gv.at/cms/BMI_Asylwesen/statistik/files/Asylstatistik_Oktober_2015.pdf
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Posted 1/27/16 , edited 1/27/16

ayaundwolf wrote:



But people aren't looking at it from the standpoint of equivalency; it's more like "Why should my country help yours if you're going to be a burden?" I've seen a lot of rape / crime increase percentages thrown around, and naturally the media is inclined to publish the most controversial news, so it's hard to tell what's credible.


Well, besides the fact that I think it's rather strange to put it in terms of "my country/your country," why are we so convinced that refugees are necessarily a burden? Could you imagine, for instance, if all of Africa, the Middle East, SE Asia, etc. had the same capacities for production, innovation, education, etc. that 1st world countries enjoy? Inserting people from these countries into a vibrant economy not only helps the people themselves, but also provides more alleys through which we can trade, create, and learn. It's commonly accepted among economists that immigration (even illegal) is almost always a boon to the economy, but refugees are not normal immigrants. They usually aren't financially prepared to travel, and require both resources and time to get on their feet. The problem is that with most of the economic studies I've seen, refugees and immigrants either weren't distinguished, or refugees weren't studied. So I can't tell you for sure whether they're generally a burden or not, but I'm tempted to say that it's likely to improve the world on a whole -- yes, even the countries supporting them -- if refugees are accepted.

Either way, my point is that refugees aren't just a bunch of reckless kids that come in and mooch off mother state. If they're like most immigrants, they will quite probably make some non-trivial contributions to the economy, to say nothing of culture. If you ask, then "why should my country help yours?" it's because doing so would be better for you. The country they're leaving is actually the one losing out. You get more workers, more exchange of ideas, more production capacity, etc. Which isn't to say there aren't problems. Although in the US, immigrants usually commit less crime than the rest of the population, apparently in Europe there actually is a higher crime rate among foreigners. I haven't seen much information on just refugees though, so I can't be sure about it.
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Posted 1/27/16 , edited 1/27/16
Yeah it is hard to find clear sources of crime by refugees. Looking around german sources multiply things can be found:
- claims that the police doesn't tell the full truth. Mainly by sides on rather questionable domains though.
- more reliable media reports from various police statements, that often are mixed. Some say there is more crime, some don't.
- The ones that do say that there is more crime do often say that the crime from refugees foremost is directed at other refugees. Logically that seems reasonable, as refugees in refugees camps have it easiest to, say, steal from other refugees.


Freddy96NO wrote:


byClear wrote: I can't say from experience because I was in Northern Italy and away from all the immigration camps, but from what was being covered on TV, it looked like there was a heavy increase in crime and violence in the towns surrounding the camps.

In addition, there are also many more crimes and rapes happening inside the camps that go unreported.
first, they have systems for that and deals (the bad side of market/internet)

the last one is very true, and much children that is no longer or don't know where they are because of reasons.
make them join bad deeds and its more like living under war then anything else (one reason I would not ever want to live in such place) as its just negative things about it.


Cola_Colin wrote:

Freddy96NO wrote:
No meantion of nearly full prisons, as in germany (that and transport or where to transport) was quite a problem.

I am not aware of that. Source?
it has nearly allways been like that in most of europe (as I am aware of)
unoffical I know but I remember an older news but years ago that was on this and a docementry on what to do... forgot its name though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9TOdMzOH1U

http://www.bmi.gv.at/cms/BMI_Asylwesen/statistik/files/Asylstatistik_Oktober_2015.pdf


The stuff that happened in cologne is bad, I agree. Though mostly a fail of the police. A video like that however is not a source for anything.
The statistics of how many people seek asylum says nothing about the claim you made.
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Posted 1/27/16 , edited 1/27/16

Cola_Colin wrote:
The stuff that happened in cologne is bad, I agree. Though mostly a fail of the police. A video like that however is not a source for anything.

fail of the police? sure that they could have a stronger stance but how would you takle that many people when you are outnumberd and for so long? please tell me what they failed at.

"The statistics of how many people seek asylum says nothing about the claim you made"
you didn't bother to see what it was about did you?..


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Posted 1/27/16
The conditions of asylum should be of good behavior

All serious criminals should be deported, and such policy strictly enforced
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Posted 1/27/16 , edited 1/27/16

nanikore2 wrote: The conditions of asylum should be of good behavior

All serious criminals should be deported, and such policy strictly enforced
only if dreams could become true..
or if it worked that way or rather was that easy.

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Posted 1/27/16

nanikore2 wrote:

The conditions of asylum should be of good behavior

All serious criminals should be deported, and such policy strictly enforced


That won't happen. To many people are scared of offending anyone.

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